Until this AM ....

[Aizen]

Maybe Maria Cantwell? Her being single might hurt her though...

[Wakie]

Unless you are willing to look at the actions of men and women and weigh them equally then this country will remain a nation ruled of the men, by the men, and for the men.

What attacks on Hillary would not have occurred had she been a man?

1. That she was weak.
2. That she was "too political".  Meanwhile she was no more political than Richardson, Biden, or her husband.
3. That she was b***hy.
4. That she is a d**e.
5. That she wouldn't be able to stand up to Congress.

[John Dibble]

Wakie, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to consider it seriously before you answer - all else being equal, would Hillary have even gotten as far as she has if she wasn't a woman? That is to say would she have warranted enough attention as a politician to have even run a campaign for presidency that would have been taken seriously?

[12th Doctor]

"Bring us a real one."

There it is.  A real one.  We want a real woman.

We want a woman we won't call the Ice Queen.  Janet Reno and Golda Meir you're out.
We want a woman we won't call Weak.  Nancy Pelosi and Indira Gandhi you're out.

My guess is that the average age in here is about 25.  The average life expectancy is 75.  This means that most of you will see another 7-10 Presidents in your life.

Unless you are willing to look at the actions of men and women and weigh them equally then this country will remain a nation ruled of the men, by the men, and for the men.

Ecxept that's not what I meant, by "real one" I meant someone who would be politically impressive regardless of gender, race, etc.

[Gabu]

1. That she was weak.

What?  Perhaps you weren't around for the entirety of last year when everyone was trumpeting how her election was completely and utterly inevitable.

2. That she was "too political".  Meanwhile she was no more political than Richardson, Biden, or her husband.

I've never heard that one before.

3. That she was b***hy.

That's because she is.  That has nothing to do with her being a woman.  It has everything to do with her being arrogant and feeling utterly entitled to the nomination and the presidency.  I think that Mitt Romney is an arrogant prick as well; do I think that because Romney is a woman too?

4. That she is a d**e.

Never heard that one before.

5. That she wouldn't be able to stand up to Congress.

Never heard that one before either.

So, you've listed four that I've never once heard seriously asserted to any wide degree and one that has nothing to do with her gender... that's not a very strong argument.

[JSojourner]

There has never been a female politician in American history who has ever delivered a speech which was considered a "great" speech.  

Barbara Jordan.  

I think her famous 1974 speech is considered one of the all time greats.  And one I wish we could revisit in these times...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordanjudiciarystatement.htm


And then, her 1976 DNC speech...well...here it is...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordan1976dnc.html

I would add that Margaret Chase Smith's condemnation of Tailgunner Joe was brilliant.  I very much liked Shirley Chisolm's speeches, particularly in support of the ERA. And though she never ran for office, few people would dispute the rhetorical abilities of Fannie Lou Hamer.

[Wakie]

Wakie, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to consider it seriously before you answer - all else being equal, would Hillary have even gotten as far as she has if she wasn't a woman? That is to say would she have warranted enough attention as a politician to have even run a campaign for presidency that would have been taken seriously?

Well, this cuts to the point that she owes her political prominence to Bill Clinton.

If she had been born as a man and were, perhaps Henry Rodham.  Then I suspect Henry would have become a good friend of Bill Clinton and probably would pursued a legal and political career in Illinois.  I suspect that Henry would have achieved a certain amount of success and, perhaps, would have become a member of the Clinton White House (possibly rising as far as Secretary of Health and Human Services).  You are correct that Henry Rodham probably would not have been a Presidential candidate.

By contrast though, I think if you change Barack Obama to be Beyonce Obama, there is no Presidential campaign.  Similarly if George W Bush were Georgina Bush she is labeled the stereotypical "Dumb Blond" daughter of a Texas millionaire and never makes it to the Governorship of Texas.

[John Dibble]

By contrast though, I think if you change Barack Obama to be Jamila Obama, there is no Presidential campaign.

Why not? I get the one on Georgina Bush - makes perfect sense given he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But what about Obama would make him a failure as a candidate if he was a woman?

[Wakie]

Gabu, if you've never heard those attacks then I wonder where you have been.  So lets talk about what YOUR attacks have been then.  Please list.

JSojourner, you are correct about the Barbara Jordan speeches.  Fantastic speeches delivered by a brilliant woman.  It is a shame that her gender held her back from being Carter's VP.  She would have been a far better challenger for Reagan in '84 than Mondale was.

Dibs, Obama would be held back for the same reason that Barbara Jordan was held back.

[12th Doctor]

Quick List of 10 Women (regardless of political views) who are more qualified to be President then Clinton:

1) Kay Baily Hutchison
2) Diane Fienstien
3) Janet Napolitano
4) Elizabeth Dole
5) Barbara Mikulski
6) Barbara Boxer
7) Heather Wilson
8 ) Olyimpia Snow
9) Susan Collins
10) Patty Murray

And that's just pulled right off the top of my head.

Hillary has no expirience.  She wouldn't be anyone were it not for her husband (other than a Illinois Lawyer).  People really do not like her personally.

She jumped to the front of the line because she is a Clinton.  As people like you keep pointing out Wakie, one of the main trusts of her campaign has been "I'm a woman.  Vote for me."  The more people have looked at her, the more they have asked themselves, "Why should I vote for someone just because they have a Double XX".  And in Hillary's case, reasons are found severely wanting.  If anything, things ran in the opposite of what you claim.  More people asked "Why should I vote for her just because she is a woman" than asked "Why should I vote for a woman."

[12th Doctor]

There has never been a female politician in American history who has ever delivered a speech which was considered a "great" speech.  

Barbara Jordan.  

I think her famous 1974 speech is considered one of the all time greats.  And one I wish we could revisit in these times...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordanjudiciarystatement.htm


And then, her 1976 DNC speech...well...here it is...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordan1976dnc.html

I would add that Margaret Chase Smith's condemnation of Tailgunner Joe was brilliant.  I very much liked Shirley Chisolm's speeches, particularly in support of the ERA. And though she never ran for office, few people would dispute the rhetorical abilities of Fannie Lou Hamer.

A lot of people liked Liddy Dole's speech at the 1996 Convention more than her husbands.  It doesn't get remembered as much as a Presidnetial Speech because the Dole's lost, but still.

[Gabu]

Gabu, if you've never heard those attacks then I wonder where you have been.  So lets talk about what YOUR attacks have been then.  Please list.

I don't like Hillary because she smacks of "typical sleazy politician" where everything she says sounds utterly fake and focus group-tested.  That and she needs to calm the hell down and stop sounding pissed off every single time she says something.

Again I ask: if America does not want to have any politically powerful women, why does America have seven female governors and sixteen female senators?  Did the country just sort of not notice that they were women until it was too late?

[12th Doctor]

People don't like Hillary for the same reason they don't like Romney...

She is a Johnny Come Lately asshole who thinks she can school everyone else on how to be a real (insert party and ideology).

And like Romney, she is no one's second choice.

Oh, guess what, Romney's a man.

[Alcon]

People don't like Hillary for the same reason they don't like Romney...

She is a Johnny Come Lately asshole who thinks she can school everyone else on how to be a real (insert party and ideology).

And like Romney, she is no one's second choice.

Oh, guess what, Romney's a man.

But he's a Mormon!

[JSojourner]

Wakie says:  JSojourner, you are correct about the Barbara Jordan speeches.  Fantastic speeches delivered by a brilliant woman.  It is a shame that her gender held her back from being Carter's VP.  She would have been a far better challenger for Reagan in '84 than Mondale was.

I agree, though I liked Mondale a lot and still do.

Jordan was not only African-American, but a lesbian.  While I don't think that was known at the time, it probably would have been.  And that would have put an end to that, unfortunately.  She ranks right up there with Bobby Kennedy and Paul Wellstone on my list of "Presidents that might have been"....

To Soulty -- I had forgotten about Dole in 1996, but you're right.  A very different style, but praised at the time for its fluidity and warmth.  She was very good.

[John Dibble]

Gabu, if you've never heard those attacks then I wonder where you have been.  So lets talk about what YOUR attacks have been then.  Please list.

JSojourner, you are correct about the Barbara Jordan speeches.  Fantastic speeches delivered by a brilliant woman.  It is a shame that her gender held her back from being Carter's VP.  She would have been a far better challenger for Reagan in '84 than Mondale was.

Dibs, Obama would be held back for the same reason that Barbara Jordan was held back.

First off, Carter was back a couple decades ago - how many state Governors and Senators were women when he was elected? I'd guess far fewer. Second, supposing that Obama made it to Senator as a woman (not a bad assumption given we've got a few today), I don't see a reason why a female Obama couldn't run today all else being equal. People would still hate Clinton, and if Obama were a woman it might even have given him a greater edge.

[Wakie]

Soulty, do you think that Hillary had no involvement in the Clinton White House of the 90's?  Wasn't that one of the big complaints Republicans had then and have now about her?  I agree that there are women more experienced than her to be President and that she jumped to the front based on her relationship with Bill Clinton.  I don't think people should use gender when determining who to vote for.  But when you hear/read comments like "she's a man" or "what a skank" you know where they come from and that is gender bias.



Gabu, did you like Al Gore?  Didn't you feel like everything HE said was fake?  Of course I always felt that Bush's statements were even MORE fake ... but that's just me.

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

[elcorazon]

That said, she's not a BAD choice.

You may as well support Fred Thompson or John McCain if you really believe that.

that's ridiculous.

if you believe that, you obviously don't follow politics.

Hillary's negatives go beyond her being a woman, but her being a woman is a major cause of some of those negatives, and they are a hindrance to her overcoming those negatives.

W had a lot of the same negatives and the guy actually won (he's not really accomplished anything on his own - was handed a job as a do-nothing governor and annointed republican nomination with little fight) - the guy even got reelected despite his obvious incompetence... yet Hillary's too calculated, too political, too arrogant, too bitchy, too ugly, etc.  

And citing the 7 governors is a red herring.  That's 14%, first of all, a pretty sorry total, and again, Governors are NOT PResidents.  Getting a nomination is a different animal and the charisma required is nowhere near the same.  

You all need to realize the problem is NOT that people WON'T vote for a woman, it's that the standards they use to judge the candidates is not the same for women.  It's just a gut feeling.  People LIKE Obama.  They don't LIKE Hillary.  The likability for female politicians is definitely less than for males.  It just is.  We feel safer with men in leadership positions.  

[Gabu]

Gabu, did you like Al Gore?  Didn't you feel like everything HE said was fake?  Of course I always felt that Bush's statements were even MORE fake ... but that's just me.

I think an awful lot of politicians are fake.  Hillary is one of them.

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

Every single time someone brings up a valid point to counter something you've claimed, you move the goalposts further away.  I think it's fairly obvious that you just want to believe that people are voting against Hillary because she's a woman.

[John Dibble]

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

Might this not have something to do with women running for office at a lower rate than men?

[Wakie]

Gabu, did you like Al Gore?  Didn't you feel like everything HE said was fake?  Of course I always felt that Bush's statements were even MORE fake ... but that's just me.

I think an awful lot of politicians are fake.  Hillary is one of them.

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

Every single time someone brings up a valid point to counter something you've claimed, you move the goalposts further away.  I think it's fairly obvious that you just want to believe that people are voting against Hillary because she's a woman.

Gabu, I refer you to elcorazon's post.  14% and 16% are pretty sorry percentages.  I'm sorry that in your mind all you need to do is say that there has been 1 of something to make it a "valid point".

I know your whole argument against Hillary is that she is "fake" and "not liberal enough" and that is perfectly reasonable.  But you don't complain about Edwards being fake.  And I hate to tell you this, but extremely liberal positions are not going to make it through Congress.

[Wakie]

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

Might this not have something to do with women running for office at a lower rate than men?

Might that have something to do with lack of support for women running for office?

[12th Doctor]

Soulty, do you think that Hillary had no involvement in the Clinton White House of the 90's?  Wasn't that one of the big complaints Republicans had then and have now about her?  I agree that there are women more experienced than her to be President and that she jumped to the front based on her relationship with Bill Clinton.  I don't think people should use gender when determining who to vote for.  But when you hear/read comments like "she's a man" or "what a skank" you know where they come from and that is gender bias.

"John Edwards wants to be the first gay President." "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the Devil are brothers."  "McCain is too old to be President." "Obama is a Muslim."  "Huckabee is a hick."  "Giuliani is LIBRUL."

You are debating semantics.  The attacks might be different, but they all mean the same things and they happen regardless of who, what, when.

As for her role in the White House, I think the Clintons need to get their story clear on that one first.  She has gone from being "co-president" to "limited involvement" to everywhere in between.

[afleitch]

Margaret Thatcher.

Party leader of the patrician Conservative Party in 1975 and PM in 1979. For all her faults the fact she was a woman was broadly irrelevant even to the die hard right. She never attained high levels of personal popularity yet she was extraordinarily succesful. Why? Because of her own strengths versus her internal party and political opponents. Because the electorate deemed that there was 'no one better' even if she never scaled the political heights. Hillarys problem is not that she's a woman, it's that the American voter may believe there is someone better. If it's not Obama it may have been her eventual opponent in November.

[Wakie]

Margaret Thatcher.

Party leader of the patrician Conservative Party in 1975 and PM in 1979. For all her faults the fact she was a woman was broadly irrelevant even to the die hard right. She never attained high levels of personal popularity yet she was extraordinarily succesful. Why? Because of her own strengths versus her internal party and political opponents. Because the electorate deemed that there was 'no one better' even if she never scaled the political heights. Hillarys problem is not that she's a woman, it's that the American voter may believe there is someone better. If it's not Obama it may have been her eventual opponent in November.

Prime Ministers, unlike Presidents, are not directly elected.  You know that.