Until this AM ....

[Wakie]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible  
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

[Wakie]

*Sarah Palin - Umm ... she's attractive but nationally she inspires the question "who?"  Prior to somebody posting about her yesterday I had never heard of her.  That doesn't scream charisma.

That means you're looking for someone nationally prominent, not someone charismatic. A state senator can be charismatic. In that case, you might consider Nancy Pelosi, though her problem is really that she represents San Francisco in Congress than anything else.

Nancy Pelosi may be party boss, but just go back through the posts about her on here.  You will see exactly how charismatic the Atlas Forum believes her to be.

Popular, not charismatic. And she's more popular than Harry Reid both here and in general, so good luck attributing it to gender.

More popular than Harry Reid .... now there's a yardstick ....
Now if only she can reach Kucinich popularity .....

[Verily]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible 
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

Sounds as if you're very good as dismissing women yourself. The rest of us perhaps not so much.

*Sarah Palin - Umm ... she's attractive but nationally she inspires the question "who?"  Prior to somebody posting about her yesterday I had never heard of her.  That doesn't scream charisma.

That means you're looking for someone nationally prominent, not someone charismatic. A state senator can be charismatic. In that case, you might consider Nancy Pelosi, though her problem is really that she represents San Francisco in Congress than anything else.

Nancy Pelosi may be party boss, but just go back through the posts about her on here.  You will see exactly how charismatic the Atlas Forum believes her to be.

Popular, not charismatic. And she's more popular than Harry Reid both here and in general, so good luck attributing it to gender.

More popular than Harry Reid .... now there's a yardstick ....
Now if only she can reach Kucinich popularity .....

She's the leader of an unpopular legislature. Of course she's unpopular. *Yawn*

[StateBoiler]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible  
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

Stop fishing for reasons to explain off Clinton's expected loss as sexism.

If Obama gets stunned tonight are you going to come back here and say it's cause New Hampshire's racist?

And you're quick to dismiss Napolitano. Napolitano is the governor that has gone the furthest on getting a pragmatic solution to the border crisis.

I thought of another: Kay Bailey Hutchison. Elected from the second-largest state statewide multiple times.

[AndrewTX]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible  
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

Alright fine, a woman will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be President, and will never be an imporant figure in American politics ever again because Hillary will not win the nomination.

 No go cry in the corner, emo.

[Wakie]

You guys keep throwing up 3 types of names.

1. An obscure albeit pretty female politician who has, at most, a state election under her belt.
2. A woman in a powerful position but not one who would traditionally be considered "charismatic" (ala Pelosi or Rice).
3. A governor or senator who has been around for a while and is a female equivalent of a Joe Biden or Bill Richardson.

Where is the female Barack Obama?  Where is the female John Edwards?  Heck, where is the female Ron Paul?

[AndrewTX]

You guys keep throwing up 3 types of names.

1. An obscure albeit pretty female politician who has, at most, a state election under her belt.
2. A woman in a powerful position but not one who would traditionally be considered "charismatic" (ala Pelosi or Rice).
3. A governor or senator who has been around for a while and is a female equivalent of a Joe Biden or Bill Richardson.

Where is the female Barack Obama?  Where is the female John Edwards?  Heck, where is the female Ron Paul?

Hell, why don't you tell us! We've given you examples and you keep shooting them down.

[Angel of Death]

I think a variant of Sturgeon's Law is applicable here. It's true most women politicians are not popular, but that goes for the entire class of politicians.

[opebo]

I agree completely with Wakie's astute thesis about america's profound sexism.

[AndrewTX]

I agree completely with Wakie's astute thesis about america's profound sexism.

 I wouldn't say America's sexism, as I would the democrats sexism.

[Wakie]

I'm not making this argument in a "defend Hillary" motive.  I actually want you guys to offer up a good argument.  I want you guys to convince me that I don't live in a country that automatically dismisses women because they are "too manly" or "too soft".

Is Hillary a cold fish?  Sure.  So was Al Gore and you guys were practically crying out for him to run.  What is the difference between the 2?  Gender.  Would an Al Gore defeat draw the giddiness which an apparent Hillary defeat has drawn?  The reason is because we look at men and women differently.  We look at the political machinations of the Clinton machine and we adore Bill for it and despise Hillary for it.

It isn't limited to the world of politics.  I see it in the business world too.  And women are just as guilty of it as men are.  We may tell ourselves that a woman can do everything a man can do, but in reality few of us honestly believe that.

[elcorazon]

If a man cries he's showing emotions and compassion.  If a woman cries she is being weak.

If a man tells an off-color joke he's being one of the guys.  If a woman tells an off-color joke she's a pig.

There has never been a female politician in American history who has ever delivered a speech which was considered a "great" speech.  Sure, we all tell ourselves that a woman can be President, but we're lying.

this is extremely true.  And Presidential Politics exponentially increases the issue.  People are looking for "leaders" when they vote for Prez.  Women are seen as "workers".  Hillary even sells herself that way.  It's not what people vote for though.  Sure, they'll elect a hard working woman with good ideas to congress, or even governor, but when it comes to Prez, they go with their gut - the need to be "presidential", "strong", but not come off as rude, arrogant, bitchy.  Men can be strong without being rude, bitchy, etc.  Women can't do it as easily.

I wouldn't go so far as to say a woman WON'T get elected in the next generation, but I agree that a woman will be in a difficult position to do so... and I think it will be MUCH easier for us to elect a Jew or a Black or a Hispanic than a woman.

[opebo]

And women are just as guilty of it as men are.

Actually much worse, typically. 

We may tell ourselves that a woman can do everything a man can do, but in reality few of us honestly believe that.

I don't think its that people think a woman can't do what a man can do, I think its just that people hate women.

[Inverted Things]

I'm not making this argument in a "defend Hillary" motive.  I actually want you guys to offer up a good argument.  I want you guys to convince me that I don't live in a country that automatically dismisses women because they are "too manly" or "too soft".

Is Hillary a cold fish?  Sure.  So was Al Gore and you guys were practically crying out for him to run.  What is the difference between the 2?  Gender.  Would an Al Gore defeat draw the giddiness which an apparent Hillary defeat has drawn?  The reason is because we look at men and women differently.  We look at the political machinations of the Clinton machine and we adore Bill for it and despise Hillary for it.

It isn't limited to the world of politics.  I see it in the business world too.  And women are just as guilty of it as men are.  We may tell ourselves that a woman can do everything a man can do, but in reality few of us honestly believe that.

You argue that women cannot be as charismatic as men at the national level, and that this is a function of our society.

I would like you to consider this: There are (or rather, were) 14 (?) candidates running for president. One was a woman. How many of these candidates are considered charismatic at the national level? I count 3: Obama, Edwards, Romney (I'm not sure Edwards should really be here). Remember, assuming randomness of ability, Hillary had a 1/14 chance of being the best and a 3/14 chance of being top 3. Not good odds, and therefore the phenomenon can be explained at this level without reference to sexism.

Broadening our view, you note that there hasn't yet been a nationally noted charismatic female candidate. But this begs the question: How many nationally noted female candidates have there been (say since 2000)? Three: Clinton, Dole, Mosley-Brown. Wow, I sure had to dig deep to even find a third woman here. How many total man since 2000? At least 30. Playing the probability game again, it's not surprising that women aren't toward the top; there aren't many of them.

So, now that we have explanations of the generalities, let's look at Clinton in Iowa. What happened in Iowa? Record turnout, particularly among college students. Record turnout doesn't benefit a candidate like Hillary, since the sorts of people excited about Hillary are primary/caucus voters anyway. College students are definitely anti-Hillary, being generally more anti-establishment. Also Hillary hasn't exactly endeared herself to that demographic.

[StateBoiler]

I'm not making this argument in a "defend Hillary" motive.  I actually want you guys to offer up a good argument.  I want you guys to convince me that I don't live in a country that automatically dismisses women because they are "too manly" or "too soft".

Palin, Snowe, Napolitano, Hutchison, Pelosi, Klobuchar, Rice, Dole, Granholm, etc.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You lost all credibility as a political observer with that quote.

[The Mikado]

I like Barbara Boxer.

[Gabu]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible 
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

Who exactly is it who refuses to believe a charismatic woman could exist?

[Wakie]

StateBoiler, do I really need to go back to the "RUN GORE RUN" threads?  Are you saying that you don't remember people saying "God I wish Al Gore would run"?

Also, the women you listed ... here are some male equivalents ... none of whom strike me as being charismatic.

Sarah Palin - Chet Culver
Olympia Snowe - Lamar Alexander (closest Republican woman to Presidential charisma)
Janet Napolitano - Bill Richardson
Kay Bailey Hutchinson - Bob Bennett
Nancy Pelosi - Harry Reid
Liddy Dole - John Sununu
Jennifer Granholm - Ed Rendell (closest Democratic woman to Presidential charisma)

[Wakie]

Sarah Palin - An ex beauty queen whose national prominence is negligible 
Olympia Snowe - Dismissed within her own party
Janet Napolitano - Has all the charisma of Bill Richardson
Amy Klobuchar - So charismatic that only political wonks have heard of her
Condi Rice - Are you kidding me?  The Ice Queen

Who exactly is it who refuses to believe a charismatic woman could exist?

Ok, lets be honest about this then.  You think that any of the women listed above could be elected President?

[AndrewTX]

I see two who could, and two more who have a good possibility in the future.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I could see Kathleen Sebelius becoming VP.

[Wakie]

I see two who could, and two more who have a good possibility in the future.

I'm going to guess that you think that Palin and Klobuchar are the "possibility in the future".  But you really think that Snowe, Napolitano, or Rice could make a run that would any more successful that Bill Richardson's campaign this year?


jfern, becoming VP is different than becoming President.  It is a "ride along" position.  I don't think a lot of people preferred Dan Quayle to Lloyd Bentsen in 1988.

[AndrewTX]

I see two who could, and two more who have a good possibility in the future.

I'm going to guess that you think that Palin and Klobuchar are the "possibility in the future".  But you really think that Snowe, Napolitano, or Rice could make a run that would any more successful that Bill Richardson's campaign this year?

  Yup, that is correct.  They are all amazing women, and are terrific campaigners. They have tremendous records to run on, and would have an excellent run for the White House if they wanted to go for it.

Edit: Wait, I forgot who I was talking to.  I mean to say no, they have no future being President, because they are women. Women can't run because we don't want them to do things, like being President, and stuff. Look at Hillary. She is super awsome, but she can't win. Thus, nobody will ever win.

   And you know what that makes me? That makes me a saaaaaaaaaaaaaaad panda

[Verily]

Where is the female Barack Obama?  Where is the female John Edwards?  Heck, where is the female Ron Paul?

Given that there had been no figure like Barack Obama or Ron Paul in politics for decades (Ron Paul possibly not ever), it is asking a bit much of women to come up with counterparts. As for Edwards, he's just a pretty face with a southern accent, which takes you far in politics no matter what gender you are.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Does it actually matter whether America ever elects a female President or not? What matters is that it is possible (realistically possible that is).