Until this AM ....

[Platypus]

Ruth Ann Minner is a genuinely charismatic and strong woman. Ugly and old sure, but definately a strong, charismatic leader.

[jokerman]

I almost agree with you, Wakie.  Nothing else seems to explain the irrational hatred of Clinton.

[Ebowed]

Nothing else seems to explain the irrational hatred of Clinton.

Except her policies.

I love the mediocre-moderate left coming out of the woodwork alleging that the only possible explanation for Hillary's unpopularity among the left is sexism.  It's like accusing Republicans of disliking Bill Clinton because he was a Christian.

Oooh wait.  Let's ignore logic.

[Gabu]

I almost agree with you, Wakie.  Nothing else seems to explain the irrational hatred of Clinton.

Yes, we hate Clinton because she's a woman.  You found us out.

[Wakie]

I see two who could, and two more who have a good possibility in the future.

I'm going to guess that you think that Palin and Klobuchar are the "possibility in the future".  But you really think that Snowe, Napolitano, or Rice could make a run that would any more successful that Bill Richardson's campaign this year?

  Yup, that is correct.  They are all amazing women, and are terrific campaigners. They have tremendous records to run on, and would have an excellent run for the White House if they wanted to go for it.

Edit: Wait, I forgot who I was talking to.  I mean to say no, they have no future being President, because they are women. Women can't run because we don't want them to do things, like being President, and stuff. Look at Hillary. She is super awsome, but she can't win. Thus, nobody will ever win.

   And you know what that makes me? That makes me a saaaaaaaaaaaaaaad panda

Andrew you may dislike me for saying it but that doesn't make it any less true.  Bill Richardson is an amazing guy who (prior to this campaign) was thought of as a great campaigner.  But when it came to the national spectrum he was too bland and analytical for Joe Average American.

Hey, I hope you're right that in America a woman has a chance at the White House.  Personally I don't.  In 220 years how many women have managed to drum up enough support to actually launch a campaign for the Presidency?  5.

Of the truly great political speeches in our nation's history how many have been delivered by women?  0.

When women have reached positions of authority in our nation how are they received?  "She's a b****"   "She's manly"    "I hate her for no reason"

[Ebowed]

Wakie is providing a real eye opener into the psyche of a Clinton defender here.

No one hates Hillary Clinton "for no reason," especially not on the left.  But I guess if you're going to support Hillary Clinton, you could be told anything enough times and it becomes truth.  Like how she was going to be the inevitable nominee.

[Gabu]

"I hate her for no reason"

LOL, you can't tell me you honestly believe that.  Kathleen Sebelius has approvals off the charts, and in Kansas of all places.  Olympia Snowe is consistently approved of by over 70% of her constituents.  Nobody hates Hillary Clinton because she's a woman; they hate her because she's Hillary Clinton.

[Ebowed]

Actually, Kathleen Sebelius is one of my favorite politicians.  Check out her social views, and then remember that she's governor of Kansas.

Totally bitchin'.

[Everett]

I don't think anyone in this thread has implied that women should not hold positions of authority. Or maybe we really do judge politicians based entirely on their gender. Who the hell cares about what they actually believe in?

Okay, okay. Obviously Hillary Clinton should get right back into the kitchen, take her shoes off, and raise another dozen children. Are you happy now? We all hate her because she's a woman and women should not be running for president. Furthermore, Clinton is the only woman who exists in politics, so there, we're trying to ban women from ever reaching the presidency.

God, I hate women.

[Wakie]

Where is the female Barack Obama?  Where is the female John Edwards?  Heck, where is the female Ron Paul?

Given that there had been no figure like Barack Obama or Ron Paul in politics for decades (Ron Paul possibly not ever), it is asking a bit much of women to come up with counterparts. As for Edwards, he's just a pretty face with a southern accent, which takes you far in politics no matter what gender you are.

Are you kidding me?  Obama has good charisma but he's nowhere near Bill Clinton in '92.

And Ron Paul is a Republican version of Howard Dean.  He disagrees just enough with the mainstream of his party to energize all the people who feel like the party left them.  Then he uses the internet to raise funds as an underdog and he empowers his supporters to run with whatever ideas they come up with.

I agree with your assessment of Edwards.  A man who is a "face" with a southern accent gets far.  A women with the same would be pigeonholed.

[elcorazon]

wakie's dead on here.  It's all subliminal.  I'm NOT a Clinton supporter at all.  partly because she can't win, but partly because she's not my personal favorite choice. That said, she's not a BAD choice.  She's certainly a better choice than Kerry who provoked little of the hatred that Hillary does.  Regardless, the whole thing is about feel, not about people opting not to vote for women.

[Gabu]

Are you kidding me?  Obama has good charisma but he's nowhere near Bill Clinton in '92.

And Ron Paul is a Republican version of Howard Dean.  He disagrees just enough with the mainstream of his party to energize all the people who feel like the party left them.  Then he uses the internet to raise funds as an underdog and he empowers his supporters to run with whatever ideas they come up with.

I agree with your assessment of Edwards.  A man who is a "face" with a southern accent gets far.  A women with the same would be pigeonholed.

If everyone hates women and don't want them to be in prominent positions, why do we currently have seven female governors and sixteen female senators?  Wouldn't the voters want to stop them way before they got to that point?  Why wait until they could potentially run for president before hating them for their gender?

[Gabu]

I don't think anyone in this thread has implied that women should not hold positions of authority. Or maybe we really do judge politicians based entirely on their gender. Who the hell cares about what they actually believe in?

Okay, okay. Obviously Hillary Clinton should get right back into the kitchen, take her shoes off, and raise another dozen children. Are you happy now? We all hate her because she's a woman and women should not be running for president. Furthermore, Clinton is the only woman who exists in politics, so there, we're trying to ban women from ever reaching the presidency.

God, I hate women.

get back in the kitchen

[Ebowed]

That said, she's not a BAD choice.

You may as well support Fred Thompson or John McCain if you really believe that.

[12th Doctor]

Right up until this AM I was confident that Hillary was on her way to becoming President.  I really wasn't even shaken by the Iowa results.  But this AM I came to the conclusion that she will not be elected President.

I came to this conclusion listening to morning sports talk radio.  If you really want to get the pulse of what the average person is thinking, listen to sports talk.  People care more about sports than any other topic.  And this morning I heard the giddiness and gloating in the voices as they discussed the prospect of a Hillary defeat.  I was stunned to hear it equally from women as well as men.  And then I realized that it isn't about it being Hillary, it is simply that in my lifetime a woman will never be elected President.

The reason isn't that people overtly think "oh a woman can't do this".  It is rather that we all look at the things that men and women do and we judge them differently based on their gender.

Boo-fing-hoo-hoo.

"Hillary's not gonna win, so we are never gonna have a female president."

Did you ever consider the obvious fact that Hillary is just not the right woman to do it?  The irony is that Hillay's whole campaign was based on her wanting people to believe that she was the expirience candidate.  Ummmm... how does she have more expirience than Edwards and Obama?  She started dancing in the end zone before she even crossed the goalline and it was arrogant to the core.

If anything, this election should be a comfort to people who want a female president.  Hillary's womanhood is far from being the reason she lost.  Plenty of people were willing to see past that.

Bring us a real one, then people will vote for her.

[Wakie]

Guys, I'm talking about the attitudes in our country which looks at men and women and judges the exact same actions differently.

You guys keep going back to Hillary though and saying "we hate her because who she is".  That is certainly a detailed and completely enlightening view.  I hate John Doe because he is John Doe.  He's so ... Doe-ish.  I man ... come on, he acts like a politician.

My point is that many of the attacks on Hillary would have been considered ridiculous if they were attacks launched on any of the the other candidates.  And I see this same behavior in the business world.

Bury your heads in the sand about it if you want, but that is what it is.  As has been pointed out a woman can reach the position of Governor and Senator because we don't really look at those positions as heavily influencing us ... we see them as workers, not leaders.

[Ebowed]

Ummmm... how does she have more expirience than Edwards and Obama?

Very good point.  She is relying on the popularity of her last name to be in the Senate, and to run for President.

Americans are beginning to realize that a never-ending dynasty of political families ruling the country for decades at a time is not healthy for anyone.  It has nothing to do with sexism.

[Gabu]

My point is that many of the attacks on Hillary would have been considered ridiculous if they were attacks launched on any of the the other candidates.

Um, what attacks are those?  If she were a man, I would have said identical things about her.

[AndrewTX]

My point is that many of the attacks on Hillary would have been considered ridiculous if they were attacks launched on any of the the other candidates.

Um, what attacks are those?  If she were a man, I would have said identical things about her.

Wait..she isn't a man?

[12th Doctor]

Hillary's biggest problem though is this, she actually falls into one really bad female stereotype and that is that she appears very insecure with her public imagine.  Constantly changing hairstyles, makeup, and ever how she presents herself.  Once "change" became the issue it took all of five seconds for her to switch her campaign themes to mimic Obama and Edwards, and then when she realized it was a losing battle, she switched back.

[Gabu]

Wait..she isn't a man?

Reply hazy, ask again later.

[Wakie]

"Bring us a real one."

There it is.  A real one.  We want a real woman.

We want a woman we won't call the Ice Queen.  Janet Reno and Golda Meir you're out.
We want a woman we won't call Weak.  Nancy Pelosi and Indira Gandhi you're out.

My guess is that the average age in here is about 25.  The average life expectancy is 75.  This means that most of you will see another 7-10 Presidents in your life.

Unless you are willing to look at the actions of men and women and weigh them equally then this country will remain a nation ruled of the men, by the men, and for the men.

[Gabu]

Unless you are willing to look at the actions of men and women and weigh them equally then this country will remain a nation ruled of the men, by the men, and for the men.

What attacks on Hillary would not have occurred had she been a man?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Watching the general public wake up and realize Hillary Clinton will never be President makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I love how Mitty's endorsement is almost always the kiss of death.