France General Discussion

[Antonio the Sixth]

Thank you, Benoît.
That's what I wanted to say.

Antonio, listen to Zemmour on Histoire, when he takes part in Michel Field's historical debates. You'll see that he's not insane.

Intelligence and sanity are two very different things.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

You persevere!

Make up your mind Antonio, and yes, listen to one of his debates, I very disagree with the partiality of his conclusions in not all but several realms, but before conclusions he produces analysis of quality, not to say of high-quality which even appears as kind of weird that he can speak in some mainstream medias. So, it's hard to qualify him an insane.

Make up your mind, having strong different conclusions doesn't qualify the other one of insane, you bolchevik! One more time, by using unfair tricks like that, you don't serve your ideas.

You often refer to Mariane, so watch i-télé on Saturday, each week he has a 30 mins debate with Nicolas Domenach (that one is still in Mariane, no?), about the different topics of the week, the debate is broadcasted several times in the day, you'll surely find hours on the net, and you'll see that it is possible to debate with him, when you debate correctly.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I will try to listen or read him as much as possible. I feer I can't see I-télé (actually maybe I still don't even have any french TV access), but fair enough, I've not bought a Figaro since some time : he has a column there, isn't it ?
Anyways, don't be so sure that I will change my mind. I already said that I didn't discussed the fact he was intelligent, so please don't start saying I'm a bolshevik.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I will try to listen or read him as much as possible. I feer I can't see I-télé (actually maybe I still don't even have any french TV access), but fair enough, I've not bought a Figaro since some time : he has a column there, isn't it ?
Anyways, don't be so sure that I will change my mind. I already said that I didn't discussed the fact he was intelligent, so please don't start saying I'm a bolshevik.

Well, you just seemed keeping saying that no matter he was intelligent, he was insane. The bolchevik comment was because it seems to me it was common in USSR or regimes like that to say that someone you disagree with is insane, so don't use this bad tricks as well, especially if you haven't seen much of him. Good you'll try to before speaking now.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I will try to listen or read him as much as possible. I feer I can't see I-télé (actually maybe I still don't even have any french TV access), but fair enough, I've not bought a Figaro since some time : he has a column there, isn't it ?
Anyways, don't be so sure that I will change my mind. I already said that I didn't discussed the fact he was intelligent, so please don't start saying I'm a bolshevik.

Well, you just seemed keeping saying that no matter he was intelligent, he was insane. The bolchevik comment was because it seems to me it was common in USSR or regimes like that to say that someone you disagree with is insane, so don't use this bad tricks as well, especially if you haven't seen much of him. Good you'll try to before speaking now.

I know about him denouncing "denial of races", and warning against the "feminization of the society" and abortion that is undermining pop growth. This and some more stuff led me to think what I think, and I won't change my mind without a reason. Once again, the way he's able to argument (that, fair enough, makes him intelligent) doesn't make him sane. I'll read, and maybe change my mind if you're right.
But I maintain everything I said.

[Hash]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

[Hash]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

I watch it on the interwebs.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

I watch it on the interwebs.

Oh, right. Could you post a link ? I'll probably have a look later.

[Hash]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

I watch it on the interwebs.

Oh, right. Could you post a link ? I'll probably have a look later.

http://fr.wwitv.com/

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

...or: http://www.itele.fr/ !

Page where they speak of the show I spoke about, in les émissions du week end, 'Ca se dispute':

http://www.itele.fr/emissions.php

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

http://www.france24.com/fr/20100322-stephane-guillon-chronique-eric-besson-direction-radio-france-excuses-france-inter-hees

Besson's full answer:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xco2d9_eric-besson-france-inter_news

Not a wonderful caricature, but:

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.k, why not, everyone can choose its editorial line, but what are the 'values of public services'?

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Hmm, what the f**k, asking for less freedom of speech?

For English speakers: in short it's about an offensive chronicle against Eric Besson (Minister of Immigration, National Identity, etc), painting him as an FN agent, offensive but could be worst, and Besson kinda complaining of the fact that such stuffs are said on the public radio.

Ironically, the public radio, France Inter, is currently one of the most contesting against the political power. But lately the new boss, nominated by Sarkozy, would be more inclined to be less offensive against it, specifically concerning caricatures. He apologized in the name of the radio for this event. Well, yes, it's up to anyone to have it's editorial line, but that makes a kind of weird climate...

[big bad fab]

Translate also the part where Guillon speaks about "yeux de fouine" et "menton fuyant".

Honestly, from anyone else (let's say Frêche or Hortefeux or some anonymous cartoonist ), there would have been big cries about OMG ANTI-SEMITISM OMG.

Guillon is just another self-centered seller of bad jokes.
And some dares to compare him with Desproges... sigh... poor Pierre !

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Translate also the part where Guillon speaks about "yeux de fouine" et "menton fuyant".

Honestly, from anyone else (let's say Frêche or Hortefeux or some anonymous cartoonist ), there would have been big cries about OMG ANTI-SEMITISM OMG.

Guillon is just another self-centered seller of bad jokes.
And some dares to compare him with Desproges... sigh... poor Pierre !

Oh, wasn't trying to make an apology of him, I said that I didn't find the caricature wonderful, but as Demorand said using the physic is part of caricature, and the point here for me wasn't to judge the work of Guillon, neither the editorial line of Hees, as I said it's up to each one, it was more the reaction of Besson:

First, he criticizes Guillon for having political thesis, yah, and what's the problem??

Second, he invites the public radio to 'wonder about its responsibility', ahem, govt has to say something about the editorial line??

Third, he speaks about an 'not equal fight' between this humorist and politicians, because he makes his chronicles alone, without facing the politicians he criticizes, and so?? where is the problem?? and where is the inequality between an humorist and someone who participates to the political power?? there isn't, as long as freedom of speech is respected, one has the concrete power, the other one the power of words.

That's only on these 3 points that my criticizes were, once again, I didn't find the chronicle great, and if I can sometimes find Guillon good I don't make him a superman, and generally speaking I'm not a fan of stuffs about physic and so forth, but that's part of caricature.

[Hash]

On something more interesting than the day's little bitchfest and caling-Besson-a-Nazi (I plead guilty, but I do it for fun)...

UMP deputy and Mayor of Vannes (but open Sarkozy-hater since 2007) François Goulard has announced that Villepin will be creating his own party on Thursday to provide "an alternative" to the Hungarian. Is Sarkozy's likely nomination of Tron and Baroin to the cabinet his response to this and his last-ditch attempt at killing the movement in its egg?

Potential members:

Azouz Begag (MoDem) ??
Auguste Cazalet, UMP Senator (Chiraquien)
Henri Cuq, UMP deputy
Jean-Louis Debré, UMP President of the Constitutional Council (Chirac's friend)
Daniel Garrigue, NI (ex-UMP) deputy (anti-Sarkozy and Gaullist to boot)
Guy Geoffroy, UMP deputy
Brigitte Girardin, former cabinet minister
François Goulard, UMP deputy
Jean-Pierre Grand, UMP deputy
Pierre Jarlier, UMP Senator
Jacques Le Guen, UMP deputy (recently in a mini-feud with the party over his flopped candidacy in Bretagne)
Jean Leonetti, UMP deputy
Hervé Mariton, UMP deputy (but split with Villepin over NATO, Iraq in 2003. Supported McCain in 2006)
Georges Tron, UMP deputy (but new cabinet minister)
Jean Ueberschlag, Chiraquien UMP deputy
Benoît Yvert, member of Villepin's club
Marie-Jo Zimmermann, UMP deputy

Plus a number of local officials and Villepin's club members... It's unlikely this party will allow double-membership with the UMP, so you could see some big departures from the UMP. The 2011 cantonal and senatorial elections will be bloody.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yay, Besson speaking about values...

[big bad fab]

On something more interesting than the day's little bitchfest and caling-Besson-a-Nazi (I plead guilty, but I do it for fun)...

UMP deputy and Mayor of Vannes (but open Sarkozy-hater since 2007) François Goulard has announced that Villepin will be creating his own party on Thursday to provide "an alternative" to the Hungarian. Is Sarkozy's likely nomination of Tron and Baroin to the cabinet his response to this and his last-ditch attempt at killing the movement in its egg?

Potential members:

Azouz Begag (MoDem) ??
Auguste Cazalet, UMP Senator (Chiraquien) not so sure, too old
Henri Cuq, UMP deputy not so sure, it's the old school, not really fond of mad Villepin
Jean-Louis Debré, UMP President of the Constitutional Council (Chirac's friend) he can't be openly a member
Daniel Garrigue, NI (ex-UMP) deputy (anti-Sarkozy and Gaullist to boot)
Guy Geoffroy, UMP deputy
Brigitte Girardin, former cabinet minister
François Goulard, UMP deputy
Jean-Pierre Grand, UMP deputy
Pierre Jarlier, UMP Senator
Jacques Le Guen, UMP deputy (recently in a mini-feud with the party over his flopped candidacy in Bretagne)
Jean Leonetti, UMP deputy no ! he's a moderate guy, with good relations with everyone, sort of Larcher
Hervé Mariton, UMP deputy (but split with Villepin over NATO, Iraq in 2003. Supported McCain in 2006)
Georges Tron, UMP deputy (but new cabinet minister)
Jean Ueberschlag, Chiraquien UMP deputy
Benoît Yvert, member of Villepin's club
Marie-Jo Zimmermann, UMP deputy

Plus a number of local officials and Villepin's club members... It's unlikely this party will allow double-membership with the UMP, so you could see some big departures from the UMP. The 2011 cantonal and senatorial elections will be bloody.

And don't forget about Marie-Anne Montchamp, deputy from Val-de-Marne.

Maybe also Catherine Vautrin, former harsh enemy of Dutreil in Reims.
François Cornut-Gentille (the other "bébé Chirac" from Aube) will stay closer to Copé. Gaymard, if somebody asks him (no chance !), would probably do the same.
Philippe Dallier (senator from 9-3) is closer to Raffarin and Longuet.

I'm not so sure Villepin will have a big success among UMP apparatchiks: evzerybody has the CPE in mind. In 2006, Villepin almost killed the entire right...

And many chiraquiens will pick Copé over Villepin and they'd be right.

Like Bayrou, Le PenS, Laguiller, he will be a name without many troops behind.
Unfortunately, the French people like those mad men and kick out the real good ones (Barre, Rocard, Juppé, after PMF).

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I'm waiting for the reaction of Juppé about this. After all, both have a bad 'social memory', CPE for Villepin 2006, big 95 movements for Juppé.

That stuff just after a big defeat can be interesting to see.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

Oh, something new?

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

http://www.france24.com/fr/20100323-francois-fillon-reunion-ump-abandon-taxe-carbone-competitivite-deputes-france

lol

Withdrawal of carbon tax, the big part of 'Sarkozist ecologist project'.

Chantal Jouannot, in charge of environment in the govt says she is 'désespérée'...lol. Something is ok in Sarkozy's land nowadays?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

Oh, something new?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=zemmour+trafiquants+arabes+noirs

Yeah, didn't you knew that most of trafficants were blacks and arabs ? Thanks to Zemmour's deep socio-ethnical analysis, this truth is now reinstated.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

Oh, something new?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=zemmour+trafiquants+arabes+noirs

Yeah, didn't you knew that most of trafficants were blacks and arabs ? Thanks to Zemmour's deep socio-ethnical analysis, this truth is now reinstated.

Haha, yes, the stuff was on Canal+ more than one week ago, maybe 2. That's typically what I mean with him, he can analyze stuffs pretty well, and finish on totally biased conclusions, and as everybody doesn't care to debate the conclusion and just jump on his words with 'RACIST RACIST!!!', the debate is counter-productive, you create your devil. Here, yes, probably most of drug traffickers are Arab/Black, and Zemmour stops here, and that's the problem, what he forgets to say is that that would be true (in case it effectively is, but I would think it is) because in France by far most of people who live in bad social conditions are Arab/Black, then he may say a truth, but in a biased manner. The problem not being ethnic but social, and if most of people in bad social conditions are Arab/Black it is, not only but certainly in big part, because of the discriminations they have to submit in this country and that make them remain in the low part of the scale. And that isn't sexy in his mind, since he still dreams on that universalist France that gives a chance to anybody abide to the few rules of its universalism, universalism of which the values want to be more important than those of other cultural communities within the national one. Ya know, like you he fights 'communautarisme'. Then, instead of admitting that France has some problems to very well integrate these populations because of cultural and ethnical reasons, then they have more chances to remain in the low social levels of the society, he stops at 'Drug traffickers in France are Arabs and Blacks', maybe true, but...

Yah, he forgets to say all of this, but, this is not being a 'nutjob', this is being biased, and if someone would have the good idea to expose him arguments in a correct way instead of 'you racist!', maybe a debate with him would go further, since the guy is very able to debate.

We haven't a Rush Limbaugh in France, far off, then don't create one, don't create your devil because it's too hard to be fair with someone you don't like. You being a general one, 'vous', those who can't go over epidermic reactions. Because since the guy says a kind of truth, but in a biased manner, people who hear this, and who live this, would think he is right, and by stupidly slapping him, you slap these people, and when you slap some people afraid, in psychological insecurity, you rarely obtain positive results...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

About Guillon, the response:

http://sites.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/chro/lhumeurde/

Better than the chronicle.

About Zemmour:

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-medias/2010-03-23/exclusif-eric-zemmour-en-passe-d-etre-licencie-du-figaro/1253/0/436616

So, that might be the way you heard about it today, it takes a long time to the Figaro to react, it was on the 6th of March...

Funny that it happens in a conflict of interest with RTL, lol, doesn't help to have appeased debates and to correctly deals with the kind of stuffs Zemmour can say, bah, all of this is so stupid...

[big bad fab]

Je ne réagirai plus sur ces polémiques (le mot semble être le seul que les médias sont désormais capables de prononcer): je n'aurais pas dû le faire, d'ailleurs, car c'est totalement stérile. Chacun reste sur son "point de vue" et, de toute façon, nous réagissons toujours à partir d'éléments tronqués (merci Benoît de rétablir la nuance nécessaire en l'occurrence).

La France est une dictature fasciste où tous les grands esprits libéraux ne peuvent plus s'exprimer, c'est bien connu....
Je n'en peux franchement plus de cet état d'esprit libertaro-pseudo-progressiste du "toujours plus" (ou plutôt du toujours moins, dans le sens de la médiocrité, du nivellement culturel, de l'abaissement de la responsabilité individuelle, de la destruction de la cellule familiale) dans tous les domaines et dont Canal + est le fleuron.


Pour faire court:

L'homme se croit tout-puissant (gauche ou droite, libéral ou conservateur), il se veut tout puissant.
Ce qui fait que certains exploitent les autres, ne pensent qu'à gagner de l'argent et/ou à accumuler la puissance.
Ce qui fait aussi que l'eugénisme et les manipulations génétiques sont déjà là, que le droit à l'enfant doit être aussi simple et immédiat que le droit à la canette de Coca.
Ce qui fait que l'on détruit tout acte d'instruction et d'enseignement, chaque homme, dès 1 an ayant en lui la toute-puissance et tout savoir transmis étant inutile ou douteux.
Ce qui fait que l'on détruit toute transmission de valeurs, de connaissances, de savoir-faire, je dirais même de simple bon sens (cf. les gens qui s'installent dans des zones submersibles et sont, après, des "victimes").

Comme cela aboutit à des injustices, des inégalités, des problèmes, des catastrophes de tous ordres, on se dit alors "comment cela se fait-il?".
C'est trop dur de penser que chacun est individuellement responsable (de son propre comportement automobile, de ses propres déchets, de l'éducation de ses enfants, de son respect des lois, etc).
Alors on trouve des explications, des justifications extérieures: le discours "victimaire", les discriminations, les élites, le grand capital, etc
et les médias créent des "polémiques", répétés sans fin dans des talk-shows stériles et "fabriqués" ou dans ce sarcasme destructeur continuel.
Et on continue de plus belle: soyons de moins en moins exigeants à l'école, créons des postes pour encadrer chaque geste de chaque jeune, dépensons toujours plus pour soi-disant compenser les fractures sociales.

Egoïsme absolu d'un côté, responsabilité diluée et forcément extérieure de l'autre. Quelle contradiction !

Vraiment, les grands esprits "libéraux" devraient lire Lasch et Michéa, pourtant pas des auteurs de droite...
La destruction post-soixante-huitarde de la famille et de l'école est bien l'exact complément du capitalisme du caddie et de l'écran publicitaire.

Bref. J'arrête là définitivement, sinon je tomberais dans les travers des lignes de "discussion" sur Internet.
Et je reviens à ce qui est fun et ce pourquoi je suis ici:


Amazing to see how quickly Tron is now sidelined by other Villepinists:

Brigitte Girardin ajoute : "Georges Tron a pris une décision personnelle. Depuis le mois de septembre, il voulait entrer au gouvernement. C'est un balladurien, ce n'est pas un pilier du villepinisme."

On another note about a French right divided again:
Borloo should take the opportunity of the carbon tax to quit the government and create a big centre-right party, moderate, eco-friendly.
It's a dream...

Oh, and you're right, Hash, 2011 cantonales and sénatoriales will be bloody.
I really think few UMP apparatchiks will follow Villepin BUT only a fistful of seats are now needed for the left to gain the Senate and Villepin's followers and probable very harsh reaction from loyal sarkozysts locally will contribute to a likely historical swing.

Even if the socialists and the Greens have internal fightings, those on the right will be worse. It's only the beginning of the beginning of 2012, but the momentum is now clearly and deeply on the left.