Who was responsible for the holocaust?

[Middle-aged Europe]

And in the end, who gave Hitler his power in the first place.

Answer: Paul von Hindenburg.

If we're gonna take that tac, let's pin it on Otto von Bismarck.  It was because of that old Prussian fart and his spectacular unification scheme that the Germans learned to put all their trust in one man.  He did achieve peace in what would become the German Empire for nearly three decades.  Or why not just blame the "Allies" (i.e., Limeys, Yanks, and Frogs) who gave the krauts such a raw deal on that boxcar after WWI, and made it so easy for nationalistic types to rally high school students in their undying love for der Führer and his master race.  Or why not blame Neville Chamberlain.  After all, Churchillians blame him for the invasion of poland and the war, and if it weren't for the subjugation of Silesia, all those gas chambers wouldn't have been built in Silesia in the first place.

Who killed the kikes?  Wo killed the kennedys?  Who put the bop in bop-she-bop?  Here's a clue:  you and me, baby.  there's no evil that we didn't create. 

"I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank.

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name.
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me"

  --Rolling stones

Not only did Hindenburg appoint Hitler Chancellor, he also signed the Enabling Act and was directly reponsible for the so-called Preußenschlag of 1932, when he unconstitutionally dismissed the government of Prussia and put that state under his direct control... which effectively neutralized one of the strongest bastions (the Prussian cabinet under Otto Braun) against a potential Nazi takeover of Germany.

As for the reason why Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor, I already explained that the election results of the NSDAP in the early 1930ies were a key factor in making this decision. Ironically, in the last Reichstag election before Hitler's appointment to the Chancellorship, the NSDAP had actually lost votes and seats (Nov. 1932: 33.1%), which makes this decision even more questionable.

The point is that Hitler wasn't appointed Chancellor by Bismarck or the French government any other person/nation/institution. It was Hindenburg. And considering the fact that the NSDAP had lost votes in the last election and that an economic recovery was only a matter of time, it should have been possible to sit this one out.


But as I indicated, not only the people who voted for the NSDAP were responsible for Hitler's rise, but also the voters of the KPD (which is also kind of ironic since no other party was so militant in its opposition to the Nazis) as well as Alfred Hugenberg's DNVP. However, I will absolve the voters of the Zentrum party here, because it's unlikely that they could have anticipated the Zentrum's future vote in favour of the Enabling Act (not that it would have withhold all supporters of the Zentrum from voting for their party, had they known it).

Combining the votes for these three parties (NSDAP, DNVP, KPD) in the last free Reichstag election, one could say that 58.5% of the electorate was actively opposed to a democratic system of government at that point. However, the voters of the KPD certainly wanted to see Hitler dead and not in power. And the supporters of the DNVP preferred the restoration of a constitutional monarchy under a strong Emperor (of course, when forced to choose between a democratic republic and an authoritarian/fascist government they chose the latter).

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

George W. Bush.

He's responsible for the everything else, let's give him credit for this.

[Gabu]

THE

JEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWS

[KillerPollo]

THE

JEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWS

see? He knows what I mean!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So KillerPollo's back, someone to add to my ignore list finally.

[12th Doctor]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

[KillerPollo]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

The Nazis knew as much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad knows it.

The jews brought this upon themselves so they will eventually be the ones protected and helped to rocket their way up into Americans' love. See, in America if you say you dislike jews, youre instantly labeled an anti-semite by the zionist-enablers, yet if you say you dislike Islam, you're immediatley praised by those same zionists

[DownWithTheLeft]

Joe Kennedy and FDR

[SPC]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

[Colin]

the NSP in Germany?

To be fair the only two abbreviations of Hitler's political party are Nazi, which is phonetic version of the acronym, or NSDAP, the National Socialist Deutsch Arbeiters Partei (I don't know if there are any spelling changes in the words National or Socialist in German). NSP, according to Wikipedia, either means an opposition party in Singapore, a Network Service Provider, or as an abbreviation for North St. Paul, Minnesota.

[KillerPollo]

the NSP in Germany?

To be fair the only two abbreviations of Hitler's political party are Nazi, which is phonetic version of the acronym, or NSDAP, the National Socialist Deutsch Arbeiters Partei (I don't know if there are any spelling changes in the words National or Socialist in German). NSP, according to Wikipedia, either means an opposition party in Singapore, a Network Service Provider, or as an abbreviation for North St. Paul, Minnesota.

Did you knpw that ppl in germany before it was known as "nazi" pronounced it "nsdap"?

[Middle-aged Europe]

NSDAP stands for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (which btw was a misleading name, since most "workers" tended to support the SPD until the end of the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP was more a party for small business owners etc.)

While the Treaty of Versailles certainly played a role, I also think that its effect is often overestimated. Before 1929/30, the election results of the NSDAP had always been pretty mediocre (relatively speaking). But then came the Great Depression, which caused not only a dramatic increase of the unemployment rate, but also of the NSDAP's share of votes in elections. Aside from the United States, Germany was one of the nations which was hit severest by the Great Depression. That, combined with the fact that the Weimar Republic couldn't hardly called be called an "established" or "stable" democracy led to the rise of the NSDAP (a good analogy for the Weimar Republic would probably be post-1991 Russia... this analogy would also turn Paul von Hindenburg into the German version of Vladmir Putin, which isn't actually too far-fetched. Both had served under the previous regime in military/intelligence positions and weren't very fond of democracy in particular).

A little sidenote: As I said in the beginning, the NSDAP was primarily supported by business owners and not workers. Workers voted SPD, while unemployed people often opted for the KPD. It is one of the many ironies of the history, that Hitler wasn't elected not so much by the unemployed, but because of the unemployment.

[KillerPollo]

NSDAP stands for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (which btw was a misleading name, since most "workers" tended to support the SPD until the end of the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP was more a party for small business owners etc.)

While the Treaty of Versailles certainly played a role, I also think that its effect is often overestimated. Before 1929/30, the election results of the NSDAP had always been pretty mediocre (relatively speaking). But then came the Great Depression, which caused not only a dramatic increase of the unemployment rate, but also of the NSDAP's share of votes in elections. Aside from the United States, Germany was one of the nations which was hit severest by the Great Depression. That, combined with the fact that the Weimar Republic couldn't hardly called be called an "established" or "stable" democracy led to the rise of the NSDAP (a good analogy for the Weimar Republic would probably be post-1991 Russia... this analogy would also turn Paul von Hindenburg into the German version of Vladmir Putin, which isn't actually too far-fetched. Both had served under the previous regime in military/intelligence positions and weren't very fond of democracy in particular).

A little sidenote: As I said in the beginning, the NSDAP was primarily supported by business owners and not workers. Workers voted SPD, while unemployed people often opted for the KPD. It is one of the many ironies of the history, that Hitler wasn't elected not so much by the unemployed, but because of the unemployment.

OldE. You are a Genius. I believe Russia is going to end up with another raw and powerful dictator as president... Perhaps Putin's successor?

I believe it woulkd go back to the Soviet system not in the sense of ideology but in the sense of the organization of power.

[Gustaf]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

Obviously not since they weren't elected in the wake of the Versailles Treaty but a decade later. Sure, it contributed but as Old Europe points out the Depression was really the main factor behind it. What you're spouting is really just Hitler's own old propaganda.

[12th Doctor]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

Where in the Hell did you learn history?  It wasn't "Wilson's Treaty".  Wilson opposed any attempt by the allies at reprisals against the Germans.  Wilson had absolutely no notion of international politics however, and he was completely ignored by the English and French.

[12th Doctor]

Joe Kennedy and FDR

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

The Nazis knew as much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad knows it.

The jews brought this upon themselves so they will eventually be the ones protected and helped to rocket their way up into Americans' love. See, in America if you say you dislike jews, youre instantly labeled an anti-semite by the zionist-enablers, yet if you say you dislike Islam, you're immediatley praised by those same zionists

Might I recommend a book for you two?

[John Dibble]

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

Actually, to call it Wilson's treaty is a little bit unfair. The final treaty that came about isn't the treaty that Wilson really wanted. (look up his Fourteen Points to get an idea) For instance, Wilson wanted there to be no reparations - we all know how that turned out. Wilson did make a number of political blunders that hurt his case, but ultimately the ones that wanted to outright punish Germany and the Central Powers were the European Allies. This was for pretty much the same reasons that the war was possible in the first place. Those reasons are that the nations in Europe at the time were strongly nationalistic and had a good deal of animosity towards eachother. Put this together with a strong desire to expand their territory and you get a powder keg. When the war was over, the hate was reinforced and the Allies really wanted to punish Germany, which made it impossible for Wilson to get the "peace without victory" that he really desired.

Of course, as a libertarian I detest Wilson's horrid treatment of civil rights in regards to war critics on the home front, but he certainly wasn't responsible for the worst of the Treaty of Versaille.

[KillerPollo]

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

Actually, to call it Wilson's treaty is a little bit unfair. The final treaty that came about isn't the treaty that Wilson really wanted. (look up his Fourteen Points to get an idea) For instance, Wilson wanted there to be no reparations - we all know how that turned out. Wilson did make a number of political blunders that hurt his case, but ultimately the ones that wanted to outright punish Germany and the Central Powers were the European Allies. This was for pretty much the same reasons that the war was possible in the first place. Those reasons are that the nations in Europe at the time were strongly nationalistic and had a good deal of animosity towards eachother. Put this together with a strong desire to expand their territory and you get a powder keg. When the war was over, the hate was reinforced and the Allies really wanted to punish Germany, which made it impossible for Wilson to get the "peace without victory" that he really desired.

Of course, as a libertarian I detest Wilson's horrid treatment of civil rights in regards to war critics on the home front, but he certainly wasn't responsible for the worst of the Treaty of Versaille.

I firmly believe that this treaty was pushed forward the most by the French authorities who never again wanted to see Germany as a threat. It was the French who bore the most grudge against that nation at the time. I'm not implying that England and the rest of Europe had nothing to do with it, though.

[HappyWarrior]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

You just have to find a way to make it FDR's fault don't you?  Hitler was shipping Jews off to concentration camps as early as 1939, as soon as he conquered Poland.  I find it sad that you have to blame WWII on FDR, the man who ended the war in the best way possible.  Without him, the world at the moment might still languish under an imperialist Japan, Facist Italy, or Nazi German government.  He was the man who got America into fighting shape to oppose Hitler.

[John Dibble]

Okay, but can you deny that Wilson's unfair Versailles Treaty is what made the Germans mad enough to elect the NSP in Germany?

Actually, to call it Wilson's treaty is a little bit unfair. The final treaty that came about isn't the treaty that Wilson really wanted. (look up his Fourteen Points to get an idea) For instance, Wilson wanted there to be no reparations - we all know how that turned out. Wilson did make a number of political blunders that hurt his case, but ultimately the ones that wanted to outright punish Germany and the Central Powers were the European Allies. This was for pretty much the same reasons that the war was possible in the first place. Those reasons are that the nations in Europe at the time were strongly nationalistic and had a good deal of animosity towards eachother. Put this together with a strong desire to expand their territory and you get a powder keg. When the war was over, the hate was reinforced and the Allies really wanted to punish Germany, which made it impossible for Wilson to get the "peace without victory" that he really desired.

Of course, as a libertarian I detest Wilson's horrid treatment of civil rights in regards to war critics on the home front, but he certainly wasn't responsible for the worst of the Treaty of Versaille.

I firmly believe that this treaty was pushed forward the most by the French authorities who never again wanted to see Germany as a threat. It was the French who bore the most grudge against that nation at the time. I'm not implying that England and the rest of Europe had nothing to do with it, though.

You'd be correct in that assessment.

[SPC]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

You just have to find a way to make it FDR's fault don't you?  Hitler was shipping Jews off to concentration camps as early as 1939, as soon as he conquered Poland.  I find it sad that you have to blame WWII on FDR, the man who ended the war in the best way possible.  Without him, the world at the moment might still languish under an imperialist Japan, Facist Italy, or Nazi German government.  He was the man who got America into fighting shape to oppose Hitler.

Well, if you looked it up, you would find that Hitler was going to send the Jews in Madagascar, but decided to go with extermination after the USA entered the war. Are you even going to accept that FDR's peacetime draft in 1940 was a sign that he intended to get America into the war before America was attacked?

[HappyWarrior]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

You just have to find a way to make it FDR's fault don't you?  Hitler was shipping Jews off to concentration camps as early as 1939, as soon as he conquered Poland.  I find it sad that you have to blame WWII on FDR, the man who ended the war in the best way possible.  Without him, the world at the moment might still languish under an imperialist Japan, Facist Italy, or Nazi German government.  He was the man who got America into fighting shape to oppose Hitler.

Well, if you looked it up, you would find that Hitler was going to send the Jews in Madagascar, but decided to go with extermination after the USA entered the war. Are you even going to accept that FDR's peacetime draft in 1940 was a sign that he intended to get America into the war before America was attacked?

He did'nt want a war, he was simply planning for the really likely possibity as any truely reasonable leader would have.

[CultureKing]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

You just have to find a way to make it FDR's fault don't you?  Hitler was shipping Jews off to concentration camps as early as 1939, as soon as he conquered Poland.  I find it sad that you have to blame WWII on FDR, the man who ended the war in the best way possible.  Without him, the world at the moment might still languish under an imperialist Japan, Facist Italy, or Nazi German government.  He was the man who got America into fighting shape to oppose Hitler.

Well, if you looked it up, you would find that Hitler was going to send the Jews in Madagascar, but decided to go with extermination after the USA entered the war. Are you even going to accept that FDR's peacetime draft in 1940 was a sign that he intended to get America into the war before America was attacked?

Hitler had been going through with his plan since he started rounding up the Jews in the late 30's, the fact that you are trying to blame FDR is almost or is offensive. By the way where are you getting this Madagascar none-sense? I have never heard of this in all my readings about WW2.

[Middle-aged Europe]

To be fair, I heard of that Madagascar thing before. But as far as I know the Nazis simply figured out that it would have been much too expensive and hardly practicable to ship all European Jews to Madagascar... so instead they decided too kill them all, because that way it was more "cost-effective".

Ah, and btw, Germany declared war on the United States and not the other way around. Don't ask me why, but somehow Hitler felt it necessary to declare war on the U.S. after Japan had attacked Pearl Harbour, despite the fact that Germany wasn't obliged to do so under the Tripartite Pact of 1940 (the Tripartite Pact would have bound Germany to help its allies in cases when they're attacked, but not in cases when those allies decided to attack other nations on their own).

I guess it was another sign for Hitler's delusions of grandeur. Somehow he thought that he would be able to defeat all major powers in the world simultaneously.

[HappyWarrior]

Does anyone have any links to the Madagascar thing?