Who was responsible for the holocaust?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, Wikipedia has an entry about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

At the end of the article you can also find three links to reliable sites about the topic... I think.

[SPC]

Well, I may have been a little rash about blaming FDR for it. However, when Jews wanted to emigrate to the US, he wasn't so friendly.

[HappyWarrior]

Well the fact is that he did'nt know that they were experiencing any worse treatment than American blacks until it was to late.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Joe Kennedy and FDR

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

Oh, come one.  Do you really buy that stuff?  THe Nazis had already killed thousands of Jews in Poland and Russia before Dec 1941 rolled around, and if they had not intended to build the camps, then they must have swtiched gears pretty quick, because they were fully functional within months of when the US got in the war.

There was no "Plan B".  "Plan A" had always been extermination, and if you don't believe me, it is all laid out in Mein Kampf.  The only people who didn't believe Hitler meant what he said about killing Jews were the Western leaders who couldn't imagine it.

The Nazis knew as much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad knows it.

The jews brought this upon themselves so they will eventually be the ones protected and helped to rocket their way up into Americans' love. See, in America if you say you dislike jews, youre instantly labeled an anti-semite by the zionist-enablers, yet if you say you dislike Islam, you're immediatley praised by those same zionists

Might I recommend a book for you two?

Why are you arguing with a troll? Save your time and click on that little "ignore" button instead.

[HappyWarrior]

Well, Wikipedia has an entry about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

At the end of the article you can also find three links to reliable sites about the topic... I think.

Even those articles do not blame it on Roosevelt though, it was the problem of logistics that ruined that plan.  Also, it was never accepted much by Hitler, it was more Himmler's master plan than his.  Hitler thought of it as another ghetto and we all know what happened to ghettos in Nazi territory, they were emptied and exterminated.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Blame the marginal heartland voters FDR was trying to court for him not letting any in.

[Michael Z]

Directly or indirectly? If you mean directly, then it would be the Nazis. But, if you mean indirectly, then it would be Woodrow Wilson and Fraklin Delano Roosevelt. Wilson is indirectly responsible for the Holocaust because his unfair Verssailes Treaty led to a radical like Adolf Hitler getting elected in Germany. FDR was also responsible because he provoked Japan to attack us, thus getting the U.S. into World War II. Hitler's original plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar, but when FDR declared war against Germany, Hitler responded by going to Plan B: Extermination.

You just have to find a way to make it FDR's fault don't you?  Hitler was shipping Jews off to concentration camps as early as 1939, as soon as he conquered Poland.  I find it sad that you have to blame WWII on FDR, the man who ended the war in the best way possible.  Without him, the world at the moment might still languish under an imperialist Japan, Facist Italy, or Nazi German government.  He was the man who got America into fighting shape to oppose Hitler.

Well, if you looked it up, you would find that Hitler was going to send the Jews in Madagascar, but decided to go with extermination after the USA entered the war.

The decision for the "final solution" had nothing to do with the US's involvement in the war. Hitler basically wanted to wipe Russia off the map and have Germany expand eastwards in its stead ("Greater Germany"), and he absolutely believed that all Slavonic peoples should be either "Germanised" (read Rosenberg's assessment of Minsk) or exterminated to make room for the German people to move eastwards ("Lebensraum"). This was because he felt that Germany needed to be of a massive size in order to be a "proper" empire in the fashion of the Roman Empire or Napoleon's France (which stretched from Hamburg to Catalonia), and that eastern expansion was perfect for the plan since the Slavs were, in his eyes, subhuman anyway and could thus be easily dispensed with. I'll get to how this lead to the Holocaust against the Jews in a second.

When WW2 stopped going according to plan for Hitler (ie. German troops started losing battles, primarily against Russian forces) roundabout 41-42, the "final solution" was set in force. Up to this point, Jews had been used as slave labour to "support" the war effort, but with more at stake, they were now made to work until they dropped dead with little food or water to support them - those deemed "useless" from the start (ie. women, children, pensioners) were killed immediately most of the time upon arriving in the concentration camps (which, up until the end of the 1930s, were used for "re-educating" political prisoners).

But then what's new. Point being, after all this digressing, the Holocaust had nothing to do with the US's involvement in the war, it would have happened either way.

[HappyWarrior]

I've read in many places that they started killing the Jews as early as 1940.

[Michael Z]

I've read in many places that they started killing the Jews as early as 1940.

It wouldn't surprise me. However, it didn't become an (in)official government policy until the 1942 Wannsee Conference.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Even those articles do not blame it on Roosevelt though, it was the problem of logistics that ruined that plan.

Yeah, as I said, the plan was doomed when the Nazis figured out that this was very hardly realizable. Even for radical anti-Semites this whole Madagascar thing was a pretty absurd plan in the first place.

Also, it was never accepted much by Hitler, it was more Himmler's master plan than his.  Hitler thought of it as another ghetto and we all know what happened to ghettos in Nazi territory, they were emptied and exterminated.

Well, this could have happened too.

[Gustaf]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

[Gabu]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

[KillerPollo]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

Yeah! deporting them to Madagascar or South America was a much better idea than exterminating them.

[MasterJedi]

Well the fact is that he did'nt know that they were experiencing any worse treatment than American blacks until it was to late.

He actually did know a lot but chose not to do much about it when he could.

[HappyWarrior]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

Yeah! deporting them to Madagascar or South America was a much better idea than exterminating them.

The fact is deportation would'nt have been the end of it.  If Hitler had had his way the whole world would have been under his control, thus he would have had no where left to deport them to.  Therefore he inevitably would have started the Holocaust.

[Colin]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

Yeah! deporting them to Madagascar or South America was a much better idea than exterminating them.

The fact is deportation would'nt have been the end of it.  If Hitler had had his way the whole world would have been under his control, thus he would have had no where left to deport them to.  Therefore he inevitably would have started the Holocaust.

Sorry to bust your "Adolf Hitler was bent on world conquest" bubble but, in reality, from his writings on what he would do in the post-War and his views on the rest of the world he would have basically disengaged from the rest of the world while solidifying the Reich's control over the only continent that, in Hitler's mind, meant anything, Europe. He wanted to bring all of Europe under his dominion and, especially, use Britain, under a puppet monarch, to do whatever bidding he wanted in world affairs outside of Europe. Also once you get outside of Europe alot of problem occur, such as bumping into the great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or American global interests, which Germany really couldn't piss off. Hitler most likely thought that after the War, if he won it, there would be a cold war between the United States and Germany, since the United States was one of the few "civilized" nations that Hitler couldn't control in his "Europe is everything" strategy.

All in all a victorious Third Reich would be more "isolationist" than the Soviet Union was, since it wouldn't have the ideological imperative to spread revolution, and would have left most non-European and non-American foreign policy to satelitte states like the British Empire. The "Hitler bent on World Domination" is about as much of a fiction as the "Hitler bent on invading the US" is, ie both were basically made up for war propaganda means during the 40s. Not saying that a Europe only Hitler would be any better, I shudder to think what horrible things he could have accomplished with even more time to rule, just not the "Hitler takes over the world" type scenario people think would happen.

The problem with deportation is that the Nazis wouldn't have just left them there and said, "Okay this is your Jewish only state don't bug us again." According to what I can find on Plan Madagascar the whole island would be run as a very very large ghetto, with SS patroling the streets and the Jewish people only given the veneer of independence when in fact they were basically being held in a prison by the government of the Third Reich. The whole island would just be a very large and slightly more free and open prison camp.

[KillerPollo]

What I was going for previously on another Nazi discussion board was that if Hitler had Taken Europe, and developed his empire, he would probably do all in his power to prevent the creation of israel.

ALso, it would not be a two-sided cold war scenario, but rather THREE! woth Japan in the equation. After  Hitler had won, he would no longer need Japanese help in his affairs, and so alienating the Japs, It would become an angry 3-sided competition, with the Japanese side of it being a lot more rough politics than the German one. I could see the Japanese having J-backed revolutions in minor asian countries for the purpose of turning them into J-Satellites.

[SPC]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

Yeah! deporting them to Madagascar or South America was a much better idea than exterminating them.

The fact is deportation would'nt have been the end of it.  If Hitler had had his way the whole world would have been under his control, thus he would have had no where left to deport them to.  Therefore he inevitably would have started the Holocaust.

Sorry to bust your "Adolf Hitler was bent on world conquest" bubble but, in reality, from his writings on what he would do in the post-War and his views on the rest of the world he would have basically disengaged from the rest of the world while solidifying the Reich's control over the only continent that, in Hitler's mind, meant anything, Europe. He wanted to bring all of Europe under his dominion and, especially, use Britain, under a puppet monarch, to do whatever bidding he wanted in world affairs outside of Europe. Also once you get outside of Europe alot of problem occur, such as bumping into the great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or American global interests, which Germany really couldn't piss off. Hitler most likely thought that after the War, if he won it, there would be a cold war between the United States and Germany, since the United States was one of the few "civilized" nations that Hitler couldn't control in his "Europe is everything" strategy.

All in all a victorious Third Reich would be more "isolationist" than the Soviet Union was, since it wouldn't have the ideological imperative to spread revolution, and would have left most non-European and non-American foreign policy to satelitte states like the British Empire. The "Hitler bent on World Domination" is about as much of a fiction as the "Hitler bent on invading the US" is, ie both were basically made up for war propaganda means during the 40s. Not saying that a Europe only Hitler would be any better, I shudder to think what horrible things he could have accomplished with even more time to rule, just not the "Hitler takes over the world" type scenario people think would happen.

The problem with deportation is that the Nazis wouldn't have just left them there and said, "Okay this is your Jewish only state don't bug us again." According to what I can find on Plan Madagascar the whole island would be run as a very very large ghetto, with SS patroling the streets and the Jewish people only given the veneer of independence when in fact they were basically being held in a prison by the government of the Third Reich. The whole island would just be a very large and slightly more free and open prison camp.

Well, didn't Stalin and his Communist allies actually kill more people than Hitler did? I don't think there was a real difference from a neutral perspective whether Stalin or Hitler was in power for a longer period of time. Also, the Madagascar plan sounds very similar to Britain's Australia.

[King]

George W. Bush.  He was born in the 1940s.  Coincidence? I think so!

[Middle-aged Europe]

Sorry to bust your "Adolf Hitler was bent on world conquest" bubble but, in reality, from his writings on what he would do in the post-War and his views on the rest of the world he would have basically disengaged from the rest of the world while solidifying the Reich's control over the only continent that, in Hitler's mind, meant anything, Europe. He wanted to bring all of Europe under his dominion and, especially, use Britain, under a puppet monarch, to do whatever bidding he wanted in world affairs outside of Europe. Also once you get outside of Europe alot of problem occur, such as bumping into the great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or American global interests, which Germany really couldn't piss off. Hitler most likely thought that after the War, if he won it, there would be a cold war between the United States and Germany, since the United States was one of the few "civilized" nations that Hitler couldn't control in his "Europe is everything" strategy.

This is also basically a summary for Robert Harris' novel "Fatherland".

[afleitch]

I think Colin, is broadly speaking spot on.

It is likely that Britain would retain a broad degree of independence anyway, including the continuination of democracy and elections even if it was just a 'face'. It is probable that its economy would be 'tithed' and undersirables would be, broadly banished and executed but by the 50's/60's it would pretty much be free to follow its own path, however its foreign policy would be 'pro German' (think of a German NATO / European Community being established) with a few German military bases.

[??????????]

I think Colin, is broadly speaking spot on.

It is likely that Britain would retain a broad degree of independence anyway, including the continuination of democracy and elections even if it was just a 'face'. It is probable that its economy would be 'tithed' and undersirables would be, broadly banished and executed but by the 50's/60's it would pretty much be free to follow its own path, however its foreign policy would be 'pro German' (think of a German NATO / European Community being established) with a few German military bases.

I guess my question goes into the realm of Alternative History but I'll ask it. How long would the Reich have gone on after Hitlers death?

[afleitch]

I think Colin, is broadly speaking spot on.

It is likely that Britain would retain a broad degree of independence anyway, including the continuination of democracy and elections even if it was just a 'face'. It is probable that its economy would be 'tithed' and undersirables would be, broadly banished and executed but by the 50's/60's it would pretty much be free to follow its own path, however its foreign policy would be 'pro German' (think of a German NATO / European Community being established) with a few German military bases.

I guess my question goes into the realm of Alternative History but I'll ask it. How long would the Reich have gone on after Hitlers death?

It all depends on when he dies. I would suggest he would probably be dead by the late 60's. If he remains a strong and commanding leader then I think the Reich would suffer more than it would if Hitler 'gently decline' and other leaders took on responsibility. Hitler trained a generation of youth for war not work. By the 60's these young adults are probably going to be required to do work and to learn, to be 'deprogrammed' if you will from that mentality, if Hitler sees that as a need. There is only so much slave labour can do when the world economy begins to become more technologically relaint. Economically, Hitler was a socialist; the rejection of rampant capitalism (which would be adopted by the Japanese with great ease) would hurt the German economy. Civil war? Possibly.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

I think Colin, is broadly speaking spot on.

It is likely that Britain would retain a broad degree of independence anyway, including the continuination of democracy and elections even if it was just a 'face'. It is probable that its economy would be 'tithed' and undersirables would be, broadly banished and executed but by the 50's/60's it would pretty much be free to follow its own path, however its foreign policy would be 'pro German' (think of a German NATO / European Community being established) with a few German military bases.

I guess my question goes into the realm of Alternative History but I'll ask it. How long would the Reich have gone on after Hitlers death?

Not long

[HappyWarrior]

It is partly true that the Holocaust accelerated because the Nazis were losing the War. But I don't really think that makes it the fault of the Allies...

Well, obviously the Allies should have just respected Germany's sovereignty and Hitler obviously would have been satisfied then.

Yeah! deporting them to Madagascar or South America was a much better idea than exterminating them.

The fact is deportation would'nt have been the end of it.  If Hitler had had his way the whole world would have been under his control, thus he would have had no where left to deport them to.  Therefore he inevitably would have started the Holocaust.

Sorry to bust your "Adolf Hitler was bent on world conquest" bubble but, in reality, from his writings on what he would do in the post-War and his views on the rest of the world he would have basically disengaged from the rest of the world while solidifying the Reich's control over the only continent that, in Hitler's mind, meant anything, Europe. He wanted to bring all of Europe under his dominion and, especially, use Britain, under a puppet monarch, to do whatever bidding he wanted in world affairs outside of Europe. Also once you get outside of Europe alot of problem occur, such as bumping into the great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or American global interests, which Germany really couldn't piss off. Hitler most likely thought that after the War, if he won it, there would be a cold war between the United States and Germany, since the United States was one of the few "civilized" nations that Hitler couldn't control in his "Europe is everything" strategy.

All in all a victorious Third Reich would be more "isolationist" than the Soviet Union was, since it wouldn't have the ideological imperative to spread revolution, and would have left most non-European and non-American foreign policy to satelitte states like the British Empire. The "Hitler bent on World Domination" is about as much of a fiction as the "Hitler bent on invading the US" is, ie both were basically made up for war propaganda means during the 40s. Not saying that a Europe only Hitler would be any better, I shudder to think what horrible things he could have accomplished with even more time to rule, just not the "Hitler takes over the world" type scenario people think would happen.

The problem with deportation is that the Nazis wouldn't have just left them there and said, "Okay this is your Jewish only state don't bug us again." According to what I can find on Plan Madagascar the whole island would be run as a very very large ghetto, with SS patroling the streets and the Jewish people only given the veneer of independence when in fact they were basically being held in a prison by the government of the Third Reich. The whole island would just be a very large and slightly more free and open prison camp.

Following the defeat of Hitler's army, in his summer home were found hand written papers calling for "Operation Ikarus" a plan by Hitler to take over Iceland and then from there to launch an invasion of the U.S. beginning with a bombing of NYC.

They also developed a bomber made specifically to go over the Atlantic from Germany and reach the Eastern United States.  The so called Amerika Bomber.

There were also plans for a Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe attack against the Panama Canal, a U.S. territory at the time. The former would use submarines to strike the Atlantic side of the Canal. The latter would send a squadron of ultra long-range bombers from France to North Africa, before continuing to South America in support of a neutral country