How to I justify voting for someone complicit in genocide?

[Dr. Cynic]

Look, vote for whoever you want, but it wouldn't matter which President was in office. What Israel is doing, it was always going to do. The most any President can do is basically what Biden is doing. We're never going to cease arms sales to Israel because of their geopolitical position as a buffer in a largely hostile region.

You need to make your own mind up, just with the knowledge that the other option could very well result in a genocide here.

[HisGrace]

1. Anything currently happening in Israel can't be called a genocide by any reasonable measure. With the kind of firepower the Israelis have they could kill everyone in Gaza in 20 minutes if that was their goal. If you're a total pacifist who doesn't approve of any kind of collateral damage, fine (in which case you should be just as much against Hamas, though) but that's not the same thing as genocide.

2. Biden's control over this is extremely limited and there's no evidence there would be a significant change in the situation by him being voted out of office.

[pppolitics]

1. Anything currently happening in Israel can't be called a genocide by any reasonable measure. With the kind of firepower the Israelis have they could kill everyone in Gaza in 20 minutes if that was their goal. If you're a total pacifist who doesn't approve of any kind of collateral damage, fine (in which case you should be just as much against Hamas, though) but that's not the same thing as genocide.

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

“you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”

- Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

“It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”

- President Isaac Herzog

“[Israel is] imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

- Defence Minister Yoav Gallant

“[t]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”

- Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir

“Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality.”

- Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure Israel Katz

“[w]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”

- Israeli Minister of Finance Bezalel Smotrich

“The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and
flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes … We must talk about the day after. In my mind, we
will hand over lots to all those who fought for Gaza over the years and to those evicted from
Gush Katif”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

“we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

“there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said that one of Israel's options in the war against Hamas could be to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip

“we are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba”

- Israeli Minister of Agriculture Avi Dichter

“now we all have one common goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be replaced.”

- Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee Nissim Vaturi

“Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

- Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Major General Ghassan Alian

"This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza . . . The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave."

- Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister Giora Eiland

“[w]hen you are at war with another country you don't feed them, you don't provide them electricity or gas or water or anything else . . . A country can be attacked in a much broader way, to bring the
country to the brink of dysfunction. This is the necessary outcome of events”

- Giora Eiland

“Israel has no interest in the Gaza Strip being rehabilitated and this is an important point
that needs to be made clear to the Americans”

- Giora Eiland

“if we ever want to see the hostages alive, the only way is to create a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza”

- Giora Eiland

“[water] comes from wells with salt water unfit for consumption. They have water treatment plants, Israel should hit those plants. When the entire world says we have gone insane and this is a humanitarian disaster — we will say, it’s not an end, it’s a means.”

- Giora Eiland

“[C]reate such a huge pressure on Gaza, that Gaza will become an area where people cannot live. People cannot live, until Hamas is destroyed, which means that Israel not only stops to supply energy, diesel, water, food … as we did in the last twenty years … but we should prevent any possible assistance by others, and to create in Gaza such a terrible, unbearable situation, that can last weeks and months”

- Giora Eiland

“the State of Israel has no choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily, or permanently, impossible to live in.”

- Giora Eiland

“Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

- Giora Eiland

“Who are the ‘poor’ women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile . . . The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer . . . It is precisely its civil collapse that will bring the end of the war closer. When senior Israeli figures say in the media ‘It's either us or them’ we should clarify the question of who is ‘them’. ‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”

- President Herzog

“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”

-  Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin

“work[ing] together with all the bodies in the IDF when the goal is clear — to destroy everything that has been touched by the hand of Hamas”

- Head of the Israeli army’s Air Operations Group Lieutenant colonel Gilad Kinan

“[t]he entire Gaza should resemble Beit Hanoun”

Commander in the 2908th Battalion of the Israeli army Yair Ben David

[w]hoever returns here, if they return here after, will find scorched earth. No houses, no agriculture, no nothing. They have no future”

- Israeli Army Colonel, Deputy Head of COGAT Colonel Yogev Bar
Sheshet

“Vengeance is a great value. There is vengeance over what they did to us … This place will be a fallow land. They will not be able to live here”

- Colonel Erez Eshel

'May your village burn'!! Yes, yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's a great morale to wish Gaza to be wiped out and set on fire. I have often said revenge is a value. They almost occupied the kibbutzim of the south, slaughtered, raped, decapitated and gouged out eyes, almost 1400 were murdered in one Shabbat. So let their village burn. And if 'La Familia' sing it, it's because they understand that the enemy only understands power! And more power.

-  Revital Gottlieb

"They used the word revenge a lot. I don't think it's revenge - it's justice. If you ask me on a personal level - I flatten Gaza, I have no sentiments. Because the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza"

- Keti sh**trit

Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth.
That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence and try to enter Egyptian territory.
or they will die.
And their death is evil.
Gaza should be erased.
And fire and smoke on the heads of the Nazis in Judea and Samaria.
Haron is also a Jew who will shake the earth of the world.
A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here.
Anything less is immoral.
Just unethical."

- Tally Gotliv

"Shelling from the air without mercy!! It is enough to feel sorry for cruel people at such painful prices. It is enough to feel sorry for Gazans who are not involved. There are no uninvolved. Any Gazan who remains in a combat location is assisting a terrorist organization. enough!
Change diskette. Destroy every place where there are terrorists and terrorist aides. from the air!!
Do not endanger soldiers if you can shell from the air!"

- Tally Gotliv

"There are no innocents in Gaza."

- Avigdor Liberman

“the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza”

-  Katrin “Keti” sh**trit-Peretz

“the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves”

- Meirav Ben-Ari

“there should be one sentence for everyone there — death”

-  Yitzhak Kroizer

“[w]e must not forget that even the ‘innocent citizens’ — the cruel and monstrous people from Gaza took an active part . . . there is no place for any humanitarian gesture — the memory of Amalek must be protested”

- Boaz Bismouth

“[w]ithout hunger and thirst among the Gazan population, we will not be able to recruit collaborators”

- Revital Gottlieb

"Nuclear Missile! Nuclear Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces.
Nuclear weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength"

- Tally Gotliv

"Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear."

-  Ariel Kallner

[wnwnwn]

Which side do you think would care more about you?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

1. Anything currently happening in Israel can't be called a genocide by any reasonable measure. With the kind of firepower the Israelis have they could kill everyone in Gaza in 20 minutes if that was their goal.

If Israel nuked Gaza, Pakistan might nuke Israel in retaliation.

[All Along The Watchtower]

If you live in a non-competitive state, vote third party/write-in/leave the presidential ballot line blank.

If you live in a swing state, I’d advise voting for Biden but of course it’s your right as a citizen not to.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Every President of the United States in modern times has been complicit in some genocide or another (yes, even Carter; look into Óscar Romero's attempts to get a hold of him sometime). The same is true of the leaders of every other major power, and for that matter of almost all citizens of major powers who aren't their leaders. Our standard of living is predicated on immense amounts of suffering, either past and present suffering in the form of realpolitik and developing-world labor exploitation or future suffering in the form of climate and ecosystem collapse. You need to either disengage from the US mainstream completely in favor of some eremitic micro-society in the woods somewhere, like Ted Kaczynski or Kamo no Chōmei, or commit to the slow drudging work of forcing the less-genocidal options, like those of us who are appalled by what's happening in Gaza but are still going to vote for the candidate who's less uncritically in favor of it.

[Velasco]

Every President of the United States in modern times has been complicit in some genocide or another (yes, even Carter; look into Óscar Romero's attempts to get a hold of him sometime). The same is true of the leaders of every other major power, and for that matter of almost all citizens of major powers who aren't their leaders. Our standard of living is predicated on immense amounts of suffering, either past and present suffering in the form of realpolitik and developing-world labor exploitation or future suffering in the form of climate and ecosystem collapse. You need to either disengage from the US mainstream completely in favor of some eremitic micro-society in the woods somewhere, like Ted Kaczynski or Kamo no Chōmei, or commit to the slow drudging work of forcing the less-genocidal options, like those of us who are appalled by what's happening in Gaza but are still goiote for the candidate who's less uncritically in favor of it.

Everything you say about the world order is true. The question is whether you can accept that state of affairs without falling into void cynicism, unwilling to realize that nothing lasts forever. People accepting that inflicting suffering on others is the natural law should be willing to accept that violence is the natural consequence of the order they support. Far from that, they play the role of victims and cry for vengeance when they are under attack*. They are immoral and hypocritical, human beings devoid of a basic sense of humanity rooting for their favourite team.

*We must condemn indiscriminate violence always, under any curcumstance.

[Joseph Cao]

1. Anything currently happening in Israel can't be called a genocide by any reasonable measure. With the kind of firepower the Israelis have they could kill everyone in Gaza in 20 minutes if that was their goal. If you're a total pacifist who doesn't approve of any kind of collateral damage, fine (in which case you should be just as much against Hamas, though) but that's not the same thing as genocide.

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip

One could make the argument that a similar collection of quotes from various Republican officials, elected officials, and rank and file, which have been polluting the USGD for who knows how many years now, provides exactly the same amount of evidence for a genocide in these united States.

[John Dule]

1. Anything currently happening in Israel can't be called a genocide by any reasonable measure. With the kind of firepower the Israelis have they could kill everyone in Gaza in 20 minutes if that was their goal. If you're a total pacifist who doesn't approve of any kind of collateral damage, fine (in which case you should be just as much against Hamas, though) but that's not the same thing as genocide.

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip

One could make the argument that a similar collection of quotes from various Republican officials, elected officials, and rank and file, which have been polluting the USGD for who knows how many years now, provides exactly the same amount of evidence for a genocide in these united States.

Huh? Where in the US are Republicans shelling civilian populations?

[Samof94]

People don't vote for Xi, who is involved in a genocide. It is not like they have any say at all in the matter.

[GeneralMacArthur]

In case ppppolitics re-posting his giant wall of quotes spam again didn't make it clear, this thread isn't an actual serious question, it's just ppppolitics masturbating and demanding you all watch and participate.  He just wants yet another personal thread to talk to you guys about how rotten Israel is and how much he hates the, erm, Zionists.  Now that his "what Israel is doing to Palestine is worse than what the Nazis did to Anne Frank" thread got locked.

[Mr. Illini]

I prefer to look at it pragmatically.

1) One of two men is going to be President beginning January 2025 and those two men are Trump and Biden (unless one of them dies). Which one do you want to be making those decisions?

2) You are one of 150 million+ people that will vote in this election. Don’t let it weigh on your conscience too much.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Every President of the United States in modern times has been complicit in some genocide or another (yes, even Carter; look into Óscar Romero's attempts to get a hold of him sometime). The same is true of the leaders of every other major power, and for that matter of almost all citizens of major powers who aren't their leaders. Our standard of living is predicated on immense amounts of suffering, either past and present suffering in the form of realpolitik and developing-world labor exploitation or future suffering in the form of climate and ecosystem collapse. You need to either disengage from the US mainstream completely in favor of some eremitic micro-society in the woods somewhere, like Ted Kaczynski or Kamo no Chōmei, or commit to the slow drudging work of forcing the less-genocidal options, like those of us who are appalled by what's happening in Gaza but are still goiote for the candidate who's less uncritically in favor of it.

Everything you say about the world order is true. The question is whether you can accept that state of affairs without falling into void cynicism, unwilling to realize that nothing lasts forever. People accepting that inflicting suffering on others is the natural law should be willing to accept that violence is the natural consequence of the order they support. Far from that, they play the role of victims and cry for vengeance when they are under attack*. They are immoral and hypocritical, human beings devoid of a basic sense of humanity rooting for their favourite team.

*We must condemn indiscriminate violence always, under any curcumstance.

Just numbing oneself and accepting it as the way of things isn't either of the options I'm advocating here, even though you and I might disagree on some of the exact courses of action that do and don't constitute doing so. I also agree with your implications that Israelis, just as much as Americans and Russians and Chinese and whatever else, as a people have a serious problem with exactly this kind of numbed complacency. But I still don't really think pppolitics's response to this set of facts is a morally responsible one.

[HisGrace]

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

Most those quotes are standard militaristic propaganda you hear from both sides in every war. US and British WWII propaganda compared Germans to animals and talked about going to war against the entire nation but that doesn't mean they committed genocide against Germany because words are different than actions.

20k people dying out of a population of 2 million is not a genocide. You can view that as an unacceptable rate of collateral damage but if Israel wanted to systematically murder everyone in Gaza they could have done it by now.

[Blow by blow, the passion dies]

Not a genocide ffs

[You don't see any blue avatars now]

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

[Various quotes]

Ever heard of the phrase "war crimes?"

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

If this isn't genocide, I don't know what would be:

Key words in this post, and all of your other posts, is "I don't know."

[pppolitics]

If you live in a non-competitive state, vote third party/write-in/leave the presidential ballot line blank.

If you live in a swing state, I’d advise voting for Biden but of course it’s your right as a citizen not to.

Years from now, what Israel is doing will become a textbook example of genocide.

Biden will do down in infamy as being complicit.

I don't want to tell people that I voted for this guy.

That is my concern.

[Devils30]

If you live in a non-competitive state, vote third party/write-in/leave the presidential ballot line blank.

If you live in a swing state, I’d advise voting for Biden but of course it’s your right as a citizen not to.

Years from now, what Israel is doing will become a textbook example of genocide.

Biden will do down in infamy as being complicit.

I don't want to tell people that I voted for this guy.

That is my concern.

Nah, for one it’s not a genocide and two, people don’t have a long attention span. But I’m sure Trump will treat the Palestinians with the utmost dignity and respect lol.

[pppolitics]

If you live in a non-competitive state, vote third party/write-in/leave the presidential ballot line blank.

If you live in a swing state, I’d advise voting for Biden but of course it’s your right as a citizen not to.

Years from now, what Israel is doing will become a textbook example of genocide.

Biden will do down in infamy as being complicit.

I don't want to tell people that I voted for this guy.

That is my concern.

Nah, for one it’s not a genocide and two, people don’t have a long attention span. But I’m sure Trump will treat the Palestinians with the utmost dignity and respect lol.

Tell me, why is "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth" not genocide?

How do you justify that?

[Devils30]

If you live in a non-competitive state, vote third party/write-in/leave the presidential ballot line blank.

If you live in a swing state, I’d advise voting for Biden but of course it’s your right as a citizen not to.

Years from now, what Israel is doing will become a textbook example of genocide.

Biden will do down in infamy as being complicit.

I don't want to tell people that I voted for this guy.

That is my concern.

Nah, for one it’s not a genocide and two, people don’t have a long attention span. But I’m sure Trump will treat the Palestinians with the utmost dignity and respect lol.

Tell me, why is "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth" not genocide?

How do you justify that?

Because the Gaza strip will not be erased from the earth even if Hamas is.

[°Leprechaun]

If you're voting between one genocide or two, vote for one. Harm reduction is the point of this election. Nothing will improve if Biden wins, but things will get a hell of a lot worse if Trump wins.

Good point.

[YE]

Good thing there’s no candidates for president doing such.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Out of curiosity does anyone have an actual table of Palestinian death toll by day?

I was surprised that I couldn't find any such data.

The perception I have is that despite the Palestinians being completely cornered in a small, open area where they're extremely vulnerable and defenseless against any Israeli attacks -- to the point where Israel could probably kill thousands in half a second if they wanted to -- the death count has actually been steadily declining for a little while now.

This is based on a few snippets I see of people saying like "150 people were killed in Gaza today, Israel's recreation of the Holocaust continues" whereas I remember in Jan/Dec it was more like "500 people were killed in Gaza today, Israel's recreation of the Holocaust continues."

Of course we are well past the point of anyone trying to pretend like it's Israel's goal to kill all the Gazans, and instead we're now using definitions of "genocide" that are like "blowing up mosques is genocide because Israel is destroying the Gazan culture and identity."  Or, like pppolitics does with his spammy quote wall that he once again posted yesterday in the Israel/Gaza thread, saying "the fact that some Israeli politicians sound like they want to commit genocide is evidence that they secretly are committing genocide even if what's actually happening in reality doesn't reflect this."