How to I justify voting for someone complicit in genocide?

[インターネット掲示板ユーザー Punxsutawney Phil]

Every bit of my conscience is screaming NO!

Meanwhile, Atlas is telling me that the alternative is worse.

It seems that, no matter what I do, I will come to regret it.

Biden has been lobbying for a containing of this conflict.
Meanwhile, the Trump peace plan in 2019...reflects perhaps what Trump would try to achieve. Half-heartedly. Or more specifically, Kushner, who would be in charge of Mideast policy. Do you want Kushner in charge of US foreign policy in the Middle East? Concerning yourself with "moral purity" seems foolish if you're focused on outcomes. If Trump was in charge during this war he might have cheerleaded the pogroms in the West Bank publicly and supported escalation into Lebanon.
Do we want that to be our Middle East approach? You don't like how Biden's handled it, that's okay. But Biden's at least facing pressure from within his own party. Do we really expect pressure on Trump to treat Palestine humanely? Instead, we'll see even more suffering for Palestine. Some GOPers even went to court to push Biden to stop giving money to the Palestinian authority!
Now, Trump himself is rather heterodex and may change things on a whim, but the people around him would likely stop any pro-Palestinian shift. The key to Holy Land policy going into the hands of Jared and extreme hardline anti-Palestinian types - would you really want that? No matter what you do, one of these people will win. Trump may chart a better course, but his presidency ought to produce skepticism that he'd be even on the same level as Biden. Just look at the Abraham Peace Accords...

Which part of "containing this conflict" is bypassing Congress to send more weapons to Israel?

He aggressively shot down efforts by Bibi to expand the war to Lebanon. The weapons sales are a sign of him strongly supporting his version of what he sees as their right to defend themselves but that's just one piece of the puzzle. He's also restraining the bloodlust of quite a bit of the Israeli electorate by presenting a course that is distinct from the settler radicals and Bibi, preventing them from monopolizing the conversation over what to do with Hamas and Gaza.
Right now he's more popular with Israelis than Bibi is, in fact he's very popular among Israelis while Bibi is well underwater. That counts for something...it directly undercuts the settler extremists and their political capital by ensuring they aren't the only ones with credibility.
Biden gets the message that this expanding is not good. He's gotten blowback, lots of it. He's working overtime to try to put out the worst fires. At least he's trying.
As I just said, I doubt Trump can be trusted to treat this conflict well, though I concede he could perform better than in his first term here. Jared really is bad news and under Trump he's back to play. the 2017-2021 role, again. Is that worth it?

That’s a lot of mental gymnastics.

All Biden had to do was sit this one out.

Israel runs out of weapons. War ends.

Instead, he chose to send more weapons and become complicit in this genocide.

I will note I have spoken at length about specifics about what's influenced the Trump administration policies on Israel. I myself remember the reaction the Trump peace plan got among me and my Muslim family, which was, not favorable. Trump himself was the most antagonistic president to the interests of Palestinians over the entire past 30-40 years. And you've completely ignored this in favor of... criticizing Biden. Again.
Harm reduction is a thing. You don't have to even take note of the more solidly doctrinaire Zionism of this country to note that Trump's track record during the presidency is something he has to prove he has changed from. You choose not to go back to that era, whether you realize it or not, but those willing to look at the past earnestly will.

I think you're also not realizing that Israel has its own strengths. Such as being in the top 10 arms exporters in the world. They make their own battle tanks, missiles, and many other weapons. In many ways, we buy from them as much as vice versa. A nation like that running out of weapons feels fanciful. In fact, they don't need us as much as we need them. We are an empire in slow relative decline and what the Israelis give us helps slow this decline down significantly.

You should wake up.

I won't deny that we've taken a significant PR penalty in the short term. But unpopular countries can be of use, in this case, especially if they have strong industries that long-running ties with us mean we share in what they produce.
Israel isn't known for being a technology hub for no reason.

[Transgender for Everybody]

Good thing we had people like you around in 1968. Everyone was furious with Johnson's handling of Vietnam, so they took a principled stand and refused to vote for Humphrey. This resulted in antiwar pacifist Richard Nixon winning the presidency, and everything was fixed. Something similar will happen this coming November.

Except Nixon winning in 1968 was good

Please don't take this too seriously; I know you can't help it. There's nothing wrong with being stupid outside of the fact.

[Goldwater]

Good thing we had people like you around in 1968. Everyone was furious with Johnson's handling of Vietnam, so they took a principled stand and refused to vote for Humphrey. This resulted in antiwar pacifist Richard Nixon winning the presidency, and everything was fixed. Something similar will happen this coming November.

Except Nixon winning in 1968 was good

Sure, from a center-right perspective. But it was presumably not very good from the anti-war hippie perspective.

[pppolitics]

Every bit of my conscience is screaming NO!

Meanwhile, Atlas is telling me that the alternative is worse.

It seems that, no matter what I do, I will come to regret it.

Biden has been lobbying for a containing of this conflict.
Meanwhile, the Trump peace plan in 2019...reflects perhaps what Trump would try to achieve. Half-heartedly. Or more specifically, Kushner, who would be in charge of Mideast policy. Do you want Kushner in charge of US foreign policy in the Middle East? Concerning yourself with "moral purity" seems foolish if you're focused on outcomes. If Trump was in charge during this war he might have cheerleaded the pogroms in the West Bank publicly and supported escalation into Lebanon.
Do we want that to be our Middle East approach? You don't like how Biden's handled it, that's okay. But Biden's at least facing pressure from within his own party. Do we really expect pressure on Trump to treat Palestine humanely? Instead, we'll see even more suffering for Palestine. Some GOPers even went to court to push Biden to stop giving money to the Palestinian authority!
Now, Trump himself is rather heterodex and may change things on a whim, but the people around him would likely stop any pro-Palestinian shift. The key to Holy Land policy going into the hands of Jared and extreme hardline anti-Palestinian types - would you really want that? No matter what you do, one of these people will win. Trump may chart a better course, but his presidency ought to produce skepticism that he'd be even on the same level as Biden. Just look at the Abraham Peace Accords...

Which part of "containing this conflict" is bypassing Congress to send more weapons to Israel?

He aggressively shot down efforts by Bibi to expand the war to Lebanon. The weapons sales are a sign of him strongly supporting his version of what he sees as their right to defend themselves but that's just one piece of the puzzle. He's also restraining the bloodlust of quite a bit of the Israeli electorate by presenting a course that is distinct from the settler radicals and Bibi, preventing them from monopolizing the conversation over what to do with Hamas and Gaza.
Right now he's more popular with Israelis than Bibi is, in fact he's very popular among Israelis while Bibi is well underwater. That counts for something...it directly undercuts the settler extremists and their political capital by ensuring they aren't the only ones with credibility.
Biden gets the message that this expanding is not good. He's gotten blowback, lots of it. He's working overtime to try to put out the worst fires. At least he's trying.
As I just said, I doubt Trump can be trusted to treat this conflict well, though I concede he could perform better than in his first term here. Jared really is bad news and under Trump he's back to play. the 2017-2021 role, again. Is that worth it?

That’s a lot of mental gymnastics.

All Biden had to do was sit this one out.

Israel runs out of weapons. War ends.

Instead, he chose to send more weapons and become complicit in this genocide.

I will note I have spoken at length about specifics about what's influenced the Trump administration policies on Israel. I myself remember the reaction the Trump peace plan got among me and my Muslim family, which was, not favorable. Trump himself was the most antagonistic president to the interests of Palestinians over the entire past 30-40 years. And you've completely ignored this in favor of... criticizing Biden. Again.
Harm reduction is a thing. You don't have to even take note of the more solidly doctrinaire Zionism of this country to note that Trump's track record during the presidency is something he has to prove he has changed from. You choose not to go back to that era, whether you realize it or not, but those willing to look at the past earnestly will.

I think you're also not realizing that Israel has its own strengths. Such as being in the top 10 arms exporters in the world. They make their own battle tanks, missiles, and many other weapons. In many ways, we buy from them as much as vice versa. A nation like that running out of weapons feels fanciful. In fact, they don't need us as much as we need them. We are an empire in slow relative decline and what the Israelis give us helps slow this decline down significantly.

You should wake up.

I won't deny that we've taken a significant PR penalty in the short term. But unpopular countries can be of use, in this case, especially if they have strong industries that long-running ties with us mean we share in what they produce.
Israel isn't known for being a technology hub for no reason.

The US funds Israel's arms industry.

Even the development of Israel's much vaunted Iron Dome was funded by the US.

There are plenty country that would lick our shoes to get a fraction of what we give to Israel.

[インターネット掲示板ユーザー Punxsutawney Phil]

Every bit of my conscience is screaming NO!

Meanwhile, Atlas is telling me that the alternative is worse.

It seems that, no matter what I do, I will come to regret it.

Biden has been lobbying for a containing of this conflict.
Meanwhile, the Trump peace plan in 2019...reflects perhaps what Trump would try to achieve. Half-heartedly. Or more specifically, Kushner, who would be in charge of Mideast policy. Do you want Kushner in charge of US foreign policy in the Middle East? Concerning yourself with "moral purity" seems foolish if you're focused on outcomes. If Trump was in charge during this war he might have cheerleaded the pogroms in the West Bank publicly and supported escalation into Lebanon.
Do we want that to be our Middle East approach? You don't like how Biden's handled it, that's okay. But Biden's at least facing pressure from within his own party. Do we really expect pressure on Trump to treat Palestine humanely? Instead, we'll see even more suffering for Palestine. Some GOPers even went to court to push Biden to stop giving money to the Palestinian authority!
Now, Trump himself is rather heterodex and may change things on a whim, but the people around him would likely stop any pro-Palestinian shift. The key to Holy Land policy going into the hands of Jared and extreme hardline anti-Palestinian types - would you really want that? No matter what you do, one of these people will win. Trump may chart a better course, but his presidency ought to produce skepticism that he'd be even on the same level as Biden. Just look at the Abraham Peace Accords...

Which part of "containing this conflict" is bypassing Congress to send more weapons to Israel?

He aggressively shot down efforts by Bibi to expand the war to Lebanon. The weapons sales are a sign of him strongly supporting his version of what he sees as their right to defend themselves but that's just one piece of the puzzle. He's also restraining the bloodlust of quite a bit of the Israeli electorate by presenting a course that is distinct from the settler radicals and Bibi, preventing them from monopolizing the conversation over what to do with Hamas and Gaza.
Right now he's more popular with Israelis than Bibi is, in fact he's very popular among Israelis while Bibi is well underwater. That counts for something...it directly undercuts the settler extremists and their political capital by ensuring they aren't the only ones with credibility.
Biden gets the message that this expanding is not good. He's gotten blowback, lots of it. He's working overtime to try to put out the worst fires. At least he's trying.
As I just said, I doubt Trump can be trusted to treat this conflict well, though I concede he could perform better than in his first term here. Jared really is bad news and under Trump he's back to play. the 2017-2021 role, again. Is that worth it?

That’s a lot of mental gymnastics.

All Biden had to do was sit this one out.

Israel runs out of weapons. War ends.

Instead, he chose to send more weapons and become complicit in this genocide.

I will note I have spoken at length about specifics about what's influenced the Trump administration policies on Israel. I myself remember the reaction the Trump peace plan got among me and my Muslim family, which was, not favorable. Trump himself was the most antagonistic president to the interests of Palestinians over the entire past 30-40 years. And you've completely ignored this in favor of... criticizing Biden. Again.
Harm reduction is a thing. You don't have to even take note of the more solidly doctrinaire Zionism of this country to note that Trump's track record during the presidency is something he has to prove he has changed from. You choose not to go back to that era, whether you realize it or not, but those willing to look at the past earnestly will.

I think you're also not realizing that Israel has its own strengths. Such as being in the top 10 arms exporters in the world. They make their own battle tanks, missiles, and many other weapons. In many ways, we buy from them as much as vice versa. A nation like that running out of weapons feels fanciful. In fact, they don't need us as much as we need them. We are an empire in slow relative decline and what the Israelis give us helps slow this decline down significantly.

You should wake up.

I won't deny that we've taken a significant PR penalty in the short term. But unpopular countries can be of use, in this case, especially if they have strong industries that long-running ties with us mean we share in what they produce.
Israel isn't known for being a technology hub for no reason.

The US funds Israel's arms industry.

Even the development of Israel's much vaunted Iron Dome was funded by the US.

There are plenty country that would lick our shoes to get a fraction of what we give to Israel.

Israel was once a baby. It's now grown up. We helped raise that baby.
It still takes our aid because it'd be dumb not to.

[Devils30]

The iron dome is a defensive system, Israel's actions in Gaza have nothing to do with the iron dome.

[Ferguson97]

If you are a single-issue Gaza voter, then you should still vote for Biden, because Trump would be infinitely worse.

Voting is, above all else, about harm reduction.

[DaleCooper]

If you are a single-issue Gaza voter, then you should still vote for Biden, because Trump would be infinitely worse.

Voting is, above all else, about harm reduction.

He's not concerned about Gaza, he's concerned about his own feelings and how his vote will make him feel.

[GeneralMacArthur]

If you don't do everything in your power to prevent a Trump presidency, then you are either a delusional idiot who's somehow convinced yourself he won't be that bad, or a privileged selfish man who doesn't care because it won't affect you personally that much.

It's really that simple.  You have the power to prevent a Trump presidency, and if you don't exercise it then that says everything.

[Velasco]

There is a wide range of issues that make Biden preferable to Trump, including labour and women's rights. However, his inability and unwillingness to stop Israel's criminal actions in Gaza are enough reasons to stay ar home or cast a protest vote on election day. I am aware a Trump comeback will be an utter disaster for the US and the rest of the world, but I would find extremely difficult to support a senile president complicit in war crimes. Regardless of whether Israel's actions in Gaza amount to genocide, ethnic cleansing or just indiscriminate murder, Biden's unconditional support is morally unacceptable. I don't know if Joe Biden wants to emulate Neville Chamberlain, but certainly he's paving the way to barbarism - a world ruled by the likes of Trump, Putin and Netanyahu.

 Maybe I would face some dilemma living in a swing state, but on the other hand a Trump's comeback look like the inevitable conclusion of the current collision course. We are seemingly heading to a century marked by genocide and climate catastrophe, while the most powerful nation in the world is absurdly polarized between senile leaders like Biden and Trump. Extremely tough choices ahead

Things would have been very different under a moral leader like Bernie Sanders. We'll miss him

[Badger]

If this is the only issue that matters to you, then I'm not sure if there's anything I can say to change your mind.

If there are other issues that you are willing to take into consideration, then you can evaluate the candidates' positions on those issues and then decide which one is more aligned with you on those issues. (Remember: Exit polls in 2020 showed that Biden & Trump won 4% and 5% of voters who viewed them unfavorably, respectively.)

I am not a single-issue voter, but what has happened recently has been so alienating that other issues seem to fade into the background.

That's kind of the definition of a single issue voter. Please don't become one.

I may be just a stranger on an internet politics forum, but I respectfully submit to you that regardless of Biden's handling of the Israeli Gaza war, and whatever objections you have, this country continuing as at least a semi- functioning democracy is just too important. Plus every other issue remotely important to anyone remotely left of center.

And as noted, if you think Biden's handling has been two pro-israeli, Trump will absolutely remove any and all restraints by news even attempted to put on netanyahu, and we'll go full-throated support of Israel leveling Gaza to the ground. If you think the American position on this conflict can't get worse from Biden's by electing trump, you are woefully and dramatically mistaken.

[Beet]

You don't have to vote for him man, you're in California. Like, I want him to win very much, but I would only vote for him if denying Trump the bragging rights of a popular vote victory was very important to me. Otherwise I would vote for Jill Stein.

But if for some reason your avatar is wrong, or let's say you are trying to convince someone living in a swing state, or someone living in a swing state is reading this, I'd say: You can't just let other issues "fade into the background". Politics affects as many people and issues as life is multidimensional and as this world is diverse. Trump would be worse than Biden on virtually every issue, some by a very large margin, not to mention he is even more pro-Likud. That has got to matter. Now is the least of all times that we can just allow nihilism to take over.

[Don't Blame Me, I'm from Massachusetts]

Biden is less pro-Israel than Trump is and is closer to neutral than being pro-Bibi. The whole narrative that he's Bibi's puppet is fictitious, he's trying to please everyone in hopes for a two-state solution which while naive, is not without good intentions and his performative sanctions is proof of this. Unless you want to vote Green or maybe Libertarian depending on who they put up, there is not a major pro-Palestinian candidate.

[Averroës]

If "every bit of your conscience is screaming no," then you don't cast that vote, obviously. I have trouble believing that anyone who describes themselves in this way is open to voting otherwise. There's no reason to agonize over a decision that you've already made in your heart.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Also: every single election cycle we have to go through this -- "convincing" liberal voters to vote for the Democratic candidate, and not stay home or vote Green.

It's always the same.  Doesn't it get exhausting, folks?  Are we really going to do this song and dance for another year?

The only thing to ever come from voting 3P/not voting is disaster.  In 2000, in 2016, in 1968.  Are those elections you want to emulate?

The Green Party doesn't deserve your vote, it's a pathetically disgraceful Russian puppet org full of the worst kinds of hateful conspiracy-addled lunatics.  It has absolutely no chance to ever be relevant beyond spoiler status.  Its greatest ambition is to throw another election to the Republicans.

At the end of the day, these kinds of posts (and we're going to see a lot more of them) are just a masturbatory excuse for the poster to complain about the Dem candidate and then demand that the rest of us give him a handjob and pat his head and either grovel for him to vote D or validate and applaud his stunning and brave decision to "stand on his principles" by making Donald Trump the president of the United States.  Enough!

If you don't do everything in your power to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president, then you are a bad person.  If you take even symbolic action to aid a Trump victory, you are a bad person.  The fact that you have to come up with all this twisted logic and all these tortured reasons to excuse your aiding Trump, and then come on here groveling for validation and approval, shows that deep down you know this to be true.  But you've become so obsessed with the Israel/Palestine conflict, and so deep in the rabbit hole of far-left Biden hate, that it's made "punishing the Dems" over this one issue seem more important than stopping Donald Trump from gaining power on every issue.

Stop indulging this crap folks.

[Adjective-Statement]

You don't.

[Vosem]

If "every bit of your conscience is screaming no," then you don't cast that vote, obviously. I have trouble believing that anyone who describes themselves in this way is open to voting otherwise. There's no reason to agonize over a decision that you've already made in your heart.

I think, particularly for young people who are relatively new to following politics (and who often start paying attention because they are radicalized on some particular issue), "these are all of your options" can sometimes be a very dispiriting realization. I recall explaining the Erdogan vs. Kilicdaroglu race to a quite left-wing Turkish-American, and it taking her a few days to accept that in Turkey you can oppose religion in politics, or you can oppose deporting Syrian refugees, but not both. Similarly I think if you sincerely hold pppolitics' opinions, the realization that all electoral alternatives to Biden critique him for not being supportive enough of the Israeli campaign must be shocking and disillusioning.

But, yeah, everyone has their personal answer to the Trolley Problem and their own belief about when supporting a lesser evil is justified. If pppolitics believes Biden is personally complicit in genocide then he probably shouldn't vote for him. If he believes the US President should restrain the Israeli military, then he should because there is no candidate likelier to do this than Biden. How those positions can be reconciled with each other is up to him.

[インターネット掲示板ユーザー Punxsutawney Phil]

Reminder that under the assumptions required to get to this point and the definitions being used, not voting for Biden makes you more complicit in genocide than Biden or at least just as much, since Trump would likely unleash more nihilistic suffering than Biden would.

[CheapDollarEra?]

Trump would probably be more pro Israel than Biden.
Maybe Biden is more of a zionist at heart than Trump (even if Biden zionism is more liberal than Trump's), but the GOP is mostly zionists and the base is mostly anti Islam. Basically, Trump has more incentives than Bidem to support Israel as much as plausible.

[C r a b c a k e]

Also: every single election cycle we have to go through this -- "convincing" liberal voters to vote for the Democratic candidate, and not stay home or vote Green.

It's always the same.  Doesn't it get exhausting, folks?  Are we really going to do this song and dance for another year?

Yes? It's called electoral politics? You have these things called "elections" that occur periodically where you have to persuade people of your views?

Do you also get angry that you have to brush your teeth every night rather than clean them once ten years ago and it kept them clean for the rest of your life?

[Mine the Strait]

Also: every single election cycle we have to go through this -- "convincing" liberal voters to vote for the Democratic candidate, and not stay home or vote Green.

It's always the same.  Doesn't it get exhausting, folks?  Are we really going to do this song and dance for another year?

Oh, the horror of having to change people's minds and convince them to vote for your side in order to win an election! I'm so sorry the voters put you through that. Poor thing; you must be exhausted.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also: every single election cycle we have to go through this -- "convincing" liberal voters to vote for the Democratic candidate, and not stay home or vote Green.

It's always the same.  Doesn't it get exhausting, folks?  Are we really going to do this song and dance for another year?

Oh, the horror of having to change people's minds and convince them to vote for your side in order to win an election! I'm so sorry the voters put you through that. Poor thing; you must be exhausted.

Also I love how he cites 1968 as an example even though that was an election where the third party candidate clearly hurt the Republican nominee more

[GeneralMacArthur]

Also I love how he cites 1968 as an example even though that was an election where the third party candidate clearly hurt the Republican nominee more

The pertinent issue in 1968 was Eugene McCarthy voters staying home or protest voting.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Also: every single election cycle we have to go through this -- "convincing" liberal voters to vote for the Democratic candidate, and not stay home or vote Green.

It's always the same.  Doesn't it get exhausting, folks?  Are we really going to do this song and dance for another year?

Oh, the horror of having to change people's minds and convince them to vote for your side in order to win an election! I'm so sorry the voters put you through that. Poor thing; you must be exhausted.

Yes? It's called electoral politics? You have these things called "elections" that occur periodically where you have to persuade people of your views?

Do you also get angry that you have to brush your teeth every night rather than clean them once ten years ago and it kept them clean for the rest of your life?

It's not an argument that changes every election cycle though.  It's never a new argument.  It's literally the exact same conversation every cycle.  "I don't like my party's nominee, is it possible for me to find some way to vote for him/her without being responsible for him/her losing the election to someone I think is even worse?"  The answer is no.  The fundamentals of this answer do not change year by year.

[Democrats Hate Leftists More Than Predators]

this is a pppolitics threaf