Israel-Gaza war

[MyLifeIsYours]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

Hamas is not a credible source

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

JVP is well known to barely qualify for the Jewish moniker. Those same people have a lot of smoke for Republicans defending their policies because Clarence Thomas says Democrats are bad for black people.

Besides, it is literally the fault of Hamas that those civilians died. We'll set aside that they took hostages in the first place and that they stored those hostages right next to the local marketplace.

Literally all they had to do was see that the Israelis had the hostages and that there was zero chance they'd get them back, alive or even dead, and let them leave. Starting a firefight achieved literally nothing for Hamas but getting Palestinian civilians killed.

If Hamas didn't send swarms of hundreds of terrorists/militants in with rpgs and machine guns and anti-tank rounds then Israel wouldn't have deployed air strikes or artillery and so on. And of course some of those civilians were directly killed by Hamas, but we'll set that aside.

In comparison to Israeli air strikes on places with small numbers of Hamas militants where Hamas has no chance to return fire and any civilian casualties are at least technically the fault of the Israelis it is simply a fact that every dead or injured civilian here is 100% on Hamas. 200% even if you consider the factors I initially put aside.

People can hate on Israel all they want and some of it is justified but any person who puts even 1% of the tragedy here on Israel simply can't be taken seriously.

[Lief 🗽]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

Sorry the hostages are free and their jailers and guards are dead, I know this must be a hard day for you.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

What happens to all the people who participated in October 7th if Israel frees 5 digits of security prisoners in exchange for the hostages, many of whom were actually dead the whole time?

Will the international community demand the surrender of the participants or will they simply walk away successful?

If they'd done it on October 10th then Sinwar would have had a day of victory and then the next day he'd have had no leverage whatsoever over the IDF. They could have freely rearrested whoever they wanted in the West Bank and assassinated whoever they wanted in Gaza and taken as long as they wanted to subsequently remove Hamas from power. That's not my idea either, that's was the plan that was put forward by the one guy who predicted a security failure like October 7th, retired IDF Gen. Yitzhak Brick.

But political and military leadership didn't want to give Hamas a temporary victory early on for the only possible path to achieve both of their stated goals, so now they're failing to achieve either.

The problem with your argument is that killing something like 15000-20000 innocent civilian Palestinians is bad. And Israel being more effective in avoiding casualties is good. But that won't resolve the core issue. Nor would the pro-Hamas and anti-Semite groups limit their reaction if Israel cut the innocent casualties in half or in quarters.

It is one thing to criticize the lack of care for civilians from Kahanist ministers and officers in the government and the IDF. It is a totally different thing to say that a peaceful exchange of a few hundred hostages for thousands or tens of thousands of security prisoners which will doubtlessly include more Sinwars, as the Shalit deal did, with over 1000 dead Israelis including many people who were peace activists and children and rape victims would be an acceptable outcome.

The idea that freeing the small number of hostages and letting Hamas walk away would be an acceptable response is just delusional.

To be clear, I'm making two more or less entirely separate arguments.

Morally I think that the "core issue" here doesn't go back to October 7th because the Palestinians have been getting murdered or kidnapped and taken hostage long before the so-called "truce" broke down. And yes, abducting someone on their own internationally recognized territory and holding them under "administration detention" by the judgement of a foreign military court without charges is kidnapping and that person is a hostage. The "core issue" is that the Israelis have totally dominated the Palestinians for decades and the Palestinians who tried to put down their weapons for negotiations have been humiliated at every turn.

Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization but they could have never become so powerful if not empowered by Israel's attitude that they could simply beat down the Palestinians without taking them into consideration. As Nelson Mandela said,

A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a point, one can only fight fire with fire

The proto-Israeli terror groups embraced the use of violence and terror against their enemies right from the start and after decades they created their own mirror image in the form of Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations uniquely suited to the use of violence and terror. Over the past several decades despite past crimes they still could have easily concluded a permanent peace on favourable terms just as they did with Egypt and Jordan but they didn't because they thought they'd never have to. Israel will never be in a stronger position vis-a-vis the Palestinians than it was on October 6th, 2023.

Practically, even putting aside the morality of the conflict it's clear that there is no way that the IDF removes Hamas from Gaza at this point. We're eight months in and every urban stronghold of Hamas, including the ones in northern Gaza where the IDF declared victory months ago, is still under the effective control of Hamas. American intelligence estimates that the majority of their tunnels are intact, that a majority of their fighters are still alive and that they've even recruited thousands of new fighters over the course of the war. Putting aside the obvious problem that there isn't even an official theoretical alternative to Hamas, there also isn't any reason to think that Israel is willing to take the casualties necessary to impose such an alternative.

The stated official Israeli strategy at this point is to occupy strips of territory in Gaza kind of like the West Bank and to defeat Hamas through attrition over months or years but it says a lot that even Israeli leadership is implicitly conceding that they can't replace Hamas anytime soon. Of course, the "war of attrition" strategy can't work either because Hezbollah is escalating in the north and they've caught the IDF in a catch 22: they don't have the manpower to fight Hezbollah without sending the forces stationed in Gaza north, and Hezbollah won't agree to a negotiated solution until their forces are out of Gaza. But whether they choose to cut a deal with Hezbollah or to militarily force them across the Litani, either way they're going to have to withdraw their forces from Gaza.

Unless Sinwar decides to unilaterally surrender within the month they aren't getting displaced from Gaza regardless of what the IDF, the "international community" or any of us think. Netanyahu can recognize that reality and at least bring back the surviving hostages or he can extend the war indefinitely and Israel will pay an even higher price than it already has.

[Devils30]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

At least you just openly root for Hamas and communist dictators without even hiding it

[axiomsofdominion]

What happens to all the people who participated in October 7th if Israel frees 5 digits of security prisoners in exchange for the hostages, many of whom were actually dead the whole time?

Will the international community demand the surrender of the participants or will they simply walk away successful?

If they'd done it on October 10th then Sinwar would have had a day of victory and then the next day he'd have had no leverage whatsoever over the IDF. They could have freely rearrested whoever they wanted in the West Bank and assassinated whoever they wanted in Gaza and taken as long as they wanted to subsequently remove Hamas from power. That's not my idea either, that's was the plan that was put forward by the one guy who predicted a security failure like October 7th, retired IDF Gen. Yitzhak Brick.

But political and military leadership didn't want to give Hamas a temporary victory early on for the only possible path to achieve both of their stated goals, so now they're failing to achieve either.

The problem with your argument is that killing something like 15000-20000 innocent civilian Palestinians is bad. And Israel being more effective in avoiding casualties is good. But that won't resolve the core issue. Nor would the pro-Hamas and anti-Semite groups limit their reaction if Israel cut the innocent casualties in half or in quarters.

It is one thing to criticize the lack of care for civilians from Kahanist ministers and officers in the government and the IDF. It is a totally different thing to say that a peaceful exchange of a few hundred hostages for thousands or tens of thousands of security prisoners which will doubtlessly include more Sinwars, as the Shalit deal did, with over 1000 dead Israelis including many people who were peace activists and children and rape victims would be an acceptable outcome.

The idea that freeing the small number of hostages and letting Hamas walk away would be an acceptable response is just delusional.

To be clear, I'm making two more or less entirely separate arguments.

Morally I think that the "core issue" here doesn't go back to October 7th because the Palestinians have been getting murdered or kidnapped and taken hostage long before the so-called "truce" broke down. And yes, abducting someone on their own internationally recognized territory and holding them under "administration detention" by the judgement of a foreign military court without charges is kidnapping and that person is a hostage. The "core issue" is that the Israelis have totally dominated the Palestinians for decades and the Palestinians who tried to put down their weapons for negotiations have been humiliated at every turn.

Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization but they could have never become so powerful if not empowered by Israel's attitude that they could simply beat down the Palestinians without taking them into consideration. As Nelson Mandela said,

A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a point, one can only fight fire with fire

The proto-Israeli terror groups embraced the use of violence and terror against their enemies right from the start and after decades they created their own mirror image in the form of Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations uniquely suited to the use of violence and terror. Over the past several decades despite past crimes they still could have easily concluded a permanent peace on favourable terms just as they did with Egypt and Jordan but they didn't because they thought they'd never have to. Israel will never be in a stronger position vis-a-vis the Palestinians than it was on October 6th, 2023.

Practically, even putting aside the morality of the conflict it's clear that there is no way that the IDF removes Hamas from Gaza at this point. We're eight months in and every urban stronghold of Hamas, including the ones in northern Gaza where the IDF declared victory months ago, is still under the effective control of Hamas. American intelligence estimates that the majority of their tunnels are intact, that a majority of their fighters are still alive and that they've even recruited thousands of new fighters over the course of the war. Putting aside the obvious problem that there isn't even an official theoretical alternative to Hamas, there also isn't any reason to think that Israel is willing to take the casualties necessary to impose such an alternative.

The stated official Israeli strategy at this point is to occupy strips of territory in Gaza kind of like the West Bank and to defeat Hamas through attrition over months or years but it says a lot that even Israeli leadership is implicitly conceding that they can't replace Hamas anytime soon. Of course, the "war of attrition" strategy can't work either because Hezbollah is escalating in the north and they've caught the IDF in a catch 22: they don't have the manpower to fight Hezbollah without sending the forces stationed in Gaza north, and Hezbollah won't agree to a negotiated solution until their forces are out of Gaza. But whether they choose to cut a deal with Hezbollah or to military force them across the Litani, either way they're going to have to withdraw their forces from Gaza.

Unless Sinwar decides to unilaterally surrender within the month they aren't getting displaced from Gaza regardless of what the IDF, the "international community" or any of us think. Netanyahu can recognize that reality and at least bring back the surviving hostages or he can extend the war indefinitely and Israel will pay an even higher price than it already has.

Well all the way back in the 10s/20s/30s/40s it was in fact not the case that Israel held total power over the region the way they do now. And furthermore there was equal hatred on both sides and both sides had militias and did horrible things. I'm not going to go back and litigate that because it isn't a serious argument.

It is not in fact true that Israel could have simply gone into the West Bank and Gaza following a successful deal to return the hostages, and 1000+ people would still be dead regardless.

Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages. As soon as the war ends his government will collapse and he'll go to prison. If Hamas agreed to a reasonable deal then perhaps Bibi could be pressured to take it because his government would collapse regardless since some Likud members would defect if he rejected it. But certainly none of the deals Hamas has proposed so far would meet that qualification.

If Hamas leaders agreed to go into exile and the PA absorbed Hamas in combination with PIJ and Fatah and other groups under a united technocratic Palestinian administration then sure Bibi wouldn't be able to do anything. But Hamas has no interest in a deal because they believe they can simply keep throwing their civilians into the meat grinder until they believe, *incorrectly*, that Israel would be forced to give in to whatever sh**t deal they propose.

If Hamas had engaged in a terrorist action against purely military installations then perhaps they'd have some ground to stand on but they literally slaughtered, tortured, in some cases raped, and then kidnapped 100s of civilian and foreign national women and children. This caused basically nobody in Israel to be willing to accept any deal Hamas would be willing to propose.

Similarly many Israelis have the justified belief that they are getting attacked for the large number of civilians deaths during the hostage rescue when in fact those deaths are purely on Hamas. If Hamas didn't flood the market area with hundreds of heavily armed militants to try and kill as many Jews as possible, even knowing they had no chance to win and no chance to prevent the rescue, none of those civilians would have died. Hamas is actively making it harder to end the war, intentionally, because they think that if they get enough Palestinians killed they'll "win".

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

Sorry the hostages are free and their jailers and guards are dead, I know this must be a hard day for you.

Every single civilian who died during the hostage rescue is purely the consequence of Hamas staging a firefight they couldn't possibly win when the hostages were already as good as free. Any person who says otherwise is nothing but a pro-terrorist anti-semite.

I'd suggest not responding to their terrorist propaganda and delusional drivel. Getting ready to add several names to my block list, personally.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Well all the way back in the 10s/20s/30s/40s it was in fact not the case that Israel held total power over the region the way they do now. And furthermore there was equal hatred on both sides and both sides had militias and did horrible things. I'm not going to go back and litigate that because it isn't a serious argument.

Right, and my argument is that little has changed besides Israel's relative strength. Both sides had militias that did horrible things but whether any given militia's crimes make concessions to them "unacceptable" solely depends on which side they fought for.

It is not in fact true that Israel could have simply gone into the West Bank and Gaza following a successful deal to return the hostages, and 1000+ people would still be dead regardless.

Why not? Hamas wasn't demanding a "permanent ceasefire" on October 10th and international opinion largely had yet to turn against Israel by that point, there would have been nothing stopping them.

Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages. As soon as the war ends his government will collapse and he'll go to prison. If Hamas agreed to a reasonable deal then perhaps Bibi could be pressured to take it because his government would collapse regardless since some Likud members would defect if he rejected it. But certainly none of the deals Hamas has proposed so far would meet that qualification.

If Hamas leaders agreed to go into exile and the PA absorbed Hamas in combination with PIJ and Fatah and other groups under a united technocratic Palestinian administration then sure Bibi wouldn't be able to do anything. But Hamas has no interest in a deal because they believe they can simply keep throwing their civilians into the meat grinder until they believe, *incorrectly*, that Israel would be forced to give in to whatever sh**t deal they propose.

Hamas doesn't think the IDF can defeat them or remove them from Gaza so obviously they aren't going to agree to a deal that forcibly removes them from Gaza. If the IDF were actually winning the war and actually replacing Hamas's governance instead of aimlessly blowing up civilians then perhaps Hamas would actually be under pressure to shift their conditions.

If Hamas had engaged in a terrorist action against purely military installations then perhaps they'd have some ground to stand on but they literally slaughtered, tortured, in some cases raped, and then kidnapped 100s of civilian and foreign national women and children. This caused basically nobody in Israel to be willing to accept any deal Hamas would be willing to propose.

Israel was founded by terrorists who literally slaughtered, tortured and in some cases raped and then kidnapped at least thousands of civilians, yet Arabs were expected to accept the deals they proposed. From long before October 7th to this very day Palestinian civilians are kidnapped from their own territory and murdered or raped in Israeli prisons and yet Palestinians are expected to accept deals they propose.

Why do the crimes of Hamas preclude negotiation with them when that standard isn't applied to Israelis who commit the exact same crimes? Ben Gvir supported literally burning a Palestinian baby to death (again, long before October 7th) and they didn't just "negotiate" with him, they made him a minister in the government and gave him control over the police!

Similarly many Israelis have the justified belief that they are getting attacked for the large number of civilians deaths during the hostage rescue when in fact those deaths are purely on Hamas. If Hamas didn't flood the market area with hundreds of heavily armed militants to try and kill as many Jews as possible, even knowing they had no chance to win and no chance to prevent the rescue, none of those civilians would have died. Hamas is actively making it harder to end the war, intentionally, because they think that if they get enough Palestinians killed they'll "win".

Israelis have a galactic victim complex. Putin received enormous international criticism for his reaction to Chechen terrorist attacks. For some reason when Putin "solves" a hostage situation by killing all the hostages we can recognize that his "solution" bears responsibility for the outcome without absolving the Chechen terrorists but when the Israelis do the same we have to pretend every subsequent death is on Hamas no matter how stupid, counterproductive and murderous their strategy is.

[DaleCooper]

As someone who admittedly doesn't know that much about all the moving pieces here, it seems to me that the only reasonable option here is to basically have a North & South Korea style ceasefire where there's just a constant stand-off between the two. The problem is that conservative Israelis won't go along with removing all their settlers from the Palestinian territories. There's also the problem that a sizable portion of the "Free Palestine" movement does consist of Islamist groups and terrorist groups that want Israel gone completely (Don't shoot the messenger, it's true and you know it!) so that makes negotiation even more difficult. The whole thing is a mess that very few people seem to even want to solve.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Well, so does this mean there is Palestinian civilian complicity in the crimes of Hamas?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/how-israels-daring-hostage-rescue-mission-unfolded-a-surgical-operation

"Hagari said Hamas has been holding hostages inside civilian buildings, and Israeli intelligence was able to pinpoint two of these buildings in Nuseirat where families were staying with armed guards inside."

[Meclazine for Israel]

This almost made me throw up. JFC.

https://twitter.com/equalityAlec/status/1798815756332720382?t=IPJzi2hGSDIY9YcQ_v...

It’s from an UNWRA report. Sorry if I believe they might tell a lie or 10.

Because, famously, the Israelis have never lied before, right?

They're totally paragons of truth and honesty, right?

My experience with Jewish people is that they are the nicest, most intelligent people on the planet. I have never had a bad experience in business with Jewish folk. In fact, I owe my business success to the trust and friendship of Jewish people.

Thanks to a career in Geology, have met a lot of people from 6 different continents, and one thing is for certain, I was impressed by their long term qualities of resourcefulness, intelligence, mercantile and friendship.

It comes as no surprise they are very successful.

Placing them next to an Islamic death cult in Hamas? Well, that is another issue.

I don't view people I do business with through an ethnicity lens. Maybe you do. What are your experiences in business with Arab folk? I had a local Saudi gentleman that acted as my notary when I ran for office a couple years ago. Nice guy, had a nice conversation, and he runs a solid business in town. That does not mean I endorse the actions of Mohamed bin Salman. In fact, it's a logical fallacy on your part to act like Jews = Israel and Israel = Jews. There are Jews that are not Israelis and there are Israelis that are not Jews. The actions of the Government of Israel are not representative of Jews worldwide.

It's not complicated.

Have enjoyed success after placing trust in my relationships with Jewish people.

Blessed. What a great day for Israel.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

[axiomsofdominion]

Well, so does this mean there is Palestinian civilian complicity in the crimes of Hamas?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/how-israels-daring-hostage-rescue-mission-unfolded-a-surgical-operation

"Hagari said Hamas has been holding hostages inside civilian buildings, and Israeli intelligence was able to pinpoint two of these buildings in Nuseirat where families were staying with armed guards inside."

Some percentage, possibly a majority, of Gazans support the actions of Hamas. But there's a very large minority who oppose such actions. Regardless Israel is still required to minimize civilian casualties if those civilians are not currently involved in action against Israeli forces. The issue with this particular event is that these casualties were *not* avoidable because Hamas launched an extensive attack on hostage rescuers withing a highly populated area knowing full well those civilians would die, but they were hoping for some PR against Israel.

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

Sure and the Association of German National Jews was also a Jewish organization. That's a debate of technicalities. JVP has become more extreme over time and it has become significantly less Jewish. The original membership argualy qualified them as a Jewish organization but it is no longer the case. JVP has been subsumed by anti-semitic groups and actions. They are the "token black person" of Jewish groups. It is like calling the Federalist Society an "African American group" because of Clarence Thomas. The vast majority of their membership is no longer Jewish. It also isn't Palestinian either. It's random anti-semites.

I was a big Bernie supporter, I pitched 2020 campaign leadership on why Rashida Tlaib being Bernie's VP was a potentially historic moment(boy am I glad that didn't happen considering), and I was a strong Corbyn defender, which was hard given the JVP interaction there.

The fact of the matter is that using people JVP as their anti-semitism shield just makes them look more anti-semitic and unserious. At least use Standing Together or something.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

Sure and the Association of German National Jews was also a Jewish organization. That's a debate of technicalities. JVP has become more extreme over time and it has become significantly less Jewish. The original membership argualy qualified them as a Jewish organization but it is no longer the case. JVP has been subsumed by anti-semitic groups and actions. They are the "token black person" of Jewish groups. It is like calling the Federalist Society an "African American group" because of Clarence Thomas.

Correct, it was a Jewish organization. I don't understand what you mean by a technicality. They had awful views but they were still Jewish. You can't just un-Jew a person because they disagree with you. Ray has tried to do this many times before, like when he said all the Jewish members of Congress who voted against Tlaib's censure weren't really Jewish. This is a common pattern with him.

And the Federalist Society didn't start a Black organization so that's a bizarre comparison.

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

Sure and the Association of German National Jews was also a Jewish organization. That's a debate of technicalities. JVP has become more extreme over time and it has become significantly less Jewish. The original membership argualy qualified them as a Jewish organization but it is no longer the case. JVP has been subsumed by anti-semitic groups and actions. They are the "token black person" of Jewish groups. It is like calling the Federalist Society an "African American group" because of Clarence Thomas.

Correct, it was a Jewish organization. I don't understand what you mean by a technicality. They had awful views but they were still Jewish. You can't just un-Jew a person because they disagree with you. Ray has tried to do this many times before, like when he said all the Jewish members of Congress who voted against Tlaib's censure weren't really Jewish. This is a common pattern with him.

And the Federalist Society didn't start a Black organization so that's a bizarre comparison.

I made a couple relevant edits to my previous post.

Regarding your specific comment here, I disagree with him about the members of Congress and the censure vote.

JVP has members who are Jewish. A small fraction. But they don't represent Jewishness or Jewish opinion in any meaningful way. They are absolutely being used as a token by anti-semites, as well as just dumb uninformed people. They are extremists. So when someone names them to defend their anti-semitism that should be called out.

Calling themselves Jewish Voice For Peace implies something about the organization which is not accurate. It would be one thing if it was a fully Jewish organization supported by fundraising from Jews. But it is just an extremist group that has a small number of Jewish members.

JVP is in current times heavily associated with SJP and once the head of SJP, who is allowed to make leadership decisions in JVP was caught tweeting "as a Jew" because he forgot to log into the JVP account. JVP is full of this nonsense. The majority of chapters were not founded by Jews in addition, even if the national organization 30 years ago was.

[MyLifeIsYours]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

At least you just openly root for Hamas and communist dictators without even hiding it

Rooting for Hamas? I just want this ongoing genocide in Gaza to end. Nothing that I've written is supportive of anyone except the civilians of Gaza who are losing their lives through the bombardment of the Israel government.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

Sure and the Association of German National Jews was also a Jewish organization. That's a debate of technicalities. JVP has become more extreme over time and it has become significantly less Jewish. The original membership argualy qualified them as a Jewish organization but it is no longer the case. JVP has been subsumed by anti-semitic groups and actions. They are the "token black person" of Jewish groups. It is like calling the Federalist Society an "African American group" because of Clarence Thomas.

Correct, it was a Jewish organization. I don't understand what you mean by a technicality. They had awful views but they were still Jewish. You can't just un-Jew a person because they disagree with you. Ray has tried to do this many times before, like when he said all the Jewish members of Congress who voted against Tlaib's censure weren't really Jewish. This is a common pattern with him.

And the Federalist Society didn't start a Black organization so that's a bizarre comparison.

I made a couple relevant edits to my previous post.

Regarding your specific comment here, I disagree with him about the members of Congress and the censure vote.

JVP has members who are Jewish. A small fraction. But they don't represent Jewishness or Jewish opinion in any meaningful way. They are absolutely being used as a token by anti-semites, as well as just dumb uninformed people. They are extremists. So when someone names them to defend their anti-semitism that should be called out.

Calling themselves Jewish Voice For Peace implies something about the organization which is not accurate. It would be one thing if it was a fully Jewish organization supported by fundraising from Jews. But it is just an extremist group that has a small number of Jewish members.

JVP is in current times heavily associated with SJP and once the head of SJP, who is allowed to make leadership decisions in JVP was caught tweeting "as a Jew" because he forgot to log into the JVP account. JVP is full of this nonsense. The majority of chapters were not founded by Jews in addition, even if the national organization 30 years ago was.

How do you know the majority of chapters weren't founded by Jews? Do you have a link to that? I'm not saying I don't believe you but that seems like something that would be hard to confirm.

Anyways, I do not support them. I'm just objecting to Ray's extremist language, like I said it's a pattern with him. IfNotNow is much better.

[wnwnwn]

JVP has a side, that's OK, it´s politics, but people should stop citing them to feel better about themselves.

What the Israel side is saying implies that all or most who died in the operative were armed and opposing the rescue. I'm not sure what the antizionists are saying on the details, I think they want to imply that the IDF killed random civilians. Is there any photos of what actually happened?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Al Jazeera, the benchmark for quality journalism on the conflict are saying 210 dead and 400 wounded in the attack to rescue 4 Israeli's.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/6/9/israels-war-on-gaza-live-nightmare-as-hospital-copes-with-nuseirat-dead

Not withstanding their fine journalistic integrity, they don't appear very happy with the latest development of the 4 rescued hostages.

A little on the bitter side. Sara is trying to report that 2 people were moved on from a protest against the Israeli government in Tel Aviv. Not exactly world news.

Al Jazeera - Genocide in Gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbxjhxnQGh4

Just searching TRT World Now, the Turkish News broadcaster. They don't appear to have any reports on the 4 Israeli hostages at this moment in time.

[axiomsofdominion]

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1799494704784089561

“Jewish” voice for “peace” furious that four hostages were freed.

210 innocent Palestinians died through the reckless actions of the Israel government. They are consistent in condemning the violent Zionist regime that is whipping out the people of Gaza.

They openly celebrated the 10/7 genocide. They are neither Jewish nor for peace.

You are not the arbiter of who is and is not Jewish. While JVP is too left wing for me their chairwoman is Jewish and they have a good number of Jewish members.

The ADL does basically nothing to fight defamation but I've never seen you advocate for a name change there.

Republicans are the true party of black people because Clarence Thomas says they are. How dare you contradict Clarence.

Regardless the ADL is trash and should change their name. Happy?

JVP is considered illegitimate even among many left wing pro-Palestine Jews who should be on their side.

"The Association of German National Jews was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of the Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler."

Basically JVP from the Nazi era.

It may surprise you to learn that JVP members frequently and consistently attack Gazans who *actually support peace* as traitors to Palestine as well, so on that grounds it is fair for other people to level mirrored allegations at them.

There's many legitimate cases where Israel killed civilians with virtually no justification. If JVP was actually serious they'd spend their time on that. Instead of one of the few cases where the dead are purely the responsibility of Hamas.

There's a difference between saying "the solid majority of Jewish people don't support this organization" and "this isn't a Jewish organization at all." This is basically the equivalent of saying "all Black Republicans and any Black Republican organizations aren't really Black."

Sure and the Association of German National Jews was also a Jewish organization. That's a debate of technicalities. JVP has become more extreme over time and it has become significantly less Jewish. The original membership argualy qualified them as a Jewish organization but it is no longer the case. JVP has been subsumed by anti-semitic groups and actions. They are the "token black person" of Jewish groups. It is like calling the Federalist Society an "African American group" because of Clarence Thomas.

Correct, it was a Jewish organization. I don't understand what you mean by a technicality. They had awful views but they were still Jewish. You can't just un-Jew a person because they disagree with you. Ray has tried to do this many times before, like when he said all the Jewish members of Congress who voted against Tlaib's censure weren't really Jewish. This is a common pattern with him.

And the Federalist Society didn't start a Black organization so that's a bizarre comparison.

I made a couple relevant edits to my previous post.

Regarding your specific comment here, I disagree with him about the members of Congress and the censure vote.

JVP has members who are Jewish. A small fraction. But they don't represent Jewishness or Jewish opinion in any meaningful way. They are absolutely being used as a token by anti-semites, as well as just dumb uninformed people. They are extremists. So when someone names them to defend their anti-semitism that should be called out.

Calling themselves Jewish Voice For Peace implies something about the organization which is not accurate. It would be one thing if it was a fully Jewish organization supported by fundraising from Jews. But it is just an extremist group that has a small number of Jewish members.

JVP is in current times heavily associated with SJP and once the head of SJP, who is allowed to make leadership decisions in JVP was caught tweeting "as a Jew" because he forgot to log into the JVP account. JVP is full of this nonsense. The majority of chapters were not founded by Jews in addition, even if the national organization 30 years ago was.

How do you know the majority of chapters weren't founded by Jews? Do you have a link to that? I'm not saying I don't believe you but that seems like something that would be hard to confirm.

Anyways, I do not support them. I'm just objecting to Ray's extremist language, like I said it's a pattern with him. IfNotNow is much better.

IfNotNow has been considered less extremist than JVP, though that's changed recently as the groups have continuously teamed up and IfNotNow issued their infamous on the Oct 7 attacks: "We cannot and will not say today’s actions by Palestinian militants are unprovoked."

Additionally in recent times IFN declared that: "AIPAC is the antisemitic far right...They are not a Jewish org, nor claim to be one."

So a little irony in the context of our discussion.