Israel-Gaza war

[pppolitics]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

OK. Court systems and ethical systems should still care about this, though.

Israel clearly doesn't care about international laws.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Hope Israel cuts off all diplomatic relations with Brazil and sends the personnel home on a slow boat. And this is the moderate response to a country led by a Holocaust denier.

Only one country has a massive death toll on its hands, and it isn't Brazil. If any country should be roundly condemned internationally and reigned in, again, it isn't Brazil.

10/7 was the clearest casus belli for total war since Pearl Harbor, and there is no force on Earth that could force Israel to coexist with the genocidal Hamas rape gang again.

Also, Lula is still a Holocaust denier.

[pppolitics]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

He asked if you think it’s justified

If Israel killed my parents, my siblings, my relatives, and my friends and destroyed my house, my school/university, and my work, I would be out for blood.

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Hope Israel cuts off all diplomatic relations with Brazil and sends the personnel home on a slow boat. And this is the moderate response to a country led by a Holocaust denier.

Only one country has a massive death toll on its hands, and it isn't Brazil. If any country should be roundly condemned internationally and reigned in, again, it isn't Brazil.

I think this is a really counterproductive way to judge foreign policy from any ideological perspective.

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

OK. Court systems and ethical systems should still care about this, though.

Israel clearly doesn't care about international laws.

Sure they do. If they didn't, they wouldn't have an enormous bureaucracy dedicated to calling individual Gazans and telling them to get out of the way.

But also, my statement is about should. It is prescriptive, not descriptive. Court systems and ethical systems shouldn't care about whether people feel like they have nothing to lose -- but obviously some ethical systems, like the one you advocate for in this thread, seem to care about this. If international law were ever written or interpreted in a way that condemned the Israeli campaign, then it is international law which should be changed. I don't think it would ever be written that way -- after all, international law is written for state actors -- but I can imagine it getting unfairly interpreted that way, as I think I mentioned in the thread about the South Africa suit. In that case, so much the worse for international law.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Hope Israel cuts off all diplomatic relations with Brazil and sends the personnel home on a slow boat. And this is the moderate response to a country led by a Holocaust denier.

Only one country has a massive death toll on its hands, and it isn't Brazil. If any country should be roundly condemned internationally and reigned in, again, it isn't Brazil.

I think this is a really counterproductive way to judge foreign policy from any ideological perspective.

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

OK. Court systems and ethical systems should still care about this, though.

Israel clearly doesn't care about international laws.

Sure they do. If they didn't, they wouldn't have an enormous bureaucracy dedicated to calling individual Gazans and telling them to get out of the way.

But also, my statement is about should. It is prescriptive, not descriptive. Court systems and ethical systems shouldn't care about whether people feel like they have nothing to lose -- but obviously some ethical systems, like the one you advocate for in this thread, seem to care about this. If international law were ever written or interpreted in a way that condemned the Israeli campaign, then it is international law which should be changed. I don't think it would ever be written that way -- after all, international law is written for state actors -- but I can imagine it getting unfairly interpreted that way, as I think I mentioned in the thread about the South Africa suit. In that case, so much the worse for international law.

That's such an easy lie to catch.

Phone services have been shut off in Gaza.

[Devils30]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

He asked if you think it’s justified

If Israel killed my parents, my siblings, my relatives, and my friends and destroyed my house, my school/university, and my work, I would be out for blood.

Doesn't seem to take even that much for most of the anti-Israel crowd unfortunately.

[Silent Hunter]

https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/20/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-the-uk-political-divide/

British political opinion on this.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Some Palestinians now appear to be espousing Vosem thought:

https://www.twitter.com/joetruzman/status/1760071819355464182

Protests against Hamas appear to be spreading to the northern Gaza Strip. "O Sinwar O Haniyeh. The people are the victims. Down with Hamas."

Interesting.

[omar04]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

Netanyahu has a history of minimizing the evils of Nazi Germany in order to find a way to call the Palestinians worse in comparison.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

Netanyahu has a history of minimizing the evils of Nazi Germany in order to find a way to call the Palestinians worse in comparison.

Netanyahu definitely isn't a trustworthy man when it comes to Holocaust history...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

Netanyahu has a history of minimizing the evils of Nazi Germany in order to find a way to call the Palestinians worse in comparison.

Yeah, the Holocaust was mainly a German idea. The one non German that may have influenced Hitler is Henry Ford.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

Netanyahu has a history of minimizing the evils of Nazi Germany in order to find a way to call the Palestinians worse in comparison.

Netanyahu definitely isn't a trustworthy man when it comes to Holocaust history...

Well, some Holocaust survivors were not treated very well when they first arrived after the war. Herzl considered Jews who weren't ethnonationalists to be weak, and this was expressed towards those who moved there.

[Meclazine for Israel]

From Aaron Cohen:

1. Israel is tired of being told what the rules of engagement are;

2. The only reason Ismail's Haniyas head is still attached is because baby Kvir Bibas may still be alive;

3. No one will ever tell Israel how to self-determine.

If those hostages are dead, or Hamas have made ISIS like videos of their execution and/or torture, the Israeli's will re-assess their short term goals.

[afleitch]

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/98/international-development-committee/news/199979/committee-members-report-back-on-conditions-in-gaza/

UK Government International Development Committee Report.

“Nothing that has been reported braces you for the true scale of the horror in Gaza. We’re simply not getting accurate information about the levels of destruction and brutality.

“Listening to seasoned humanitarians tell us that what they’ve witnessed in Gaza makes it the worse disaster they've ever seen really brought home the savagery befalling civilians. Aid workers repeatedly questioned why international law wasn’t being followed or upheld in relation to civilians, humanitarians and medics."

[Open Source Intelligence]

Pentagon says the Houthis are now using an unmanned underwater submarine drone. Blaming Iran for them having it and says Iran will be held responsible for anything that happens.

[CumbrianLefty]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Netanyahu has previously claimed that the then Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini persuaded Hitler to exterminate the Jews: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-netanyahu-hitler/israels-netanyahu-stirs-trouble-by-linking-late-muslim-leader-to-holocaust-idUSKCN0SF15120151021/

A conspiracy theory which is, quite arguably, AS as well as Islamophobic.

Bibi's Bigotry Bingo!

[Vosem]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

[Pres Mike]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

Also important to add that when the PLO was formed in 1964, Haj Amin al-Husseini was immediately discredited and disowned. He had lost almost all power in Palestinian circles after 1948. Today, very few Palestinians know who he is. He isn't taught about in Palestinian schools.

[Devils30]

Israel/Gaza is good illustration of the impending problems for both parties re foreign policy. For Dems, it's the outright support of terrorist groups and desire to see Israel eliminated (no, the squad does not support a 2 state solution) among their activists. For the GOP, it's the desire to let Putin take Ukraine and later Latvia, Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe. One of these sides is likely to have a major f** up that will discredit themselves.

[Vosem]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

Also important to add that when the PLO was formed in 1964, Haj Amin al-Husseini was immediately discredited and disowned. He had lost almost all power in Palestinian circles after 1948. Today, very few Palestinians know who he is. He isn't taught about in Palestinian schools.

Sure -- I think the fact of widespread Axis sympathy in Britain's Arab colonies (including the anti-British revolt in 1936-1939, and including the rise and defeat of an Axis-sympathetic government in Iraq) is relevant in discussions of the 1940s inasmuch as it is one of the fundamental facts explaining why the Zionist militias were permitted to become as strong as they became, and why the organization of native militias was generally prohibited.

(Yes, I know that sympathy for the Axis was much more limited in North Africa, where fascist occupation was a real thing that people lived through, than elsewhere in the Arab world. Anti-colonial sympathy for the Axis typically only persisted in places where the Axis was a faraway abstraction, not an actual presence.)

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Some Palestinians now appear to be espousing Vosem thought:

https://www.twitter.com/joetruzman/status/1760071819355464182

Protests against Hamas appear to be spreading to the northern Gaza Strip. "O Sinwar O Haniyeh. The people are the victims. Down with Hamas."

Interesting.

People were protesting Hamas before 10/7 as well.

[Pres Mike]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

Also important to add that when the PLO was formed in 1964, Haj Amin al-Husseini was immediately discredited and disowned. He had lost almost all power in Palestinian circles after 1948. Today, very few Palestinians know who he is. He isn't taught about in Palestinian schools.

Sure -- I think the fact of widespread Axis sympathy in Britain's Arab colonies (including the anti-British revolt in 1936-1939, and including the rise and defeat of an Axis-sympathetic government in Iraq) is relevant in discussions of the 1940s inasmuch as it is one of the fundamental facts explaining why the Zionist militias were permitted to become as strong as they became, and why the organization of native militias was generally prohibited.

(Yes, I know that sympathy for the Axis was much more limited in North Africa, where fascist occupation was a real thing that people lived through, than elsewhere in the Arab world. Anti-colonial sympathy for the Axis typically only persisted in places where the Axis was a faraway abstraction, not an actual presence.)

Hitler also called Arabs monkeys, fit for slavery. Him entertaining al-Husseni was a desperate war measure

[Vosem]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

Also important to add that when the PLO was formed in 1964, Haj Amin al-Husseini was immediately discredited and disowned. He had lost almost all power in Palestinian circles after 1948. Today, very few Palestinians know who he is. He isn't taught about in Palestinian schools.

Sure -- I think the fact of widespread Axis sympathy in Britain's Arab colonies (including the anti-British revolt in 1936-1939, and including the rise and defeat of an Axis-sympathetic government in Iraq) is relevant in discussions of the 1940s inasmuch as it is one of the fundamental facts explaining why the Zionist militias were permitted to become as strong as they became, and why the organization of native militias was generally prohibited.

(Yes, I know that sympathy for the Axis was much more limited in North Africa, where fascist occupation was a real thing that people lived through, than elsewhere in the Arab world. Anti-colonial sympathy for the Axis typically only persisted in places where the Axis was a faraway abstraction, not an actual presence.)

Hitler also called Arabs monkeys, fit for slavery. Him entertaining al-Husseni was a desperate war measure

Yes. In general many anti-colonial movements believed they were pro-Axis, but those that got a chance to collaborate with the Axis tended to regret it.

[Pres Mike]

Haj Amin al-Husseini did not persuade Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a position which Hitler had advocated decades before he ever met al-Husseini, but he certainly lobbied for it. This is questionably relevant to the modern day (also, al-Husseini wasn't an elected official), except insofar as it goes to show that local anti-Zionism was rooted in deranged violence and hatred from the very beginning, which is broadly accepted anyway.

Also important to add that when the PLO was formed in 1964, Haj Amin al-Husseini was immediately discredited and disowned. He had lost almost all power in Palestinian circles after 1948. Today, very few Palestinians know who he is. He isn't taught about in Palestinian schools.

Sure -- I think the fact of widespread Axis sympathy in Britain's Arab colonies (including the anti-British revolt in 1936-1939, and including the rise and defeat of an Axis-sympathetic government in Iraq) is relevant in discussions of the 1940s inasmuch as it is one of the fundamental facts explaining why the Zionist militias were permitted to become as strong as they became, and why the organization of native militias was generally prohibited.

(Yes, I know that sympathy for the Axis was much more limited in North Africa, where fascist occupation was a real thing that people lived through, than elsewhere in the Arab world. Anti-colonial sympathy for the Axis typically only persisted in places where the Axis was a faraway abstraction, not an actual presence.)

Hitler also called Arabs monkeys, fit for slavery. Him entertaining al-Husseni was a desperate war measure

Yes. In general many anti-colonial movements believed they were pro-Axis, but those that got a chance to collaborate with the Axis tended to regret it.

On that, we agree