Israel-Gaza war

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Disgusting but obviously unsurprising.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Disgusting but obviously unsurprising.

It seems quite a few Brazilians are happy that what's going on in Gaza is being condemned. Evangelicals not so much, but they're still a minority in the country.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...

Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Hope Israel cuts off all diplomatic relations with Brazil and sends the personnel home on a slow boat. And this is the moderate response to a country led by a Holocaust denier.

[pppolitics]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

[pppolitics]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists, Israel has only itself to blame.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists, Israel has only itself to blame.

This is children’s cartoon bad guy logic

[rc18]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists[...]

...Like it did after Israel left it alone for two decades?

[pppolitics]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists, Israel has only itself to blame.

This is children’s cartoon bad guy logic

As I said before:

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

[pppolitics]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists[...]

...Like it did after Israel left it alone for two decades?

Netanyahu's government has been propping up Hamas for years to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state.

[Dereich]

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists, Israel has only itself to blame.

This is children’s cartoon bad guy logic

He's clearly right though? Assuming that was "the plan" the war would end with Gaza devastated and  with nobody responsible for rebuilding it. It is extremely reasonable to think that a Hamas-like organisation or even Hamas itself would spring back up with the funding and the dedication to fill the void. Israel cannot take no responsibility for what happens in Gaza post-war if it expects this kind of group to stay out of power.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Two men captured on CCTV on Oct 7 aiding in the murder and kidnap of Israeli's.

Faisal Ali Musallam Al Naami

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3k3gg0LG1R/

Turns out Faisal is a UN Aid Worker.

UNRWA should be replaced by others from the myriad of aid agencies.

[Vosem]

The Brazilian thing is quite strange, and probably a case of negative polarization, in the sense that the Brazilian right is just so ludicrously pro-Israel (and, more specifically, so ludicrously pro-Likud) that one would expect some degree of backlash on the left as a matter of course. Under Bolsonaro, Brazil would deliberately time actions like state visits in ways calculated to help Netanyahu in elections, and explicitly campaigned on a platform putting support for Brazil and Israel on the same tier. (Unironically, if Bolsonaro were still in office, my guess is that he would've made some effort to put Brazilian boots on the ground, although he was never very good at dealing with the Brazilian bureaucracy and I doubt it would have actually happened.)

According to polls, 66% of Brazilians supported the Israeli campaign in Gaza even after bombing had already been ongoing for over a month. I think these are conditions which might radicalize even fairly 'normal' left forces (and note that Lula's background is in quite radical left forces for a Western democracy).

What is Israel's plan after the current campaign ends?

No home, no work, no education, no health care makes for a perfect breeding ground for terrorists.

Or is the immediate plan still to expel Palestinians from Gaza?

The plan seems to be to permanently occupy a buffer zone near the border, massively fortified as a sort of DMZ to prevent any further incursions with extreme prejudice. The remaining 90% or so of Gaza will likely be rebuilt by the world at large, with little involvement from Israel, but the effectiveness of that will heavily depend on what Egypt does about their border.

If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists, Israel has only itself to blame.

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

[pppolitics]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

[Vosem]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

[Open Source Intelligence]

According to polls, 66% of Brazilians supported the Israeli campaign in Gaza even after bombing had already been ongoing for over a month.

This is a broader comment and not just one about you because it's being made in the Russia-Ukraine thread as well, but I'm sick and f#ck*ng tired of people trying to dictate "clearly this is the correct action to take because of the positive response in this approval poll".

You're an adult, make your argument you believe in, don't slink off like a castrated coward and find others to do the hard work for you, especially in matters where it's completely irrelevant. There's a great episode of Seth MacFarlane's Orville where they show how stupid it is to have society be ran by polling approval.

[pppolitics]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

According to polls, 66% of Brazilians supported the Israeli campaign in Gaza even after bombing had already been ongoing for over a month.

This is a broader comment and not just one about you because it's being made in the Russia-Ukraine thread as well, but I'm sick and f#ck*ng tired of people trying to dictate "clearly this is the correct action to take because of the positive response in this approval poll".

You're an adult, make your argument you believe in, don't slink off like a castrated coward and find others to do the hard work for you, especially in matters where it's completely irrelevant. There's a great episode of Seth MacFarlane's Orville where they show how stupid it is to have society be ran by polling approval.

To be fair to Vosem, he's analyzing Lula's position here, not defending his own.

[Open Source Intelligence]

According to polls, 66% of Brazilians supported the Israeli campaign in Gaza even after bombing had already been ongoing for over a month.

This is a broader comment and not just one about you because it's being made in the Russia-Ukraine thread as well, but I'm sick and f#ck*ng tired of people trying to dictate "clearly this is the correct action to take because of the positive response in this approval poll".

You're an adult, make your argument you believe in, don't slink off like a castrated coward and find others to do the hard work for you, especially in matters where it's completely irrelevant. There's a great episode of Seth MacFarlane's Orville where they show how stupid it is to have society be ran by polling approval.

To be fair to Vosem, he's analyzing Lula's position here, but defending his own.

Should we have every state in the world have their opinion of the Israel-Gaza conflict be based on public polling? Should the state of Jordan have their foreign relations with Israel be dictated by public polling of the opinion of Jordanians? That is the mark of cowards for leaders that don't want to own their own decisions.

[Silent Hunter]

Should we have every state in the world have their opinion of the Israel-Gaza conflict be based on public polling? Should the state of Jordan have their foreign relations with Israel be dictated by public polling of the opinion of Jordanians?

No, although acting against the wishes of your people in foreign affairs is frequently the cause of a government's downfall.

[Open Source Intelligence]

Should we have every state in the world have their opinion of the Israel-Gaza conflict be based on public polling? Should the state of Jordan have their foreign relations with Israel be dictated by public polling of the opinion of Jordanians?

No, although acting against the wishes of your people in foreign affairs is frequently the cause of a government's downfall.

...and we then get the Muslim Brotherhood elected to run Egypt.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

He asked if you think it’s justified

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1759918321720312055?t=JnW3C5n09zyPCRWt...
Lula isn't backing down. I agree, he shouldn't retract it. Was it hyperbolic? Sure. Pot meet kettle, Israel.

Hope Israel cuts off all diplomatic relations with Brazil and sends the personnel home on a slow boat. And this is the moderate response to a country led by a Holocaust denier.

Only one country has a massive death toll on its hands, and it isn't Brazil. If any country should be roundly condemned internationally and reigned in, again, it isn't Brazil.

[Vosem]

According to polls, 66% of Brazilians supported the Israeli campaign in Gaza even after bombing had already been ongoing for over a month.

This is a broader comment and not just one about you because it's being made in the Russia-Ukraine thread as well, but I'm sick and f#ck*ng tired of people trying to dictate "clearly this is the correct action to take because of the positive response in this approval poll".

You're an adult, make your argument you believe in, don't slink off like a castrated coward and find others to do the hard work for you, especially in matters where it's completely irrelevant. There's a great episode of Seth MacFarlane's Orville where they show how stupid it is to have society be ran by polling approval.

To be fair to Vosem, he's analyzing Lula's position here, but defending his own.

Should we have every state in the world have their opinion of the Israel-Gaza conflict be based on public polling? Should the state of Jordan have their foreign relations with Israel be dictated by public polling of the opinion of Jordanians? That is the mark of cowards for leaders that don't want to own their own decisions.

No. I am simply saying that I think part of why Lula seems anomalously anti-Israeli is as a backlash to a surge in pro-Israel sentiment across the Latin American right since the start of the 2010s, and I think this surge has been more powerful in Brazil than in other places. Obviously, public opinion should only dictate a state's position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict if public opinion agrees with my stances

(Also, note that I have been pretty consistent in the US in saying that issue polls which don't offer at least 'undecided' as an option are not necessarily to be taken at face value, because many opinions are very lightly held. Also, public opinion polling in general is often untrustworthy even in much wealthier countries than Brazil. So I don't want to assert something like "66% of Brazilians support the Israeli campaign in Gaza" as the gospel truth; I suspect the real number is far fewer. Just that I think there's a lot of ambient right-wing low-information support for Israel in Brazil which wouldn't have been there during Lula's first presidency.)

...no? People actually have free will, and it's their fault if they commit crimes. If Gaza turns into a breeding ground for terrorists (strange 'if' as this has already happened), Gazan authorities will be at fault. That's literally how fault works.

Yes, they have free will.

They can go to school, get well-paying jobs, live in nice houses, and pay for good health care.

Oh, wait.

They can't.

What a profoundly strange worldview. Do you think people who can't go to school, get well-paying jobs, and live in nice houses are justified killing people who have those things?

When people think that they have nothing to lose, they don't care whether something is "justified" or not.

OK. Court systems and ethical systems should still care about this, though.