Israel-Gaza war

[Silent Hunter]

The narrative that Israel caused the attacks was based in the conspiracy that Israel was exaggerating/lying about 10/7.

I've seen claims online that most of the civilian casualties at the music festival were caused by Israeli helicopters. That's nonsensical, because to kill that many people, you need a lot of bullets - enough for several helicopters. Too many people would have been involved to keep that a secret.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

The narrative that Israel caused the attacks was based in the conspiracy that Israel was exaggerating/lying about 10/7.

I've seen claims online that most of the civilian casualties at the music festival were caused by Israeli helicopters. That's nonsensical, because to kill that many people, you need a lot of bullets - enough for several helicopters. Too many people would have been involved to keep that a secret.

Yep. Also, Hamas filmed a huge percentage of the murders and gleefully posted them online!

[jaichind]

Red Sea attacks drive up trade transportation costs and will be inflationary

[GMantis]

To highlight the barbaric scale of destruction in Gaza, nearly 70% of all homes there are either destroyed or damaged. Yes, 70%.

Let's be clear about what is happening.

Hamas chose to invade Israel for the distinct purpose of........the kidnap, murder, rape, beheading and burning of families including women and children.

Choose your action. Choose your consequences.

Do you just ever like...acknowledge the 50+ years of occupation, colonization, and economic repression of Palestine or do you just not care?

This is the most disgusting and open lie pushed by the pro-Palestine faction: that Palestine has no choice but to respond to "the occupation" with terror and radical Islam. In reality, the occupation exists because Palestine keeps choosing terror. In reality, peoples all over the world have dealt with land losses and population transfers, and have not responded by electing terrorists, teaching their children to be martyrs, and starting suicidal wars over and over again. Palestinian culture is deeply sick, and is egged on by the rest of the world and the UN, who affirm the lie that "they have no choice".

In reality, no Israeli government has ever committed to ending the occupation under any condition. There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty. After the First Intifada forced Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians, the Rabin government agreed to give them some self-rule, however the Palestinian state which they envisioned would not actually control its own borders or airspace, meaning that the occupation would continue under another name. Now under Netanyahu the Israeli government has openly stated that its objective is to permanently prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. So to claim that the occupation is there because of the terror is simply disingenuous - there will be an occupation regardless of what the Palestinians do.

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

To highlight the barbaric scale of destruction in Gaza, nearly 70% of all homes there are either destroyed or damaged. Yes, 70%.

Let's be clear about what is happening.

Hamas chose to invade Israel for the distinct purpose of........the kidnap, murder, rape, beheading and burning of families including women and children.

Choose your action. Choose your consequences.

Do you just ever like...acknowledge the 50+ years of occupation, colonization, and economic repression of Palestine or do you just not care?

This is the most disgusting and open lie pushed by the pro-Palestine faction: that Palestine has no choice but to respond to "the occupation" with terror and radical Islam. In reality, the occupation exists because Palestine keeps choosing terror. In reality, peoples all over the world have dealt with land losses and population transfers, and have not responded by electing terrorists, teaching their children to be martyrs, and starting suicidal wars over and over again. Palestinian culture is deeply sick, and is egged on by the rest of the world and the UN, who affirm the lie that "they have no choice".

In reality, no Israeli government has ever committed to ending the occupation under any condition. There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty. After the First Intifada forced Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians, the Rabin government agreed to give them some self-rule, however the Palestinian state which they envisioned would not actually control its own borders or airspace, meaning that the occupation would continue under another name. Now under Netanyahu the Israeli government has openly stated that its objective is to permanently prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. So to claim that the occupation is there because of the terror is simply disingenuous - there will be an occupation regardless of what the Palestinians do.

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Israel has all the rights, privileges, and obligations of an imperial power. It greatly enjoys the first two, while in practice pretending the third just doesn't exist.

[Silent Hunter]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was plenty of significant violence in other places against Israelis and Jews, including in Israel itself. Including many hostage-takings.

[CumbrianLefty]

The narrative that Israel caused the attacks was based in the conspiracy that Israel was exaggerating/lying about 10/7.

I've seen claims online that most of the civilian casualties at the music festival were caused by Israeli helicopters. That's nonsensical, because to kill that many people, you need a lot of bullets - enough for several helicopters. Too many people would have been involved to keep that a secret.

It is quite likely a few were indeed killed by Israeli "friendly fire".

Beyond that, however, these claims are indeed garbage.

And at least arguably AS.

[GMantis]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was plenty of significant violence in other places against Israelis and Jews, including in Israel itself. Including many hostage-takings.

So basically any Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews anywhere in the world is justification for the denial of Palestinian sovereignty? You have effectively reiterated my point - if Israel will end the occupation only under the impossible condition that no Palestinian will ever be a threat to any Israelis, then this means that in practice that they don't ever plan to end the occupation.

[CumbrianLefty]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was plenty of significant violence in other places against Israelis and Jews, including in Israel itself. Including many hostage-takings.

So basically any Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews anywhere in the world is justification for the denial of Palestinian sovereignty? You have effectively reiterated my point - if Israel will end the occupation only the impossible condition that no Palestinian will ever be a threat to any Israelis, then this means that in practice that they don't ever plan to end the occupation.

It is basically an argument there are "no good Palestinians".

And where that leads should be pretty obvious by now, even if it wasn't before this conflict.

[Pericles]

Somehow nobody ever thinks to consider the 'legitimate security needs' of the Palestinians in all this.

[Silent Hunter]

So basically any Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews anywhere in the world is justification for the denial of Palestinian sovereignty? You have effectively reiterated my point - if Israel will end the occupation only under the impossible condition that no Palestinian will ever be a threat to any Israelis, then this means that in practice that they don't ever plan to end the occupation.

I was merely pointing out that your statement was incorrect. Indeed, that 1970s violence was frequently done by organisations under the PLO's umbrella or at least with their approval.

We're currently a long way off from even a possible condition i.e. a Palestinian state would not be a basing point for organisations to attack Israel.

@Pericles: Yes, Palestinians have legitimate security needs - this war has given a pretext for armed violence against civilians in the West Bank by settlers, which is just as wrong.

[GMantis]

So basically any Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews anywhere in the world is justification for the denial of Palestinian sovereignty? You have effectively reiterated my point - if Israel will end the occupation only under the impossible condition that no Palestinian will ever be a threat to any Israelis, then this means that in practice that they don't ever plan to end the occupation.

I was merely pointing out that your statement was incorrect. Indeed, that 1970s violence was frequently done by organisations under the PLO's umbrella or at least with their approval.

We're currently a long way off from even a possible condition i.e. a Palestinian state would not be a basing point for organisations to attack Israel.

@Pericles: Yes, Palestinians have legitimate security needs - this war has given a pretext for armed violence against civilians in the West Bank by settlers, which is just as wrong.

The PLO was based outside Palestine, so in effect you're arguing that Palestine should not be allowed sovereignty because a foreign organization was threatening Israel, so the Palestinians within Palestine could do nothing to stop its activities, meaning that the occupation wasn't in fact carried because of actions of the inhabitants of Palestine.

As for your claim that we're far off from even a possible condition, you're wrong: we're never going to reach that condition since an independent Palestinian state could always be a potential point for organization to attack Israel. The only way for Israel to prevent this would be for them control the borders of this Palestinian state, ie to de-facto continue the occupation. Therefore Israel's demands to remove any possibility of Palestine being a base against Israel is an obvious indication of the fact that Israel doesn't ever plan to allow the formation of an independent Palestinian state.

Regarding legitimate security needs, an obvious one is to not be under constant interference in their daily life by a foreign power. Unlike Israel's nebulous and unfulfilled security needs, this is something entirely within the power and obligation of Israel to carry out - by ending the occupation and removing the illegal settlers.

[patzer]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

...have you heard of the Munich Olympics massacre?

[GMantis]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

...have you heard of the Munich Olympics massacre?

Yes, but I don't believe in collective punishment. Particularly in the case where the bombing was organized by people outside Palestine, so even the argument that the occupation was needed to stop terror was invalid.

[Vosem]

To highlight the barbaric scale of destruction in Gaza, nearly 70% of all homes there are either destroyed or damaged. Yes, 70%.

Let's be clear about what is happening.

Hamas chose to invade Israel for the distinct purpose of........the kidnap, murder, rape, beheading and burning of families including women and children.

Choose your action. Choose your consequences.

Do you just ever like...acknowledge the 50+ years of occupation, colonization, and economic repression of Palestine or do you just not care?

This is the most disgusting and open lie pushed by the pro-Palestine faction: that Palestine has no choice but to respond to "the occupation" with terror and radical Islam. In reality, the occupation exists because Palestine keeps choosing terror. In reality, peoples all over the world have dealt with land losses and population transfers, and have not responded by electing terrorists, teaching their children to be martyrs, and starting suicidal wars over and over again. Palestinian culture is deeply sick, and is egged on by the rest of the world and the UN, who affirm the lie that "they have no choice".

In reality, no Israeli government has ever committed to ending the occupation under any condition. There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was no declaration of Palestinian independence until 1988, so sovereignty was not what was being asked for; instead there was a negative anti-Zionist demand.

After the First Intifada forced Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians the Rabin government agreed to give them some self-rule, however the Palestinian state which they envisioned would not actually control its own borders or airspace, meaning that the occupation would continue under another name. Now under Netanyahu the Israeli government has openly stated that its objective is to permanently prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. So to claim that the occupation is there because of the terror is simply disingenuous - there will be an occupation regardless of what the Palestinians do.

The Israeli demand has always been for a Palestinian nationalism which is not anti-Zionist; that is, one which does not have as a goal changing Israel's immigration policy. This is a perfectly reasonable demand -- democratic and authoritarian countries routinely enact immigration policies their neighbors dislike, and for that matter democratic and authoritarian countries routinely prevent 'expellees' from returning -- but one that Palestinian nationalists have been unable to meet, because, one suspects, the terminal goal is not Palestine but the nonexistence of Israel. The occupation must obviously continue until a Palestinian nationalism emerges which is not anti-Zionist; a prerequisite for this is probably the destruction of the Palestinian movement abroad, which does things like funding anti-Zionist education or pressuring governments to hold anti-Zionist stances. Hamas would not rule Gaza if not for the UNRWA.

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

I mean, 'colonial rule' has a very specific meaning and Palestine does not meet it. In terms of 'how many people have given up on a struggle for independence'...objectively lots? This happened in Khalistan and Biafra and Katanga and Ambazonia. But this is besides the point because most of the Israeli political system is on board with a Palestinian state in theory, so long as it is not anti-Zionist.

Somehow nobody ever thinks to consider the 'legitimate security needs' of the Palestinians in all this.

That would quickly lead them to the conclusion that Israel's war is justified on humanitarian grounds, considering the toll of Hamas rule, so indeed this point is rarely considered.

[Blue3]

Question: how many rocket attacks, or any other attacks, has Hamas carried out against Israel in the last month or so? Not extremely short-range in Gaza itself, as a defense, but actually into Israel?

[Silent Hunter]

Question: how many rocket attacks, or any other attacks, has Hamas carried out against Israel in the last month or so? Not extremely short-range in Gaza itself, as a defense, but actually into Israel?

At least 27 rockets on 1 January:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-stroke-of-midnight-hamas-attacks-israel-with-heavy-new-year-rocket-barrage/

The rockets are far too inaccurate for any actual defensive use.

[Lief 🗽]

Beautiful, thank you IDF!!
https://twitter.com/idf/status/1743721114088415332?s=46&t=o2RmfeV6yYJk03d3uH...

[Reactionary Libertarian]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Former Israeli hostage speaks of her experience in Hamas captivity.

Nili Margalit

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1xvUtaL9_J/

[pppolitics]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

Why, when Palestinians don’t want Israeli citizenship?

[Devils30]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

The whole point of Israel having a Jewish majority is so the country is a safe haven for Jews. If you let Palestinians become the majority, they will slaughter millions of Jews if Hamas’ behavior is any example so far. Now I know you don’t really care about what happens but a lot of people do.

[Comrade Funk]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

The whole point of Israel having a Jewish majority is so the country is a safe haven for Jews. If you let Palestinians become the majority, they will slaughter millions of Jews if Hamas’ behavior is any example so far. Now I know you don’t really care about what happens but a lot of people do.

The Israeli solution to this has been to institute an apartheid system inside the West Bank. Amazing how most Biden supporters on here seem to brush that aside.

[Horus]

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

Palestinians don’t have to give up their struggle for independence, they need to accept that they lost in 1948 and that they will not get that land back ever. If Palestinians limited their terrorism to West Bank settlers and soldiers only with the clear demand that “terrorism will only stop when you leave the West Bank” that would be one thing. But the Palestinian demand is that Israel stops existing. They need to accept that they lost in 1948 and this will not be corrected in any way. Imagine if the Algerians demanded not just that the French leave Algeria but that they also leave France. That is what Palestinians demand, and they use terrorism to pursue this fundamentally impossible goal.

Palestinians should be given Israeli citizenship as part of the amended Law of Return.

The whole point of Israel having a Jewish majority is so the country is a safe haven for Jews. If you let Palestinians become the majority, they will slaughter millions of Jews if Hamas’ behavior is any example so far. Now I know you don’t really care about what happens but a lot of people do.

Aren't Jewish birthrates in Israel now higher than Palestinian birthrates in the West Bank? I'm not at all sure Jews would be a minority under that system.

I know the Jewish-Israeli birthrate has been higher than the Arab-Israeli birthrate for a few years now.