Israel-Gaza war

[OSR stands with Israel]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

The Global South is more Pro Israel than they were in the 1980s if you want to play this game.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

The Global South is more Pro Israel than they were in the 1980s if you want to play this game.

It is true the Third World nowadays is certainly more Zionist than it was in the 80s (places like Uganda being heavily impacted by American missionary activity for instance).

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

Yeah, so both Reactionary Libertarian and I were referring to Jewish people in the west. There is far less Islamophobia among Jews in the west than among Christians.

Israel is an entirely different thing, and part of what I was mentioning was that Gen Z is too stupid to differentiate between them.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

Jewish people are per-capita the largest victims of hate crimes in the US.

Also, your ancestors probably participated in kicking Jewish people off the Iberian Peninsula, so I don't really care about your moralizing.

[Red Velvet]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

Dude, you're South American. A significant fraction of your ancestors are the people who tortured, murdered and expelled Jews from the Iberian peninsula. Now you want to play the victim as some ****ed up way to legitimise hatred toward Jews again?

If I represent my ancestors, then I’m almost literally everything in the world from oppressor to oppressed: Iberian Portuguese + Berber Muslims + Western European + Sephardic Jewish + Indigenous Americans + Italians and literally everything around the Mediterranean + Enslaved Africans who were brought here.

My country in average happens to be even MORE diverse and mixed than me and therefore is NOT a Western country because of strong Iberian genetic heritage like you’re trying to suggest. Which makes Brazil and Brazilians even more of a perfect balance in a increasingly polarized world. Latin America is the true unbiased “center” of the world exactly BECAUSE of our heritage. We can understand all points of view.

USA is quickly becoming a non-white multicultural country like us too, it’s simply inevitable. You should be embracing these changes as a STRENGTH instead of keeping a denialism based on past century “greatness” nostalgia. That greatness was mostly structured under whiteness power terms for even the people inside it.

Once USA drops Europe for the Global South, you will see that you have an important place in the new world that is emerging. You finally will be able to call yourselves a true American country, like us.

[Agafin]

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

If in those "not white" group, you are including arabs from the MENA region then they have no leg to stand on given that they all basically ethnically cleansed their jewish populations. The only difference between them and their white counterparts from Europe is that the latter at least recognizes their wrongdoings to jewish people.

[Beet]

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren call for end to unconditional aid to Israel

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/01/04/congress/warren-no-blank-check-for-israel-00133868

The progressive wing of the Democratic party is swinging into line around limits in aid to Israel. It seems a major drive of this shift is the realization that every previous president had put hard limits on Israeli action, including Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump, and Biden should follow in their footsteps as well.

There is a risk of a wider war in the Middle East, which would not benefit anyone except the most craven death-wishers, so I hope Biden can put the hammer down on Netanyahu to end the military operation as soon as possible, and if not, at least extricate the U.S. from the situation.

[pppolitics]

This NYTimes podcast explains very well why support for Israel is very much generation dependant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/podcasts/the-daily/biden-israel-us.html?

[...]

Michael Barbaro
We’ll be right back.

OK, Jonathan, what exactly does this poll tell us about how Americans view Israel and America’s relationship to Israel? You mentioned before the break that the real meaning of this poll is not how Americans think of Biden in this moment but how they think of Israel. So describe what the poll actually found.

Jonathan Weisman
Now, if you look overall, Americans do have positive feelings about Israel. They are more sympathetic to the Israelis than the Palestinians, and in general, they want America to side with Israel, to supply Israel with arms and aid. But when you look at young voters, the change is dramatic.

Very few of them believe Israel is serious about peace with the Palestinians. Nearly half say Israel is intentionally killing civilians. That is a bad sign. I mean, that’s a bad thing to do.

And nearly 3/4 say Israel is not taking enough precautions to avoid civilian casualties. A majority of those young voters actually oppose additional economic, military aid. That portends a huge shift in America’s relationship with Israel.

Michael Barbaro
Right. And so what you’re left with is a very clear understanding that this younger group of Americans — in a sense, America’s future — is very skeptical of Israel. And maybe “skeptical” isn’t even the right word for it, not strong-enough word for it, based on what you just said. They disapprove of its conduct.

Jonathan Weisman
Yes. And what’s remarkable is that there is a linear progression of this ill will coming as you go down from the older generations to the youngest generations.

Michael Barbaro
Well, just explain that — the concept of a linear progression here.

Jonathan Weisman
So if you’re from the silent generation, like Joe Biden — you’re over 70, 80 years old — that means you were alive during the Holocaust and the founding of Israel. You maybe know people who lived through those defining moments. And you’re more likely to have a strong feeling about the need for Israel and the US to support it.

Remember, the United States was the first nation in the world to recognize Israel as a sovereign country in 1948. The Baby Boom generation might not have been old enough to remember the establishment of the Israeli state, but they do remember 1967 and the Six-Day War in which Israel fended off attacks from all of its Arab neighbors and looked heroic.

They remember the 1973 War, the Yom Kippur War, when a sneak attack nearly destroyed Israel. And at that time, America’s support for Israel is unquestioned and copious. That’s when you started seeing, year after year, Congress, without question, allocating more aid to Israel than any country in the world.

Generation X may not have seen those wars, but they saw a peace process. They saw Israeli governments vacillate between liberal and conservative, and Israelis seemed serious about reaching some kind of peace accord with their Arab neighbors and with the Palestinians that would lead to two nations, side by side, reaching some kind of settlement.

Michael Barbaro
And what does that do for the view of Generation X toward Israel?

Jonathan Weisman
So Generation X might not have as monolithic support as much older generations. But Generation X members still tend to favor Israelis over Palestinians. About 57 percent in our poll said they are more sympathetic to the Israelis than the Palestinians in the current conflict.

So for this generation, you remember Bill Clinton shuttling between the United States from Washington to Tel Aviv. You remember the Oslo Accords. And for an American president, peace between Israel and Palestine is kind of the brass ring, the thing that you want the most.

Michael Barbaro
Right. OK. So what’s next?

Jonathan Weisman
Then, we move on to Millennials. Millennials remember, of course, 9/11 and a sense that the Middle East is a divisive place, a place where Americans are fighting. There is a division in Americans about whether or not our troops, our money, and resources should even be dumping into this area.

And Millennials don’t remember a peace process. What they remember is the rise of the Right in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu becoming a fixture of Israeli politics and bluntly declaring that he doesn’t want a two-state solution, he doesn’t want peace with the Palestinians. Their sense — Millennials’ sense — is that he wants to crush them.

Michael Barbaro
Right. And so here, we see an important turning point in that linear progression you described just a couple of moments ago. Millennial Americans have a profoundly different experience of Israel with their own eyes than the silent generation who watched Israel be born or the Baby Boomer generation that watched this little country that could and somehow overcome its bigger Arab rivals’ armies. This feels like a very important moment.

Jonathan Weisman
It is. And we see it in the numbers. If you look at our poll, the ages between 30 and 44 — only 36 percent say that they are more sympathetic toward Israel than the Palestinians in the current conflict. 36 percent — that is a linear decline from the older generations.

And that leads us to the current generation, the 18 - to 29-year-olds. With the 18 - to 29-year-olds, only 27 percent said they sympathize with Israelis. 46 percent said they sympathize with the Palestinians. This is the first generation in which that split is so decisive in the Palestinians’ favor.

They don’t remember peace processes. They only remember an Israel that is powerful, that is not interested in peace with the Palestinians. They see a bullying superpower in the Middle East, and they don’t like it.

Michael Barbaro
So what a meaningful number of this generation, Generation Z — how they see Israel is less and less as a victim as previous generations did, and instead increasingly see Israel as a victimizer.

Jonathan Weisman
That’s right. And they look at what’s happening in Washington with their government, and they see US military aid to Israel as increasingly important and increasingly identifiable. For instance, if you look at Iron Dome, this missile defense system in Israel, it’s built and engineered with help from the United States. The missiles that shoot down missiles being fired at Israel, especially from Hamas — parts of those missiles are made in America.

There is a sense that America is deeply entrenched in Israel, and Israel is not a nation that these youngest voters sympathize with. And now, you’re starting to see mainstream Democrats — not from the fringe Left, but the center of the party — at least talking about attaching conditions to military aid to Israel.

Such conditions are routine with other countries. I mean, we’ve been attaching conditions to aid to Pakistan for decades. But with Israel, that support has always been unconditional. This is a very big change for US-Israel relations.

Michael Barbaro
And just to bring it back to the poll, Jonathan — each generation’s experience seems to be projected onto this moment, and that’s how you get this linear progression, decline, of American support for Israel.

Jonathan Weisman
That’s right. Politics are personal. And the way somebody, some voter, experiences history will impact his or her feelings about political issues. And ultimately, aid to Israel is a political issue. And I think —

Michael Barbaro
Right.

Jonathan Weisman
— we can project forward only so much. I mean, the fact is that somebody who’s 25 years old may feel differently in the future. But the numbers are so dramatic. When you see only 27 percent of this age cohort sympathizing with Israel, you have to think that there will be residual impacts as these people grow into the power structure of the United States.

[...]

[Red Velvet]

Precisely this. You have all these seriously awful takes about “newer generations” being dumb or historically ignorant or brainwashed by Tiktok because of their different geopolitical mentality in comparison to older generations when the answer is much simpler: They look much different than previous ones.

In the video I posted, mass Mexico migration started in the 70s and 50 years is around the time you start seeing the effects as many have kids and stop being just “immigrants” to become fully American citizens.

These migration effects will become only more INTENSIFIED as migration inflows into the US are even larger nowadays from Latin America as whole, including Mexico as the main source. If the new generation isn’t something people here approved, you will only be even more sad and bitter with the one that will come in 2070.

It’s not just Latin American influxes that are even stronger now in comparison to 1970, LOOK at the video I posted. Immigration from China; India; Philippines are amongst the top source of places that arrive to live in the USA nowadays.

Of the entire TOP 20 sources of immigrants nowadays for the USA, only TWO are Western: Ukraine and only because of the current war and UK because of language but even them are decreasing in number of immigrants as you can see in the video. All the other 18 are from the Global South.

What annoys/entertains me are all the dramatic takes about “The Fall of an Empire” or “USA downfall” all based only on a shift of domestic demographics darkening and diversifying the country background lmao.

What a huge tragedy, USA won’t have the same mindset as strongly shaped by hard whiteness like it had and maybe it will become less geopolitically tied to Europe and European narratives as a result of becoming less white, “big” deal. Get a f***ing grip and stop acting like your country is slowly dying, that’s what I feel like saying. It’s just changing, like everything constantly is.

If anything that’s an opportunity for you to become more popular and powerful in the Global South if you guys finally embrace the fact you’re not white anymore and finally give up whiteness geopolitical enforcement, with special treatment always given by you to Europe while everywhere else is treated like trash. Considering that Europe is the place set to decadence in the near future while the South is the future, you’ll be well-positioned as hell in the new global order.

Brazil has always been a diverse country and that is a positive for us, it’s why we are part of the Global South with an unique identity of our own and not borrowed from someone else like USA has for the longest time.

USA is a friend American country, with shared background to us. It’s about time it finally joins us as part of the South instead of building themselves under a mirror of Europe (or what Europe represented in the past) that they never were anyway.

[Silent Hunter]

Considering that Europe is the place set to decadence in the near future while the South is the future, you’ll be well-positioned as hell in the new global order.

Debatable with climate change. The South is going to feel that a lot more.

[Horus]

USA is a friend American country, with shared background to us. It’s about time it finally joins us as part of the South instead of building themselves under a mirror of Europe (or what Europe represented in the past) that they never were anyway.

This isn't an either/or type of thing. We can easily be on good terms with both parts of the world.

[Red Velvet]

Considering that Europe is the place set to decadence in the near future while the South is the future, you’ll be well-positioned as hell in the new global order.

Debatable with climate change. The South is going to feel that a lot more.

That is all speculative but even then, that would increase mass migration movements to near the poles, transforming even more the face and cultural + geopolitical behaviors from what you understand as the Global North.

There’s no turning the clock back to XX Century or before no matter how people try it. The future has already arrived. Whites will be forced to give up their privilege no matter if domestically or internationally.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Considering that Europe is the place set to decadence in the near future while the South is the future, you’ll be well-positioned as hell in the new global order.

Debatable with climate change. The South is going to feel that a lot more.

That is all speculative but even then, that would increase mass migration movements to near the poles, transforming even more the face and cultural + geopolitical behaviors from what you understand as the Global North.

There’s no turning the clock back to XX Century or before no matter how people try it. The future has already arrived. Whites will be forced to give up their privilege no matter if domestically or internationally.

Israel is not White

[It’s so Joever]

Precisely this. You have all these seriously awful takes about “newer generations” being dumb or historically ignorant or brainwashed by Tiktok because of their different geopolitical mentality in comparison to older generations when the answer is much simpler: They look much different than previous ones.

In the video I posted, mass Mexico migration started in the 70s and 50 years is around the time you start seeing the effects as many have kids and stop being just “immigrants” to become fully American citizens.

These migration effects will become only more INTENSIFIED as migration inflows into the US are even larger nowadays from Latin America as whole, including Mexico as the main source. If the new generation isn’t something people here approved, you will only be even more sad and bitter with the one that will come in 2070.

It’s not just Latin American influxes that are even stronger now in comparison to 1970, LOOK at the video I posted. Immigration from China; India; Philippines are amongst the top source of places that arrive to live in the USA nowadays.

Of the entire TOP 20 sources of immigrants nowadays for the USA, only TWO are Western: Ukraine and only because of the current war and UK because of language but even them are decreasing in number of immigrants as you can see in the video. All the other 18 are from the Global South.

What annoys/entertains me are all the dramatic takes about “The Fall of an Empire” or “USA downfall” all based only on a shift of domestic demographics darkening and diversifying the country background lmao.

What a huge tragedy, USA won’t have the same mindset as strongly shaped by hard whiteness like it had and maybe it will become less geopolitically tied to Europe and European narratives as a result of becoming less white, “big” deal. Get a f***ing grip and stop acting like your country is slowly dying, that’s what I feel like saying. It’s just changing, like everything constantly is.

If anything that’s an opportunity for you to become more popular and powerful in the Global South if you guys finally embrace the fact you’re not white anymore and finally give up whiteness geopolitical enforcement, with special treatment always given by you to Europe while everywhere else is treated like trash. Considering that Europe is the place set to decadence in the near future while the South is the future, you’ll be well-positioned as hell in the new global order.

Brazil has always been a diverse country and that is a positive for us, it’s why we are part of the Global South with an unique identity of our own and not borrowed from someone else like USA has for the longest time.

USA is a friend American country, with shared background to us. It’s about time it finally joins us as part of the South instead of building themselves under a mirror of Europe (or what Europe represented in the past) that they never were anyway.

Indeed identity obviously shapes political opinions, but to chalk changes in opinion up solely to demography misses the obvious important fact that the circumstances today are different than they were twenty years ago and people form their political views early on.

[Red Velvet]

Indeed identity obviously shapes political opinions, but to chalk changes in opinion up solely to demography misses the obvious important fact that the circumstances today are different than they were twenty years ago and people form their political views early on.

I never said it was the ONLY reason, I said it was a BIG reason that is always ignored. Globalization has effects on changing demographics but also on how people interact with each other and therefore their access to information.

If in the past only one side could tell their version of the story, we’re closer to a world where more sides are heard simply because they’re able to exist in the media now and make themselves heard.

But besides having the platform, you also need the sympathy though and the new colors of the US new generation makes them more open to hear and give credit to those different narratives because they’re able to see at least a part of themselves in it.

Immigration assimilation goes both ways, the immigrant adopts much of the culture and national identity values it represents while also adding something new of their own to slowly transform that culture as well.

Or do you think it’s simply a coincidence that USA culturally resembles more and more a Latin American country nowadays, exactly in the moment in history where nearly 1/3 of its ENTIRE immigration poll is composed of just Mexicans (all LatAm reaching even larger shares)?

Israel is not White

So? Neither is the USA nowadays. Great reason for both to stop geopolitically acting like such.

[patzer]

So? Neither is the USA nowadays. Great reason for both to stop geopolitically acting like such.

Are you able to provide a definition of what you believe it means to geopolitically act white?

[Horus]

Indeed identity obviously shapes political opinions, but to chalk changes in opinion up solely to demography misses the obvious important fact that the circumstances today are different than they were twenty years ago and people form their political views early on.

I never said it was the ONLY reason, I said it was a BIG reason that is always ignored. Globalization has effects on changing demographics but also on how people interact with each other and therefore their access to information.

If in the past only one side could tell their version of the story, we’re closer to a world where more sides are heard simply because they’re able to exist in the media now and make themselves heard.

But besides having the platform, you also need the sympathy though and the new colors of the US new generation makes them more open to hear and give credit to those different narratives because they’re able to see at least a part of themselves in it.

Immigration assimilation goes both ways, the immigrant adopts much of the culture and national identity values it represents while also adding something new of their own to slowly transform that culture as well.

Or do you think it’s simply a coincidence that USA culturally resembles more and more a Latin American country nowadays, exactly in the moment in history where nearly 1/3 of its ENTIRE immigration poll is composed of just Mexicans (all LatAm reaching even larger shares)?

Israel is not White

So? Neither is the USA nowadays. Great reason for both to stop geopolitically acting like such.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but other than a slightly higher number of Spanish speakers than a few years ago, how do we culturally resemble a Latin American country more than ever before? Without including race and heritage in the equation, how do you define "culturally Latin American"?

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

What on Earth does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with Jews getting beaten up and spit on in the West? Muslims getting triggered at Israeli official “allowing” a few Jews to pray at the holiest site in Judaism is justification to beat up Jews? And how does Israel having the upper hand vis-a-vis the Palestinians over the last few decades mean the “power has shifted” between Jews and Arabs in the West? Explain how that works.

Reality is: even the most pro-Israel, anti-Arab Jews in the West DO NOT beat up or attack Muslims and Arabs. It just doesn’t happen. The reverse happens all the time.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

What on Earth does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with Jews getting beaten up and spit on in the West? Muslims getting triggered at Israeli official “allowing” a few Jews to pray at the holiest site in Judaism is justification to beat up Jews? And how does Israel having the upper hand vis-a-vis the Palestinians over the last few decades mean the “power has shifted” between Jews and Arabs in the West? Explain how that works.

Reality is: even the most pro-Israel, anti-Arab Jews in the West DO NOT beat up or attack Muslims and Arabs. It just doesn’t happen. The reverse happens all the time.

I was talking about dynamics in the Middle East, you were talking about the West, there's an interlink between the two but it's complex, that's the most I can say atm. Plz remind me to make an effortpost about this later. I can already tell we don't completely agree but that's to be expected.

[Red Velvet]

Indeed identity obviously shapes political opinions, but to chalk changes in opinion up solely to demography misses the obvious important fact that the circumstances today are different than they were twenty years ago and people form their political views early on.

I never said it was the ONLY reason, I said it was a BIG reason that is always ignored. Globalization has effects on changing demographics but also on how people interact with each other and therefore their access to information.

If in the past only one side could tell their version of the story, we’re closer to a world where more sides are heard simply because they’re able to exist in the media now and make themselves heard.

But besides having the platform, you also need the sympathy though and the new colors of the US new generation makes them more open to hear and give credit to those different narratives because they’re able to see at least a part of themselves in it.

Immigration assimilation goes both ways, the immigrant adopts much of the culture and national identity values it represents while also adding something new of their own to slowly transform that culture as well.

Or do you think it’s simply a coincidence that USA culturally resembles more and more a Latin American country nowadays, exactly in the moment in history where nearly 1/3 of its ENTIRE immigration poll is composed of just Mexicans (all LatAm reaching even larger shares)?

Israel is not White

So? Neither is the USA nowadays. Great reason for both to stop geopolitically acting like such.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but other than a slightly higher number of Spanish speakers than a few years ago, how do we culturally resemble a Latin American country more than ever before? Without including race and heritage in the equation, how do you define "culturally Latin American"?

US politics were something that culturally felt completely alien to me in the past, as if the priorities and topics were entirely different from whatever we were discussing.

Nowadays almost everything hits close to home so much in how it mirrors situations I always saw within my country and Latin America more broadly.

I get that major part of this is how internet and technology stimulate cultural uniformity. In that sense, not only US imported more Latin American behaviors but we also imported more if their topics.

However, there are lots of standard behaviors that wouldn’t be as popularized TO THE SAME LEVEL inside USA if it wasn’t for internal changing demographics.

For example, criticism of Israel for example, is something that to my surrounding environment always felt extremely common-sense and standard for the Left, in a cultural sense. Lots of significant Syrian and Lebanese immigrant influence in Brazil elites too, who were well-assimilated into the country culture and into christian religion, in a way that it makes harder for in the imaginary to see Arabs or Arab influence as an inherent natural threat because of irreconcilable cultural differences.

Looking at USA though, their background on that regard was always extremely exotic and alien to me. In terms of population or immigrant share in regards the entire group, I think they received less influence from these places than we did and also the Jewish immigrant community has always been stronger and more united in numbers and cultural influence in a crazy way to stimulate even minor criticism of Israel in regards relationship with Palestine to be seen as some kind of taboo or something. That never really existed here around me, that taboo is something entirely from White Western world but more specifically the Anglo Western world.

Nowadays here we have some crazy Evangelicals who are obsessed with Israel but that is a religious right-wing isolated bubble and that never existed before (result of US influence that they exist now), not something that affects the mainstream culture, where no one will blink an eye if you say criticism of Israel regardless if they disagree with you.

If anything, I always felt more socially judged and “excluded” when I didn’t trash Israel. I simply said I was curious about visiting it one day in a date with this GAY dude and he looked shocked at me, explaining how controversial it was for me to say something like that, because I would be supporting an apartheid regime through tourism.

So in a way, increasingly becoming “less of a taboo” to criticize Israel is something that I associate to the political Latin-Americanization of the US yeah, while also being tied to the country changing demographics resembling more and more Latin Americans.

That is only ONE example in order to stay on topic but I think everyone can perceive the Latin-Americanization of the USA in multiple regards beyond this. Even Trump existence and rhetoric, unintentional as it may be, has influences of communication strategies Latin American right-wing leaders have always used - reason why he’s able to connect so much better with US Latinos than past Republicans (who always sounded very white and elitist).

[GoTfan]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

What on Earth does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with Jews getting beaten up and spit on in the West? Muslims getting triggered at Israeli official “allowing” a few Jews to pray at the holiest site in Judaism is justification to beat up Jews? And how does Israel having the upper hand vis-a-vis the Palestinians over the last few decades mean the “power has shifted” between Jews and Arabs in the West? Explain how that works.

Reality is: even the most pro-Israel, anti-Arab Jews in the West DO NOT beat up or attack Muslims and Arabs. It just doesn’t happen. The reverse happens all the time.

Didn't a kid get stabbed by his landlord a while back for being Muslim?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Israel is not White

So? Neither is the USA nowadays. Great reason for both to stop geopolitically acting like such.

Israel does not act as white lmao . Western Europe really doesn’t back Israel much at all and help France and Germany have taken a stronger stance against then India has so your point is just not the case . Also if Israel acted white they wouldn’t have the types of laws they do against religious conversion as they do because those laws prevent Christian missionaries from being able to convert as many people as they want too.

Also Israel is not a colonizer and saying so is utterly absurd . The reason there is no two state solution is because the Palestinians keep rejecting one and because Islamists main issue with Israel is that they are a non Islamic state in the region.

[PSOL]

Not everything is about race y’know.

[GeneralMacArthur]

OK so is anything actually happening in Gaza or is this thread just a race war thread now?

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

What on Earth does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with Jews getting beaten up and spit on in the West? Muslims getting triggered at Israeli official “allowing” a few Jews to pray at the holiest site in Judaism is justification to beat up Jews? And how does Israel having the upper hand vis-a-vis the Palestinians over the last few decades mean the “power has shifted” between Jews and Arabs in the West? Explain how that works.

Reality is: even the most pro-Israel, anti-Arab Jews in the West DO NOT beat up or attack Muslims and Arabs. It just doesn’t happen. The reverse happens all the time.

Didn't a kid get stabbed by his landlord a while back for being Muslim?

He wasn't Jewish. He was just racist.

Islamists in this country love saying that everyone who attacks them is Jewish, when that isn't true. The vast majority of anti-Muslim hate crimes in the US are done by random Americans.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Some people in the West are just stuck inside XX Century concepts of their nations and don’t realize new generations have a completely different background.

Jewish people were racially persecuted inside the West when these countries were all massively White dominated, with white western supremacists seeing Jews as the “Lesser White” ethnicity in their countries.

Nowadays the context is completely different, with Arab and Muslim immigrants receiving the short end of the stick by far and the US soon becoming a non-white and non-western majority country due to increase of American Latino immigration.

The Western world as it existed simply doesn’t anymore, globalization transformed it into something entirely new. And Jewish people are indeed holders of white privilege in this context in the same way WASPs have always been in places like the USA.

For WHITE people I understand why they might see Jews under the lenses of white guilt because of the racially motivated massacre and genocide they as whites committed against them in first half of XX Century. However if you put yourself in the shoes of anyone who is NOT white, from their perspective the social difference between Jewish people and the average White person in the West is basically non-existent.

White supremacists don’t see Jews as “lesser white” people, they don’t see us as white at all. In fact, they see us the way much of the left views white people- as the root of all evil.

It’s true that many nonwhites in America view Jews as simply another flavor of white people and lack “Holocaust guilt” that many whites have, but anti-Semitism among nonwhites is MUCH more common than among white people. Look at any poll on anti-Semitism is rare among whites but fairly common among blacks and Latinos. And among Arabs and Muslims it is very common and goes way beyond just anti-Israel attitudes.

Bigotry against Jews is not uncommon in the Arab community and vice versa. It's far from universal in either case but it's common enough for the overall situation to deserve special care.

You’re acting like the two are equivalent. All over the West, Jews get beat up and spit on by Muslims and Arabs. The reverse simply does not occur. If Jews are “bigoted” against Arabs (most are not) it would be because of their high likelihood of being anti-Semites.

I'm not the biggest fan of "oppression olympics" or broad claims of bigotry on a vast scale, but when some Arab Christian women are gunned down in a church in Gaza by the Israeli military and multiple mosques in Gaza get blown up or otherwise destroyed, and when the West stood by as its private investor cash helped fund the removing of West Bank Arabs of their wealth for the advancing of a settler project that stood directly against local Arabs (all while the far poorer Palestinians can't get Western aid to defend themselves from freaking pogroms), there's reason to believe that fixating on Arab anti-Semitism and holding them to a test that we ourselves would very easily fail if we were put in their place, is not just not constructive, but misses the point and how power has shifted since the 1920s and 1930s, when it was Arab willingness to use violence against them that was, on net, the bigger problem.
Israel is an mini-imperial power, and while Arabs are far from completely blameless here, Smotrich and Ben Gvir and radical Zionism are in fact the biggest potential boosters of future anti-Semitism. How do you think Arabs feel when they see Israeli government officials playing around and defiling the Dome of the Rock?

What on Earth does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with Jews getting beaten up and spit on in the West? Muslims getting triggered at Israeli official “allowing” a few Jews to pray at the holiest site in Judaism is justification to beat up Jews? And how does Israel having the upper hand vis-a-vis the Palestinians over the last few decades mean the “power has shifted” between Jews and Arabs in the West? Explain how that works.

Reality is: even the most pro-Israel, anti-Arab Jews in the West DO NOT beat up or attack Muslims and Arabs. It just doesn’t happen. The reverse happens all the time.

Didn't a kid get stabbed by his landlord a while back for being Muslim?

He wasn't Jewish. He was just racist.

Islamists in this country love saying that everyone who attacks them is Jewish, when that isn't true. The vast majority of anti-Muslim hate crimes in the US are done by random Americans.

Yeah, both the murderer of the boy in Chicago and the attempted murderer of the three Palestinian college students in Vermont were known far-right conspiracy theorists. While it was possible they were motivated by October 7th, it seems likely both were driven by general anti-Muslim animus/paranoia rather than solidarity with Jews. The narrative that Israel caused the attacks was based in the conspiracy that Israel was exaggerating/lying about 10/7.