Israel-Gaza war

[Reactionary Libertarian]

So far this is not a good look for Israel. Nothing they have shown so far justifies the attack on the hospital. Was there a massive intelligence failure here? Or is it plausible that they just haven't found/shown the tunnels for some reason?

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

https://fixuptwitter.com/manniefabian/status/1725230439307128995

The IDF says it has uncovered a Hamas tunnel in the Shifa Hospital complex. It publishes a video showing the entrance.
Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian (@manniefabian)

https://twitter.com/isultan1972/status/1725260955213246753

[pppolitics]

There is, in fact, a bunker under Al Shifa Hospital.

Israel knows about it because Israel built it.

Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in a "bunker" built by Israel, intelligence officials suspect: Many are believed to be in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City, which was refurbished during Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip.

https://www.haaretz.com/2009-01-12/ty-article/sources-hamas-leaders-hiding-in-basement-of-israel-built-hospital-in-gaza/0000017f-f5ba-ddde-abff-fdffb4dd0000

The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Good lord, this is just sad. I can speak some Arabic, so I might be judging this particularly harshly...

[CumbrianLefty]

So far this is not a good look for Israel. Nothing they have shown so far justifies the attack on the hospital. Was there a massive intelligence failure here? Or is it plausible that they just haven't found/shown the tunnels for some reason?

Again, their PR at times like this is so poor.

And contrary to what some of their apologists both here and elsewhere claim, that actually matters.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Clearly tiktok is entirely to blame for why people are upset with Israel and not crap like this

[Reactionary Libertarian]

So far this is not a good look for Israel. Nothing they have shown so far justifies the attack on the hospital. Was there a massive intelligence failure here? Or is it plausible that they just haven't found/shown the tunnels for some reason?

Again, their PR at times like this is so poor.

And contrary to what some of their apologists both here and elsewhere claim, that actually matters.

Yes. I don’t believe (like some) that they targeted the hospital because they are sadists and want to hurt Palestinians. If it really is a giant Hamas command center, than the attack is perfectly justified. But if it isn’t… than this a terrible, terrible look that will absolutely destroy whatever credibility they had. Most likely reason it was an intelligence failure, the same way the October 7 attacks were. Regardless, if you’re going to attack hospitals full of civilians, you better be absolutely sure it really is a military center. I don’t think many people will sympathize with them because “it was only a mistake”.

[Silent Hunter]

Hamas have had ample opportunity to remove small items etc. Not to mention collapsing some of the tunnels. You'd need ground penetrating radar to find some of those now.

The US did ultimately find some chemical shells in Iraq, but they were completely unusable as actual weapons.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin/status/1725481914562121794

[GeneralMacArthur]

Clearly tiktok is entirely to blame for why people are upset with Israel and not crap like this

I think there's a big difference between thinking Bibi and the IDF in its current state are disgraceful, which should be a natural reaction to the intelligence failures, policy failures, duplicity and lack of discipline we've been seeing, and thinking Hamas is the good guys or 10/7 was justified or Israel is committing genocide or Jews control the world or whatever, which is what you're seeing on TikTok.

Do not conflate the two.

[John Dule]

[Hindsight was 2020]

Clearly tiktok is entirely to blame for why people are upset with Israel and not crap like this

I think there's a big difference between thinking Bibi and the IDF in its current state are disgraceful, which should be a natural reaction to the intelligence failures, policy failures, duplicity and lack of discipline we've been seeing, and thinking Hamas is the good guys or 10/7 was justified or Israel is committing genocide or Jews control the world or whatever, which is what you're seeing on TikTok.

Do not conflate the two.

I don’t, the problem is alot of people here and broadly do conflate the two

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1725532307954561279?t=qrpxP1Z7m_HeOeAdFc...

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

https://twitter.com/SouthAsiaIndex/status/1725536474672869539

It's increasingly clear that the IDF has no idea where the hostages are, no idea where the tunnels are, no idea where Hamas is, no intelligence and no plan. They're indiscriminately slaughtering innocents and pretending that every strike is on a "legitimate military target" expecting that nobody has the bravery to hold them accountable.

Will America act or stand by in the face of collective punishment from an apartheid rogue state with an illegal nuclear weapons program as it kills babies in incubators? How much longer will King George III Joe Biden launder IDF propaganda or Americans pretend they don't have the ability to instantly pull the plug on Israel's war making capability?

[Anti-Trump Truth Socialite JD Vance Enjoying Juror]

The amount of guns and grenades in a normal hospital which is being used for its intended purpose is 0. Hamas clearly doesn’t meet that standard.

That being said, Israel claimed that much more was happening there. If they can’t show any actual evidence after all this it’s another big blow to the credibility of their intelligence. The Israeli forces are behaving in an increasingly unjustified manor and eventually there is going to be a breaking point in western support. (That being said, the notion that the US can just “pull the plug” on Israel is absurd. Continued American support is helpful, but by absolutely no means necessary for them to pursue the war they are fighting).

Ideally this ends with:
- Hamas eliminated
- Prompt Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip
- Establishment of some other transitional governing body in the Gaza Strip, maybe a return to the Palestinian Authority
- An end to the illegal West Bank settlement program which ties down Israeli forces and serves only to fuel the most deranged elements of Israeli society.
- Cleaning house in Israeli intelligence after their myriad failures here.
- Netanyahu in prison.

[Beet]

I'm beginning to think the strategy is to commit as many atrocities as possible and then ditch Netanyahu so the new guy can come in with "clean hands" and do the have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too thing. In the distant future we may even get a Knesset apology for what's happening now.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1725590981033013673

(That being said, the notion that the US can just “pull the plug” on Israel is absurd. Continued American support is helpful, but by absolutely no means necessary for them to pursue the war they are fighting).

If America stopped resupplying their munitions they would have a very hard time maintaining the current pace of bombing just to take Gaza City, never mind the southern half of the strip.

If America stopped sending money the Israeli government would have a very hard time paying the costs to keep its forces mobilized and fighting

If America stopped blocking UN resolutions and sanctions were imposed it would be absolutely trivial to completely crush the Israeli economy and destroy the Israeli defense industry. Israel, unlike Russia, is economically joined at the hip to the West and could not survive the sort of international pressure that was imposed on Rhodesia or South Africa.

Israel has already surpassed the brutality of either of those regimes. Why aren't they treated as such?

[Vosem]

Will America act or stand by in the face of collective punishment from an apartheid rogue state with an illegal nuclear weapons program as it kills babies in incubators? How much longer will King George III Joe Biden launder IDF propaganda or Americans pretend they don't have the ability to instantly pull the plug on Israel's war making capability?

The actual polling pretty clearly shows there is more disapproval of Biden's response from the right ("you aren't supporting the Israelis enough") than from the perspective that he is helping them too much. Disapproval is concentrated among self-identified Republicans, who also disproportionately say that Israel's response has not been sufficiently harsh.

Anyway, I wanted to respond to you specifically with Iran's increasingly deranged official reasons for not intervening, when the simple truth is that a meaningful intervention is questionably possible for them at all and would not be likely to change the facts on the ground, which are that Israel's strategy has led them to successfully occupy most of North Gaza with relatively few military casualties (in spite of spending money employing people whose job it is to warn potential collateral victims out of the way, an absolutely insane practice for any military and orders of magnitude above what is called for by normal practice) and will lead to Hamas taking a Hezbollah-'06-style defeat at the very least.

I'm beginning to think the strategy is to commit as many atrocities as possible and then ditch Netanyahu so the new guy can come in with "clean hands" and do the have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too thing. In the distant future we may even get a Knesset apology for what's happening now.

If Israel wanted to commit as many atrocities as possible they could simply dismantle their giant bureaucracy which exists to make sure atrocities don't happen.

[Hindsight was 2020]

JFC thank you for proving my point OSR

[OSR stands with Israel]

JFC thank you for proving my point OSR

The Palestinian public basically has similar opinions as what the German public did during WW2

[John Dule]

JFC thank you for proving my point OSR

The Palestinian public basically has similar opinions as what the German public did during WW2

About 40% of Gaza's population is 14 years old or younger. The median age is only 18. Good to know Israel is doing something about all those pesky Nazi tweens!

[OSR stands with Israel]

JFC thank you for proving my point OSR

The Palestinian public basically has similar opinions as what the German public did during WW2

About 40% of Gaza's population is 14 years old or younger. The median age is only 18. Good to know Israel is doing something about all those pesky Nazi tweens!

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1725275432608575612


https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1725279104562258251

[John Dule]

OSR, I'm afraid no amount of crosstabs will be able to convince me that 14-year-olds should be blown up with missiles. There is no use in trying.

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/hzomlot/status/1725536545115889723

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Clearly tiktok is entirely to blame for why people are upset with Israel and not crap like this

I think there's a big difference between thinking Bibi and the IDF in its current state are disgraceful, which should be a natural reaction to the intelligence failures, policy failures, duplicity and lack of discipline we've been seeing, and thinking Hamas is the good guys or 10/7 was justified or Israel is committing genocide or Jews control the world or whatever, which is what you're seeing on TikTok.

Do not conflate the two.

I don’t, the problem is alot of people here and broadly do conflate the two

75% of Palestinians support genocide and 75% of them support Hamas so yes they need to be denazified

75% of Israelis (higher if you discount the "Arab Israelis") say that they don't care about civilian casualties in Gaza. Nobody bothers with similar polls asking about how many Israelis would like to exterminate Palestinians or whether they consider Palestinians to be equally human but interviews conducted with Israelis suggest that they also broadly support genocide.

Does this make the Hamas attacks on civilians justified, because they're a "genocidal population"? Should Israel be "denazified"?

This is literally the logic Bin Laden used to justify attacking American civilians and now it's being used to justify the worst atrocities of Israel.