Israel-Gaza war

[Vosem]

I don't think polling cross-tabs are helpful here, OSR. The issue, fundamentally, is that Gaza was/is an unrecognized independent state ruled by a terrorist organization, Hamas, which attacked Israel, and Israel's response is just fundamentally in accordance with the usual way the war is practiced by First World nations. If anything it is notable for the efforts taken to avoid collateral damage.

People do not deserve to be bombed. (Not for having heinous opinions, not for any other reason). Yet there is such a thing as a just war and if this one doesn't fit the bill then I don't know what possibly could. Except for AAPI, whose predictions have all proven wrong over the course of the conflict, I don't think anyone disputes that Israel's actions are leading to on-the-ground success.

OSR, I'm afraid no amount of crosstabs will be able to convince me that 14-year-olds should be blown up with missiles. There is no use in trying.

Dule, I respect you and am moderately surprised at this position coming from you, so serious question: do you think that Israel should be prevented from attacking (...given that this will basically certainly lead to renewed power for Hamas, over the people of Gaza most critically) or that countries which obey international law should be forced to value the lives of bystanders as highly as the lives of their own soldiers (...given that this would be an incentive structure highly helpful to countries which don't obey international law)? I wouldn't normally associate your thought patterns as objecting to the conduct of the war.

Anyway, we live in a fallen world and sometimes there are justified wars against Nazi tweens. There is no use denying it; one can only cry and then act.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Israelis and their supporters are absolutely deluded if they think the present military punishment will deter future Palestinian violence (or indeed, violence against Jews worldwide). Quite the opposite is the most likely scenario, I'm afraid.

[Vosem]

Clearly tiktok is entirely to blame for why people are upset with Israel and not crap like this

I think there's a big difference between thinking Bibi and the IDF in its current state are disgraceful, which should be a natural reaction to the intelligence failures, policy failures, duplicity and lack of discipline we've been seeing, and thinking Hamas is the good guys or 10/7 was justified or Israel is committing genocide or Jews control the world or whatever, which is what you're seeing on TikTok.

Do not conflate the two.

I don’t, the problem is alot of people here and broadly do conflate the two

75% of Palestinians support genocide and 75% of them support Hamas so yes they need to be denazified

75% of Israelis (higher if you discount the "Arab Israelis") say that they don't care about civilian casualties in Gaza. Nobody bothers with similar polls asking about how many Israelis would like to exterminate Palestinians or whether they consider Palestinians to be equally human but interviews conducted with Israelis suggest that they also broadly support genocide.

Does this make the Hamas attacks on civilians justified, because they're a "genocidal population"? Should Israel be "denazified"?

This is literally the logic Bin Laden used to justify attacking American civilians and now it's being used to justify the worst atrocities of Israel.

Like...no? Israel governed Palestine for decades, mostly under the rule of the parties currently in power, and did not conduct a genocide of Palestinians. (It did forcibly move Jews out of Gaza, notably). There is a political party in Israel which supports population transfers -- Otzma -- but they don't routinely commit terrorist attacks or set the government's agenda or whatever.

Most generally, Israel has civil servants committed to minimizing civilian casualties. There is no international law or standard which forces them to do this. If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties while remaining within the letter of the law, they could do so and in fact save money by doing so. Nevertheless they choose not to, because Israel's government is not just not genocidal but to an extremely unusual degree does care about civilian casualties.

75% think that the war should not stop because of the civilian casualties, which is the perspective of any reasonable person. It should be the perspective of a reasonable person living in Gaza since there is no other way to replace Hamas in power.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Should also be noted that a large proportion of the Gazan population are/are descended from people who were expelled from other parts of what is now Israel-Palestine.

[Vosem]

Israelis and their supporters are absolutely deluded if they think the present military punishment will deter future Palestinian violence (or indeed, violence against Jews worldwide). Quite the opposite is the most likely scenario, I'm afraid.

It depends on whether the war is prosecuted to a victory. Of course if there is a ceasefire tomorrow that will not be the outcome. (Past wars against the Palestinians notably did have that outcome, though: they led to greater support both from Western public opinion and from other Arab countries. Of course those wars were successful.)

Anyway, fiat iustitia, ruat caelum. With every conflict Palestinian liberationism has lost allies, and it is now facing an Israel which has Arab states as barely-disguised co-belligerents. (With this war, too, foreign governments previously willing to support Hamas have been alienated, even if they have not yet stepped back from the cause.) If this war does not make it surrender, then there will eventually be more wars, as is the nature of frozen conflicts.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Speaking of delusional thinking:

75% think that the war should not stop because of the civilian casualties, which is the perspective of any reasonable person. It should be the perspective of a reasonable person living in Gaza since there is no other way to replace Hamas in power.

"My entire extended family was just killed by Israeli bombs, my neighborhood is gone, and I don't have access to food or water---I want more of this. "

[It’s so Joever]

I wonder if the reason OSR, Fuzzy, and Vosem don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel accountable for their actions is because they don’t see the Israeli nation or people as one which is legitimate enough to be held to the same standards we hold other countries to. It’s almost as if they see Israel as some little kid who can’t think for themself and don’t view the Israeli people as mature or capable enough to be held accountable for blowing up hospitals only to not even find a single f**king tunnel that they claimed was there.

Do y’all believe that Israel is a legitimate country and the Israeli people are as intelligent and capable as the rest of the world? Because y’all sure don’t act like it to be honest.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I wonder if the reason OSR, Fuzzy, and Vosem don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel accountable for their actions is because they don’t see the Israeli nation or people as one which is legitimate enough to be held to the same standards we hold other countries to. It’s almost as if they see Israel as some little kid who can’t think for themself and don’t view the Israeli people as mature or capable enough to be held accountable for blowing up hospitals only to not even find a single f**king tunnel that they claimed was there.

Do y’all believe that Israel is a legitimate country and the Israeli people are as intelligent and capable as the rest of the world? Because y’all sure don’t act like it to be honest.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/29/us-military-mosul-airstrike-civilians-casualties-hospital

[It’s so Joever]

I wonder if the reason OSR, Fuzzy, and Vosem don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel accountable for their actions is because they don’t see the Israeli nation or people as one which is legitimate enough to be held to the same standards we hold other countries to. It’s almost as if they see Israel as some little kid who can’t think for themself and don’t view the Israeli people as mature or capable enough to be held accountable for blowing up hospitals only to not even find a single f**king tunnel that they claimed was there.

Do y’all believe that Israel is a legitimate country and the Israeli people are as intelligent and capable as the rest of the world? Because y’all sure don’t act like it to be honest.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/29/us-military-mosul-airstrike-civilians-casualties-hospital

If you read the article you linked rather than just look for a quick example to what about, you would see it was later determined this was the parking lot of a hospital. This was not a deliberate targeting of a hospital building that Israel literally built their own bases under years ago, so just stop.

[Vosem]

I wonder if the reason OSR, Fuzzy, and Vosem don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel accountable for their actions is because they don’t see the Israeli nation or people as one which is legitimate enough to be held to the same standards we hold other countries to. It’s almost as if they see Israel as some little kid who can’t think for themself and don’t view the Israeli people as mature or capable enough to be held accountable for blowing up hospitals only to not even find a single f**king tunnel that they claimed was there.

Do y’all believe that Israel is a legitimate country and the Israeli people are as intelligent and capable as the rest of the world? Because y’all sure don’t act like it to be honest.

(great troll, 10/10, I actively enjoyed reading it)

...what is an example of a way I hold other nations to a higher standard than Israel? (To be honest, the Israeli position in the right is just so clear-cut that when I think about other conflicts I compare them to Israel and Palestine as a guide-marker for what my position 'should be'; if someone is advancing ideas similar to the Palestinian ones, then I try to always take the opposite side, even if the opposite side is on much more morally gray than the Israelis, as for example with the Sri Lankan government and the LTTE. I don't think this conflict is a morally complicated one at all, and it isn't one which should be remotely controversial.)

Speaking of delusional thinking:

75% think that the war should not stop because of the civilian casualties, which is the perspective of any reasonable person. It should be the perspective of a reasonable person living in Gaza since there is no other way to replace Hamas in power.

"My entire extended family was just killed by Israeli bombs, my neighborhood is gone, and I don't have access to food or water---I want more of this. "

I was raised in a household with a living Red Army veteran, and essentially everyone who raised me were themselves raised by Red Army veterans. After Germany surrendered one of the new governments set up Victory Day as a holiday, which is still celebrated in some states ("Day of Liberation from National Socialism"). There never was, particularly, much of a post-war Nazi guerrilla resistance. Similarly, there will be peace when Palestine celebrates liberation from their current ideals. My opinion of what constitutes a just war comes from people who actually fought in wars where international law was not followed: I was given Ehrenburg and Polevoy as assigned reading. And Solzhenitsyn, too -- note that the Red Army (to our knowledge, unlike the Israeli one) actually did commit enormous atrocities, and actually represented a terrifying authoritarian regime (again, unlike the Israeli one) and yet it was in the right anyway. War is terrible, but if it is worth fighting then it is worth winning.

I think you don't agree with this because you don't see the Palestinian cause as completely and totally morally bankrupt. That's bad, and we should try to spread the idea that it is to every corner of the world, most importantly to the Palestinians themselves.

Anyway, I have no qualm with somebody looking out for their survival or the survival of their friends and family members, or doing what they must under an authoritarian regime, but I basically do have a quarrel with any Gazan (or anyone anywhere) who does not hope in their heart of hearts for Israel to win a total victory, and for the Gazan government to agree to an unconditional surrender. I hold everyone on Earth to the same standards.

[afleitch]

I think 'Gaza r Nazis actually' is a bit of a rhetorical distraction from the failure, so far, of Israel to justify the bombardment of a hospital and the deaths of hospital patients.

[Vosem]

I think 'Gaza r Nazis actually' is a bit of a rhetorical distraction from the failure, so far, of Israel to justify the bombardment of a hospital and the deaths of hospital patients.

I've been saying this since 2013 and can go hunt down a quote if you want; it is not something I invented to distract from yesterday's news or whatever. Palestinian liberationism is indeed evil for the same reason Nazism was evil: it is an ideology whose goal is conquest with the goal of genocide. That Gaza is far weaker than Germany does not mean that it should be treated differently.

Anyway, Israeli intelligence said the command center was under the hospital, as did Western intelligenc and apparently the intelligence of other Arab countries. Gamblers still seem to think there is probably a command center there; if you are confident there is not, you can go make yourself money. (At time of writing this post, 80% of bettors think the command center is under the hospital.) If there is not, then that would be very sad. But it wouldn't take away from the conflict's righteousness; Israel should still win, Hamas should still unconditionally surrender and wholly abandon its ideology, and those abroad who are calling for a ceasefire without an unconditional surrender from Hamas should atone for their actions and consider whether they really want to be bad people in their heart of hearts.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israelis and their supporters are absolutely deluded if they think the present military punishment will deter future Palestinian violence (or indeed, violence against Jews worldwide). Quite the opposite is the most likely scenario, I'm afraid.

It depends on whether the war is prosecuted to a victory. Of course if there is a ceasefire tomorrow that will not be the outcome. (Past wars against the Palestinians notably did have that outcome, though: they led to greater support both from Western public opinion and from other Arab countries. Of course those wars were successful.)

Anyway, fiat iustitia, ruat caelum. With every conflict Palestinian liberationism has lost allies, and it is now facing an Israel which has Arab states as barely-disguised co-belligerents. (With this war, too, foreign governments previously willing to support Hamas have been alienated, even if they have not yet stepped back from the cause.) If this war does not make it surrender, then there will eventually be more wars, as is the nature of frozen conflicts.

Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian. Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles. Imagine they were here under the auspices of “keeping us safe” or “promoting democracy” or “protecting their strategic interests.”

Imagine that they operated outside of US law, and that the Constitution did not apply to them. Imagine that every now and then they made mistakes or acted on bad information and accidentally killed or terrorized innocent Americans, including women and children, most of the time with little to no repercussions or consequences. Imagine that they set up checkpoints on our soil and routinely searched and ransacked entire neighborhoods of homes. Imagine if Americans were fearful of these foreign troops, and overwhelmingly thought America would be better off without their presence.

Imagine if some Americans were so angry about them being in Texas that they actually joined together to fight them off, in defense of our soil and sovereignty, because leadership in government refused or were unable to do so. Imagine that those Americans were labeled terrorists or insurgents for their defensive actions, and routinely killed, or captured and tortured by the foreign troops on our land. Imagine that the occupiers’ attitude was that if they just killed enough Americans, the resistance would stop, but instead, for every American killed, ten more would take up arms against them, resulting in perpetual bloodshed. Imagine if most of the citizens of the foreign land also wanted these troops to return home. Imagine if they elected a leader who promised to bring them home and put an end to this horror.

Imagine if that leader changed his mind once he took office.

The reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed Chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas. We would not stand for it here, but we have had a globe-straddling empire and a very intrusive foreign policy for decades that incites a lot of hatred and resentment towards us.

According to our own CIA, our meddling in the Middle East was the prime motivation for the horrific attacks on 9/11. But instead of re-evaluating our foreign policy, we have simply escalated it. We had a right to go after those responsible for 9/11, to be sure, but why do so many Americans feel as if we have a right to a military presence in some 160 countries when we wouldn’t stand for even one foreign base on our soil, for any reason? These are not embassies, mind you, these are military installations. The new administration is not materially changing anything about this. Shuffling troops around and playing with semantics does not accomplish the goals of the American people, who simply want our men and women to come home. 50,000 troops left behind in Iraq is not conducive to peace any more than 50,000 Russian soldiers would be in the United States.

Shutting down military bases and ceasing to deal with other nations with threats and violence is not isolationism. It is the opposite. Opening ourselves up to friendship, honest trade and diplomacy is the foreign policy of peace and prosperity. It is the only foreign policy that will not bankrupt us in short order, as our current actions most definitely will. I share the disappointment of the American people in the foreign policy rhetoric coming from the administration. The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome’s did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted.

It's just as true today as it was when he said it over a decade ago.

[John Dule]

OSR, I'm afraid no amount of crosstabs will be able to convince me that 14-year-olds should be blown up with missiles. There is no use in trying.

Dule, I respect you and am moderately surprised at this position coming from you, so serious question: do you think that Israel should be prevented from attacking (...given that this will basically certainly lead to renewed power for Hamas, over the people of Gaza most critically) or that countries which obey international law should be forced to value the lives of bystanders as highly as the lives of their own soldiers (...given that this would be an incentive structure highly helpful to countries which don't obey international law)? I wouldn't normally associate your thought patterns as objecting to the conduct of the war.

Anyway, we live in a fallen world and sometimes there are justified wars against Nazi tweens. There is no use denying it; one can only cry and then act.

Here is the best summary of my views on this conflict that I can give.

On 10/6, Israel apparently had no idea that an attack from Hamas was coming. It did not know Hamas' positions or where the missiles would come from. On 10/7, Hamas attacked. Immediately after that attack, Israel conducted airstrikes that they said targeted Hamas compounds, command centers, tunnels, and other strategic targets.

My initial reaction to this was of course pro-Israel, as it should be for anyone seeing Hamas' atrocities on the news. But as these airstrikes continued, I had to ask myself: Am I supposed to believe that in those 48 hours, Israel went from knowing nothing whatsoever about Hamas' bases and plans to suddenly knowing enough to carry out targeted strikes against them?  This was a massive failure of Israeli intelligence under Likud. What is more likely: That those intelligence failures were patched up within a few hours and that enough information was assembled to accurately strike Hamas, or that Netanyahu was being equally sloppy in his response so he could look like he was doing something?

The comments from Israeli government officials over the past month, coupled with the actual results on the ground, have confirmed my suspicion that the latter is the case. If Israel were using our money to go after Hamas surgically, I would not have a problem with its response. But the facts do not indicate that this is the case. Israel has killed over 10,000 civilians in one month. Israeli politicians, media figures, and settlers routinely make comments about how Gaza must be "obliterated" or "depopulated." Pro-Israel protesters in the US have openly and gleefully stated that this gives Israel an opportunity to "kill all Palestinians." Likud cabinet ministers have floated the idea of nuking Gaza. They have called Gaza a "city of evil" with "no innocents." Israeli government officials have suggested that because IDF soldiers supposedly found copies of Mein Kampf in "children's rooms" in Gaza, this means that even Palestinian children are legitimate targets. They have bombed churches, hospitals, mosques, homes, and businesses without issuing any apologies. They ordered the mass evacuation of northern Gaza, and then they bombed the evacuees.

I have known for a long time that Netanyahu was an evil monster, but the tidal wave of genocidal rhetoric currently spewing from the Israeli government is beyond anything I could have ever imagined. I'm well aware that supermajorities of Gazans supposedly support Hamas, but given the demographics of the strip, I cannot condone the murder of teenagers who were socialized into antisemitism. It is a basic liberal principle that no matter how vile someone's views are, they should not be killed for them-- hence why I am so disgusted by smoothbrained OSR and his crosstabs on "public opinion" in Gaza. What exactly is the implication behind that data? That we should kill 77% of Palestinians because they support Hamas? That they're all legitimate military targets? That their lives don't matter? If OSR thinks that 77% of Gaza is the moral equivalent of Nazis, then what exactly does he mean when he says Gaza needs to be "denazified?"

I have always supported Israel in the past because I thought the Israelis were still willing to work towards a two-state solution or a more secular, inclusive version of the Israeli state. With Likud in charge, this simply isn't true anymore. Netanyahu has unleashed the settlers on Palestinian land, illegally bulldozing Palestinian businesses and seizing their homes. Now he is planning more land grabs by forcibly depopulating Palestinian territory in response to 10/7. Until Netanyahu is removed from power and Likud is purged from the Israeli government, Israel will be an apartheid state.

[Silent Hunter]

There's a difference between knowing where facilities are and where an attack will come from.

[OSR stands with Israel]

OSR, I'm afraid no amount of crosstabs will be able to convince me that 14-year-olds should be blown up with missiles. There is no use in trying.

Dule, I respect you and am moderately surprised at this position coming from you, so serious question: do you think that Israel should be prevented from attacking (...given that this will basically certainly lead to renewed power for Hamas, over the people of Gaza most critically) or that countries which obey international law should be forced to value the lives of bystanders as highly as the lives of their own soldiers (...given that this would be an incentive structure highly helpful to countries which don't obey international law)? I wouldn't normally associate your thought patterns as objecting to the conduct of the war.

Anyway, we live in a fallen world and sometimes there are justified wars against Nazi tweens. There is no use denying it; one can only cry and then act.

I have known for a long time that Netanyahu was an evil monster, but the tidal wave of genocidal rhetoric currently spewing from the Israeli government is beyond anything I could have ever imagined. I'm well aware that supermajorities of Gazans supposedly support Hamas, but given the demographics of the strip, I cannot condone the murder of teenagers who were socialized into antisemitism. It is a basic liberal principle that no matter how vile someone's views are, they should not be killed for them-- hence why I am so disgusted by smoothbrained OSR and his crosstabs on "public opinion" in Gaza. What exactly is the implication behind that data? That we should kill 77% of Palestinians because they support Hamas? That they're all legitimate military targets? That their lives don't matter? If OSR thinks that 77% of Gaza is the moral equivalent of Nazis, then what exactly does he mean when he says Gaza needs to be "denazified?"

Basically do to Gaza what we did to Germany in WW2. The vast majority of Germans supported the Nazis and what they were doing thanks to mass propaganda just like the vast majority of people in Gaza support Hamas and then after the war we denazified Germany. This is how we did it in Germany and what Israel should do in Gaza


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#American_zone

While judicial efforts were handed over to German authorities, the US Army continued its efforts to denazify Germany through control of German media. The Information Control Division of the US Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, six radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers.[42] Its main mission was democratization but part of the agenda was also the prohibition of any criticism of the Allied occupation forces.[43] In addition, on May 13, 1946, the Allied Control Council issued a directive for the confiscation of all media that could contribute to Nazism or militarism. As a consequence a list was drawn up of over 30,000 book titles, ranging from school textbooks to poetry, which were then banned. All copies of books on the list were confiscated and destroyed; the possession of a book on the list was made a punishable offense. All the millions of copies of these books were to be confiscated and destroyed. The representative of the Military Directorate admitted that the order was in principle no different from the Nazi book burnings.[44]

The censorship in the US zone was regulated by the occupation directive JCS 1067 (valid until July 1947) and in the May 1946 order valid for all zones (rescinded in 1950), Allied Control Authority Order No. 4, "No. 4 – Confiscation of Literature and Material of a Nazi and Militarist Nature". All confiscated literature was reduced to pulp instead of burning.[Notes 1] It was also directed by Directive No. 30, "Liquidation of German Military and Nazi Memorials and Museums". An exception was made for tombstones "erected at the places where members of regular formations died on the field of battle".

Artworks were under the same censorship as other media: "all collections of works of art related or dedicated to the perpetuation of German militarism or Nazism will be closed permanently and taken into custody." The directives were very broadly interpreted, leading to the destruction of thousands of paintings and thousands more were shipped to deposits in the US. Those confiscated paintings still surviving in US custody include for example a painting "depicting a couple of middle aged women talking in a sunlit street in a small town".[45] Artists were also restricted in which new art they were allowed to create; "OMGUS was setting explicit political limits on art and representation"

We did not implement the Morgenthau Plan after WW2 so thats obviously not what denazification means

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also Dule, Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The fact is Hamas has so integrated their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure , that any military target becomes a civilian target as well. So if anyone is responsible for the large civilian death total its Hamas and not Israel.

[John Dule]

Also Dule, Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The fact is Hamas has so integrated their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure , that any military target becomes a civilian target as well. So if anyone is responsible for the large civilian death total its Hamas and not Israel.

Am I seriously supposed to read those comments from Likud politicians and still give them the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to minimize civilian casualties?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also Dule, Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The fact is Hamas has so integrated their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure , that any military target becomes a civilian target as well. So if anyone is responsible for the large civilian death total its Hamas and not Israel.

Am I seriously supposed to read those comments from Likud politicians and still give them the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to minimize civilian casualties?

I mean you could take what many neocon politicians said in the Bush years to not give us the benefit of doubt when it came to minimizing civilian casualities in Iraq, but it was clear that we did our best to do so.

Likud isnt running day to day military operations just like the GOP didnt run day to day military operations in Iraq

[John Dule]

Also Dule, Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The fact is Hamas has so integrated their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure , that any military target becomes a civilian target as well. So if anyone is responsible for the large civilian death total its Hamas and not Israel.

Am I seriously supposed to read those comments from Likud politicians and still give them the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to minimize civilian casualties?

I mean you could take what many neocon politicians said in the Bush years to not give us the benefit of doubt when it came to minimizing civilian casualities in Iraq, but it was clear that we did our best to do so.

Likud isnt running day to day military operations just like the GOP didnt run day to day military operations in Iraq

OSR, imma be honest. If you want me on your side, comparing Israel to the Bush administration is not the way to go.

[Horus]

There's a difference between knowing where facilities are and where an attack will come from.

True, but it seems like the IDF knows neither. I always knew that like the Mossad the bark of their PR was bigger than their actual skill level, but this is just sad. A complete and total failure at every level of the Israeli government.

[pppolitics]

Does anyone want to justify this?

https://twitter.com/_RichardHall/status/1725498963174752490
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1725174435747922364

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/MarkLandler/status/1724749603537400044

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Israelis and their supporters are absolutely deluded if they think the present military punishment will deter future Palestinian violence (or indeed, violence against Jews worldwide). Quite the opposite is the most likely scenario, I'm afraid.

Netanyahu said he needed Hamas, so he's fine with this.

[MT Treasurer]

Also Dule, Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians. The fact is Hamas has so integrated their military infrastructure into civilian infrastructure , that any military target becomes a civilian target as well. So if anyone is responsible for the large civilian death total its Hamas and not Israel.

This is outright IDF propaganda — even if (and it’s a ridiculous if) we suppose that parts of every single civilian-infrastructure target they have bombed so far were possibly/potentially used for military purposes, they still knew that bombing the entire complex would clearly result in large civilian casualties. And no, they quite evidently didn’t "warn" everybody residing in every building they bombed, as you can tell from the death toll.