Israel-Gaza war

[strangerinthealps]

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They have sown the wind, and so they shall reap the whirlwind."

- Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Travers Harris

The carpet-bombing of Germany is not something to be emulated, FFS.

Agree to disagree...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

People need to be fired at the BBC and Reuters. Synagogues and embassies across the Middle East are being attacked because of their fake reporting.

Well tbf for pretty much all journalistic agencies it is really hard to get the kind of real time reporting, boots on the ground, etc... from Gaza.

Well yes obviously, which arguably makes caution more than less important.

The fact is that several reputable media outlets (BBC, Reuters, NYT) ran straightforward headlines of the "ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE FLATTENS HOSPITAL AND KILLS HUNDREDS" variety. Yes they then added the almost invisible qualification of "according to Palestinian sources" but leaving aside who precisely those "sources" are, who is actually going to take notice of such a feeble caveat?

To 99% of those seeing them, the message was simple and unequivocal - Israel did it.

The ensuing consequences were entirely predictable, and showed it up as irresponsible journalism.

And at this point it would still have been irresponsible even if there turn out to be more wrinkles in this story that inculpate the IDF again, because it would still be based on snap-judgment acceptance of atrocity propaganda from a combatant party rather than whatever, in that case, will have actually happened.

[Middle-aged Europe]

German public-broadcasting radio station Deutschlandfunk (kind of our version of NPR) apologizes for initially blaming Israel for the hospital explosion:

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/unser-fehler-in-einem-x-post-100.html

[strangerinthealps]

Firstly, this is illegal conquest of territory.

Under what law?

If Israel is planning outright annexation (and I wouldn't expect them to do so before annexing parts of the West Bank), Chapter I of the United Nations charter.

So what leads you to believe they would want to annex that ***-hole?

[strangerinthealps]

By the time it gets debunked, a riot may have already resulted in people getting killed or someone in a position of authority may have rang a bell that can't be un-rung.

This has already been an issue - ex. people posting pictures/videos of explosions, damage or dead bodies from previous conflicts or misidentifying the location/identity of the events - and I don't know what you do about it when the overwhelming majority of people who tweet are not professional journalists and aren't bound by any journalistic ethics or best practices.

 She continued to insist it happened because, ultimately, she already emotionally invested herself in it happening and when you're surrounded by people who also think it happened, there is no off ramp or permission structure to change your mind based on additional information. You just have to deny the validity or existence of the information.

Kind of like 'Hands Up, Don't Shoot"?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Geopolitical Boundaries

1930-2023

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxJaE5msIRc/

[strangerinthealps]

People need to be fired at the BBC and Reuters. Synagogues and embassies across the Middle East are being attacked because of their fake reporting.

They will receive promotions for generating even more news to breathlessly report, generating additional ad revenue.

It's just a business, now.

If it Bleeds...

[strangerinthealps]

People need to be fired at the BBC and Reuters. Synagogues and embassies across the Middle East are being attacked because of their fake reporting.

Well tbf for pretty much all journalistic agencies it is really hard to get the kind of real time reporting, boots on the ground, etc... from Gaza.

Well yes obviously, which arguably makes caution more than less important.

The fact is that several reputable media outlets (BBC, Reuters, NYT) ran straightforward headlines of the "ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE FLATTENS HOSPITAL AND KILLS HUNDREDS" variety. Yes they then added the almost invisible qualification of "according to Palestinian sources" but leaving aside who precisely those "sources" are, who is actually going to take notice of such a feeble caveat?

To 99% of those seeing them, the message was simple and unequivocal - Israel did it.

The ensuing consequences were entirely predictable, and showed it up as irresponsible journalism.

"It's so hard to be careful, so easy to be led
Somewhere beyond the pavement, you'll find the living dead"

- Tom Petty

[Agafin]

Even if the IDF story is true (and I am inclined to think they did not target the hospital "for the lulz" but otherwise i have honestly no idea what happened), the damage done to the West's reputation is becoming incalculable purely because we have swathes of politicians eager to "stand with Israel" while giving a guy like Netenyahu, even reviled in his own country, an endorsement on any story he produces and any potential war crime the IDF commits. This is mana from heaven for Putin and Xi in Muslim countries [all while the regimes of these peoples are dysfunctional messes that cause emigration and none of them bother bringing up the case of the  Uyghurs, which is a systemic slow burn genocide as opposed to a bloody COIN operation] and will fast spread to other theatres.

https://twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/1714535960615039302

Israel has more than enough capacity to deal with this threat, we should have purely focused the PR on humanitarian aid and avoiding civilian deaths, removing terror organsiations, etc. We could always support Israel in a more subtle manner. Instead its become a "Clash of Civilizations" style rhetoric that will cost us dearly.

As someone from the so-called "Global South", there is pretty much nothing that the "West" can do to be popular again here, I witness it (it's declined popularity) daily and I really don't think the "West" should even bother to try and change it. While there are valid reasons for it's declining popularity (at least in the case the Africa), there are also a lot of stupid reasons and in some cases, the West would need to take some unnaceptable positions (such as being anti-LGBT or supporting Russia in its war with Ukraine) to be viewed more positively, so it's pointless.

[prag_prog]

The amount of damage media has done with that hospital story is insane. Just look at the replies and quotes to this tweet...some leftists are never gonna be convinced regarding what happened...just everyone piling up on this guy

https://twitter.com/randygdub/status/1714655833441862130

[jaichind]

https://bnn.network/world/israel/israel-receives-first-batch-of-us-armoured-vehicles-for-battle-replacement/

"Israel Receives First Batch of US Armoured Vehicles for Battle Replacement"

[Meclazine for Israel]

Benjamin Netanyahu

A Brief History of Israel

https://fb.watch/nN0wum5B0Q/

The Muslims are going bezerk on Instagram at the moment over the hospital car park explosion.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1714780149663551512?t=LB_IegiPdDkMIXy5FHu...
https://twitter.com/BCFinucane/status/1714780336410751214?t=-_Y0EYdvFRevRrg65gpq...

[strangerinthealps]

https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1714780149663551512?t=LB_IegiPdDkMIXy5FHu...
https://twitter.com/BCFinucane/status/1714780336410751214?t=-_Y0EYdvFRevRrg65gpq...

No worries. Biden still has the full support of Admiral Levine.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1714780149663551512?t=LB_IegiPdDkMIXy5FHu...
https://twitter.com/BCFinucane/status/1714780336410751214?t=-_Y0EYdvFRevRrg65gpq...

That's pretty damning.

[strangerinthealps]

That's pretty damning.

Is it? How so?

[Pres Mike]

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

Right- Egypt and Jordan have dropped all claims to Gaza/WB, and there has never been any internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state, so surely Israel would be the only country with any rights to the area.

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state. Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed. The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

[strangerinthealps]

https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1714780149663551512?t=LB_IegiPdDkMIXy5FHu...
https://twitter.com/BCFinucane/status/1714780336410751214?t=-_Y0EYdvFRevRrg65gpq...

That's pretty damning.

Now THIS is damning...

https://www.foxnews.com/media/son-hamas-leader-breaks-silence-decision-denounce-terror-group-care-palestinians

Son of Hamas leader breaks silence on decision to denounce terror group: 'They don't care' about Palestinians

Mosab Hassan Yousef fled the Middle East and converted to Christianity after spending time behind bars in Israel
By Bailee Hill

Son of Hamas leader speaks out as war rages with Israel
The son of a founding Hamas leader broke his silence on his decision to denounce the terrorist group after he turned on his own family and converted to Christianity when he saw the horrors of the group's reign firsthand.

Mosab Hassan Yousef, who spied in favor of the Israelis and sought asylum in the U.S., spoke out on his decision to leave the life of terror behind during "FOX & Friends."

"I was born at the heart of Hamas leadership… and I know them very well. They don't care for the Palestinian people. They do not regard the human life," Yousef told Brian Kilmeade Thursday.

"I saw their brutality firsthand back in 1996 when I spent about a year and a half in Megiddo Prison… They killed so many Palestinian people at that point, and this is when I decided that I cannot be together with this movement."

"I had to be honest with myself. Even though Hamas gave me advantages…. I was like a prince in that world… but I did not like them," he continued. "I turned against even my own blood… because this is how much I did not like Hamas, and today, 25 years later, they are the rulers of Gaza, and we see what they are capable of doing."

His remarks come almost two weeks after the terror group carried out a massacre on Israeli border communities, murdering and dismembering civilians, including children, and taking hostages.

‘Pure horror’ in small town Israeli homes, Trey Yingst reportsVideo
They also reportedly have upwards of 200 hostages held in Gaza, which is currently facing dire food, water and medicine shortages.

Israel declared war shortly thereafter and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have traded airstrikes with Hamas as a ground invasion remains imminent.

"Hamas is not a national movement. Hamas is a religious movement with a goal to establish an Islamic state," Yousef said. "They don't care for nationalism. Actually, they are against nationalism. But that's my understanding that they are using the Palestinian cause only to achieve their goals, so the long-term goal… [is] transforming the Middle East and the world into an Islamic state."

But Yousef said the real culprit behind the scenes is Iran - a known sponsor of the terror group.

The country's foreign minister posted an ominous tweet on Wednesday that said time is "running out" for Israel.

"Iran is the real master in this picture," Yousef said. "Hamas does not serve the Palestinian people, Hamas serves Iran. Those are the masters of Hamas. So their lie about nationalism, that they are a national movement… They are using Palestinian people as a human shield."

Lt Gen. David Deptula: Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah are engaging in 'lawfare'Video
"We need to free Gaza from Hamas," he continued. "Israel … is doing the Palestinian people the greatest favor by bringing Hamas down."

At least 4,800 people have been killed on both sides since the war began earlier this month, including at least 30 Americans.

[strangerinthealps]

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state. Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed. The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

I agree with you that Israel shouldn't be creating settlements in West Bank.

You DO realize that Egypt is also an active participant in the blockade of Gaza, right?

Do you also realize that Hamas strategically set up and fire their rockets from civilian homes, school and hospitals and use those spaces for their paramilitary operations?

As you are obviously a scholar of international military law, what is the legality of that?

I'll wait.

[YPestis25]

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state. Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed. The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

I agree with you that Israel shouldn't be creating settlements in West Bank.

You DO realize that Egypt is also an active participant in the blockade of Gaza, right?

Do you also realize that Hamas strategically set up and fire their rockets from civilian homes, school and hospitals and use those spaces for their paramilitary operations?

As you are obviously a scholar of international military law, what is the legality of that?

I'll wait.

All these actions can be and are illegal at the same time, clearly. What's the point of this post?

[Silent Hunter]

All these actions can be and are illegal at the same time, clearly. What's the point of this post?

The use of those facilities for military purposes eliminates their protected status while they are being used as such.

[YPestis25]

All these actions can be and are illegal at the same time, clearly. What's the point of this post?

The use of those facilities for military purposes eliminates their protected status while they are being used as such.

Ah - I was focused more on the right to title discussion at the beginning of Mike's post, my apologies.

[Lief 🗽]

Pretty clear at this point that the “Gaza Health Ministry” (Hamas) cannot be trusted.
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1715029129685270690?s=46&t=o2RmfeV6yYJk0...

[Vosem]

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

Right- Egypt and Jordan have dropped all claims to Gaza/WB, and there has never been any internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state, so surely Israel would be the only country with any rights to the area.

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state.

The international community cannot do this without the agreement of the country in question here, which is Israel. (I agree that the predominant opinion within the international community is that these areas were never legitimately Israeli to begin with, but that is very much not how decolonization usually works; it respects colonial-era borders. Otherwise Africa -- and for that matter the Middle East -- would be much more splintered than it actually is; consider the nonrecognition of independence movements in Ambazonia/Biafra/Katanga. And Kurdistan.)

Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed.

No, Israel agreed to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, but never agreed that it would comprise the entirety of these areas. It only ever agreed to withdraw from Areas A and B (and Gaza), which do not comprise most of the West Bank territorially, and it has never recognized with finality that it does not have a claim to any specific part of the West Bank or Gaza. Israel has never actually agreed to withdraw from Area C (though this has been offered, in 2000 and 2008, in exchange for Palestinian concessions, specifically the permanent disclaiming of any Palestinian right of return or influence over Israeli immigration policy; this was never actually agreed to).

It also did not fully withdraw, as you point out; both sides blame the other for not fulfilling their part of the agreement.

The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

No. Multiple theories have been proposed for why this would be the case, so I don't know which to respond to here, but they are all wrong.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

Nobody has seriously put this forward since the 1950s and this rule has very clearly gone into desuetude; otherwise a literally double-digit number of things done by permanent Security Council members (US/Russia/China/France, at least) would be illegal. (It is also not relevant because, again, Gaza belongs to Israel under normal rules, so suppressing some political entity there which is not recognizing Israeli jurisdiction is defense under normal rules.)

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

Targeting non-military targets is a war crime. Reoccupying Gaza would not be one, because under normal international law Gaza belongs to Israel. (And even if it didn't, given that its government tried to hold positions in Israeli territory...uh...last weekend, Israel would still be justified in advancing until that government is replaced, though really the issue here is just that the territory's rightful ruler under normal laws is Israel).

As we have already discussed, it is a long-standing policy of Hamas to militarize hospitals and schools (and apparently mosques), and use them as sites for storing or launching weapons. This would, in fact, make them quite valid military targets; that Israel does not do things like destroying hospitals is because its government holds its military to a (substantially) higher standard than normal international law.

[strangerinthealps]

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state. Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed. The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

I agree with you that Israel shouldn't be creating settlements in West Bank.

You DO realize that Egypt is also an active participant in the blockade of Gaza, right?

Do you also realize that Hamas strategically set up and fire their rockets from civilian homes, school and hospitals and use those spaces for their paramilitary operations?

As you are obviously a scholar of international military law, what is the legality of that?

I'll wait.

All these actions can be and are illegal at the same time, clearly. What's the point of this post?

So you are positing that if an enemy fires rockets at your civilians from the 'protection' of civilian centers, in violation of international law, you cannot return fire against those rockets without violating international law?