Israel-Gaza war

[Hindsight was 2020]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

You can't just act like history began a week ago.

If I were Israel I wouldn't have funded and supported Hamas in the first place. Instead of crowding my citizens into Bantustans and propping up a fake opposition to justify ever escalating crimes I would recognize the reality that both Israel and Palestine are defacto a single state. I would grant all citizens within this territory equal rights regardless of religion, as is expected (even if it may not be enforced) of literally every developed country that isn't Israel. Palestinians would gain the right to freely travel, to buy property and to leave Gaza. Neither settlers nor West Bank Palestinians would be forcibly deported but all would be free to stay or live where  they please. Then whatever remained of Hamas and other terrorist groups could be dealt with the way civilized countries deal with terrorism: professional police and intelligence, not indiscriminate airstrikes. Or there could be some sort of Good Friday agreement to disarm militias without bloodshed.

South Africa experienced all sorts of atrocities at the hands of the ANC and other rebel groups. Necklacing is among the most brutal methods of execution and it was pioneered by the ANC. Yet despite the atrocities they were somehow able to end apartheid. Why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?

Upset but somehow no calls for no-fly zones, or sanctions, or sending supplies to Gaza, or treating Israel as a pariah state like South Africa. Mostly a lot of hand wringing and "what can you do?"s from the same people who were most enthusiastic about unending support for Ukraine. RV can make some pretty boneheaded and shortsighted posts but in this case he is absolutely 100% correct

"If only we had some sort of measure we use against countries that violated international law!"

Geeh I wonder why people might be more fine giving a conventional military sending arms to a place that would likely end up in the hands of a terrorist organization that just beheaded babies?

But giving air support to the terrorists who literally exterminated entire towns in Libya was A-OK I guess? Or the terrorists who eventually became Al-Nusra and ISIS in Syria?

And putting aside the very long precedent of having zero qualm arming the worst possible people, what about humanitarian aid? What about sanctions? What about literally any of the measures taken against so-called "rogue states" over the past several decades? If you discount the fact that Israel is Above The Law then there are a huge range of options short of sending Hamas military equipment. Why are these options never on the table when it comes to Israel?

Libya and Syria are lazy whataboutisms considering the atrocities Gaddafi and Assad had/have done that the country you have as an avatar enabled (especially Assad). When it comes to humanitarian aid you already seeing that this is an issue with groundswell western support by the fact after being so gung-ho that Biden raised these concerns

So to be clear, you believe there's a point where a state commits enough atrocities that arming baby killing terrorists is justified after all? Could you define the line Israel would have to cross for a no-fly zone and arming Hamas to be the correct course of action? How about sanctions? Come on, lets now be vague and talk about "atrocities" somehow changing the calculus, tell me specifically: what crime committed by Assad or Gaddafi that the Israelis haven't would cause Biden to take a hard line? An illegal WMD program, perhaps a secret nuclear program? The number of civilians killed in the entire Libyan Civil War (at least the first phase) was somewhere in the high thousands to low tens of thousands. If Bibi surpasses that number will American F-35's intervene to end the bombing campaign? Is there any conceivable action that would result in sanctions being imposed on "America's Greatest Ally"?

If you haven't noticed my signature I'm not exactly a fan of Putin but he didn't defend Assad because of "international law" or "human rights" but because Assad was his ally. And all the evidence suggests that Biden isn't sending aircraft carriers to protect Israel from retaliation because of the "rules based international order" but for similarly amoral reasons. My point isn't "America is just like Putin, therefore Putin is justified", it's "America is just like Putin, therefore we live in a world of murderous amoral tyrants who only care about human rights so far as it benefits them personally"

No and at no point in my post did I imply that only that invoking them to own the West is a bad example also Assad gassed civilians and as bad as Israel has been they haven’t gone down that road

They've only starved the civilians, demolished the hospitals, threatened ethnic cleansing, declared "there are no civilians in Gaza" and smoked their houses with white phosphorous (ie. a chemical weapon that isn't a Chemical Weapon). But okay, are you saying that if Israel used chemical weapons in combat that you'd support an anti-Israeli no-fly zone? Is that the magic line where mealy mouthed, half-assed requests for restraint from the Biden administration would transform into threats of obliteration and plans to remove the Netanyahu regime? The IDF can do anything in Gaza short of deploying WMDs and the "International Rules Based Order" won't so much as cut a cent of military funding, let alone threaten the sort of responses Iran has gotten over the past few decades?

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth like I’m okay with how Israel conducts itself?

[Silent Hunter]

South Africa experienced all sorts of atrocities at the hands of the ANC and other rebel groups. Necklacing is among the most brutal methods of execution and it was pioneered by the ANC. Yet despite the atrocities they were somehow able to end apartheid. Why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?

They never did anything of the scale and type of what Hamas did a week ago. Their targets were generally military or police personnel and infrastructure.

[windjammer]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So what would you do?

[Hindsight was 2020]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So what would you do?

Again there’s a happy middle ground between not retaliating and what Israel is doing

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's certainly a disgrace. We (the western world and its liberal values) will pay a high price for it

https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1713210261996462512?t=bM7yVJGecfofH5zcd3hd5w...

No one with a brain buys the ~west cares about the liberal order~ propaganda discourse outside the West.

The West has propelled dictatorships and genocide when it saw that as aligned to their material self-interests. They use liberalism and democracy as an instrument only, not as a goal, especially in foreign countries.

If a democracy starts going against their interests on any matter, they will promote regime change undercover and more discreetly. If an autocracy starts doing that, then they will be more open about it and justify it as fighting terrorism or dictatorship in name of liberal values.

However, if a democracy or an autocracy aligns with their interests, they will treat as “liberal allies” no matter the horrors they may commit when they happen to be a dictatorship.

I don't buy most of your arguments, but no doubt that most of the folks attacking you without caring to address the fundamental question stressed above are, in fact, validating you

Most of use don’t have patience for a poster who (by his own standards) supports genocide of Ukrainians saying how westerners are bunch of hypocrites especially when most westerners here made upset about how Palestinians are treated

I don't think RV is a hypocrite per se. He has a Kissingerian worldview where all that matters is who's on whose side and who's not, only he's on a different side than Kissinger. What's infuriating is his belief that anyone who claims nobler motives must be lying, but that's different from hypocrisy.

I don’t believe in that at all. What happens is that I understand that this is how the real world actually works to this day and how leaderships base themselves to act on. Actions matter more than words and virtue-signaling.

And I've never disputed that to my recollection; what I dispute is the idea that, since leaderships have these motivations, the rest of us can't decide how to feel about international situations based on moral concerns. I don't think Biden is being nearly critical enough of the Israeli response here, whereas if anything I think he's getting too squeamish about continued support from Ukraine, because I'm a human being with beliefs and values, not an avatar of all the worst features of my country's political and military leadership.

Also, please don't edit my screen name in posts quoting me to make me look more right-wing. Who does that?!

The quotes in your username break the BBCode and cause everyone's replies to do that, unfortunately.

I actually do not know how I never noticed this before. Sorry, RV.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

You can't just act like history began a week ago.

If I were Israel I wouldn't have funded and supported Hamas in the first place. Instead of crowding my citizens into Bantustans and propping up a fake opposition to justify ever escalating crimes I would recognize the reality that both Israel and Palestine are defacto a single state. I would grant all citizens within this territory equal rights regardless of religion, as is expected (even if it may not be enforced) of literally every developed country that isn't Israel. Palestinians would gain the right to freely travel, to buy property and to leave Gaza. Neither settlers nor West Bank Palestinians would be forcibly deported but all would be free to stay or live where  they please. Then whatever remained of Hamas and other terrorist groups could be dealt with the way civilized countries deal with terrorism: professional police and intelligence, not indiscriminate airstrikes. Or there could be some sort of Good Friday agreement to disarm militias without bloodshed.

South Africa experienced all sorts of atrocities at the hands of the ANC and other rebel groups. Necklacing is among the most brutal methods of execution and it was pioneered by the ANC. Yet despite the atrocities they were somehow able to end apartheid. Why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?

Upset but somehow no calls for no-fly zones, or sanctions, or sending supplies to Gaza, or treating Israel as a pariah state like South Africa. Mostly a lot of hand wringing and "what can you do?"s from the same people who were most enthusiastic about unending support for Ukraine. RV can make some pretty boneheaded and shortsighted posts but in this case he is absolutely 100% correct

"If only we had some sort of measure we use against countries that violated international law!"

Geeh I wonder why people might be more fine giving a conventional military sending arms to a place that would likely end up in the hands of a terrorist organization that just beheaded babies?

But giving air support to the terrorists who literally exterminated entire towns in Libya was A-OK I guess? Or the terrorists who eventually became Al-Nusra and ISIS in Syria?

And putting aside the very long precedent of having zero qualm arming the worst possible people, what about humanitarian aid? What about sanctions? What about literally any of the measures taken against so-called "rogue states" over the past several decades? If you discount the fact that Israel is Above The Law then there are a huge range of options short of sending Hamas military equipment. Why are these options never on the table when it comes to Israel?

Libya and Syria are lazy whataboutisms considering the atrocities Gaddafi and Assad had/have done that the country you have as an avatar enabled (especially Assad). When it comes to humanitarian aid you already seeing that this is an issue with groundswell western support by the fact after being so gung-ho that Biden raised these concerns

So to be clear, you believe there's a point where a state commits enough atrocities that arming baby killing terrorists is justified after all? Could you define the line Israel would have to cross for a no-fly zone and arming Hamas to be the correct course of action? How about sanctions? Come on, lets now be vague and talk about "atrocities" somehow changing the calculus, tell me specifically: what crime committed by Assad or Gaddafi that the Israelis haven't would cause Biden to take a hard line? An illegal WMD program, perhaps a secret nuclear program? The number of civilians killed in the entire Libyan Civil War (at least the first phase) was somewhere in the high thousands to low tens of thousands. If Bibi surpasses that number will American F-35's intervene to end the bombing campaign? Is there any conceivable action that would result in sanctions being imposed on "America's Greatest Ally"?

If you haven't noticed my signature I'm not exactly a fan of Putin but he didn't defend Assad because of "international law" or "human rights" but because Assad was his ally. And all the evidence suggests that Biden isn't sending aircraft carriers to protect Israel from retaliation because of the "rules based international order" but for similarly amoral reasons. My point isn't "America is just like Putin, therefore Putin is justified", it's "America is just like Putin, therefore we live in a world of murderous amoral tyrants who only care about human rights so far as it benefits them personally"

No and at no point in my post did I imply that only that invoking them to own the West is a bad example also Assad gassed civilians and as bad as Israel has been they haven’t gone down that road

They've only starved the civilians, demolished the hospitals, threatened ethnic cleansing, declared "there are no civilians in Gaza" and smoked their houses with white phosphorous (ie. a chemical weapon that isn't a Chemical Weapon). But okay, are you saying that if Israel used chemical weapons in combat that you'd support an anti-Israeli no-fly zone? Is that the magic line where mealy mouthed, half-assed requests for restraint from the Biden administration would transform into threats of obliteration and plans to remove the Netanyahu regime? The IDF can do anything in Gaza short of deploying WMDs and the "International Rules Based Order" won't so much as cut a cent of military funding, let alone threaten the sort of responses Iran has gotten over the past few decades?

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth like I’m okay with how Israel conducts itself?

Because I'm trying to figure out the point where not being okay with something transforms to demands for action. America wasn't just "not okay" with Gaddafi, they imposed a no-fly zone and removed his regime. America wasn't just "not okay" with the Iran, they imposed sanctions on the whole country. If we live under an "International Rules Based Order" then by any standard these represent *precedents*, not "whataboutism".

Why can't America treat Israel the way it treats other countries? Not with mere disapproval, but with action? Don't let me put words in your mouth, tell me what atrocity Israel could commit besides using WMDs that would make you advocate actual actions against the regime?

South Africa experienced all sorts of atrocities at the hands of the ANC and other rebel groups. Necklacing is among the most brutal methods of execution and it was pioneered by the ANC. Yet despite the atrocities they were somehow able to end apartheid. Why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?

They never did anything of the scale and type of what Hamas did a week ago. Their targets were generally military or police personnel and infrastructure.

You should look into the history of necklacing, the vast majority of whose victims were neither military nor police.

But the point is that there are no amount of atrocities that justify apartheid, end of story, full stop. There are countless examples across history where sectarian wars were ended by compromise despite horrific atrocities. I've already mentioned the Good Friday Agreement and even more recently the Tutsis didn't use their victimization during the Rwandan Genocide to justify an apartheid state to oppress the Hutus despite achieving near total military victory. Far more brutal conflicts than the Israel-Palestine conflict have been resolved through the stronger party making concessions to ensure a lasting and just peace.

The difference is that in those conflicts one side didn't have the unconditional backing of the world's sole superpower.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I want military aid to Israel military cut off now also I haven’t even called for no-fly zones or the US invading Russia so contrary to the narrative you want to push I’m not holding Israel to some double standard

[pppolitics]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

Well, that is hard to say without knowing my motivation.

Am I a Labor PM looking to co-exist with the Palestinians or a Likud PM looking to steal Palestinian land?

[Saint Milei]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

[OSR stands with Israel]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

[Velasco]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

You can't just act like history began a week ago.

If I were Israel I wouldn't have funded and supported Hamas in the first place. Instead of crowding my citizens into Bantustans and propping up a fake opposition to justify ever escalating crimes I would recognize the reality that both Israel and Palestine are defacto a single state. I would grant all citizens within this territory equal rights regardless of religion, as is expected (even if it may not be enforced) of literally every developed country that isn't Israel. Palestinians would gain the right to freely travel, to buy property and to leave Gaza. Neither settlers nor West Bank Palestinians would be forcibly deported but all would be free to stay or live where  they please. Then whatever remained of Hamas and other terrorist groups could be dealt with the way civilized countries deal with terrorism: professional police and intelligence, not indiscriminate airstrikes. Or there could be some sort of Good Friday agreement to disarm militias without bloodshed.

South Africa experienced all sorts of atrocities at the hands of the ANC and other rebel groups. Necklacing is among the most brutal methods of execution and it was pioneered by the ANC. Yet despite the atrocities they were somehow able to end apartheid. Why should we not hold Israel to the same standard?

To my knowledge, the ANC's armed branch (Mkhonto we Sizwe) used to attack military bases, police stations, government buildings or infrastructures. I don't think the MwS ever targeted normal white South Africans and highly doubt its "atrocities" were comparable to those of Hamas. I'm sure there are posters here that can throw some light on this question. In any case, I doubt the MwS military struggle was a decisive factor contributing to the end of apartheid in South Africa.

I mostly agree with the rest of your post. I have read a certain article in Times of Israel about how Israeli governments propped up the Muslim Brotherhood and the groups that later formed Hamas, in order to counterweight the PLO, back in late 1970s and early 1980s. Reportedly Netanyahu told to the Likud MKs (at a meeting of the parliamentary group held in 2019, according to Haaretz) that bolsteting and funding Hamas was part of their strategy to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state.

The question is that slaughtering civilians delegitimizes any Hamas pretense to lead the Palestinian struggle against the occupation and the system of legal discrimination known as apartheid.

On a separate note, a former board member of israel's most prominent human rights group was held captive by Hamas during the October 7 raid

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-tangled-grief-of-israels-anti-occupation-activists

 One of the unprecedented aspects of the current situation is the number of Israelis taken hostage by Hamas. Among them is Vivian Silver, a seventy-four-year-old Canadian-Israeli peace activist and a former member of the B’Tselem board.

Regardless of whether some pro-Israel champions here would claim otherwise, the labour of B'Tselem members documenting the occupation and releasing their groundbreaking "This Is Apartheid" report is unvaluable

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

Technically correct, but "Israel is only committing war crimes and what looks like ethnic cleansing" still refelction a terrible set of decisions.

[It’s so Joever]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

[OSR stands with Israel]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

[It’s so Joever]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

Almost certainly.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

The destruction of WW2 led to the establishment of the Geneva Conventions.

Israel has enough of a force overmatch that they can afford to follow every one of the rules established therein.

[CookieDamage]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

Do y'all know what a genocide is?? Cuz it isn't civilian casualties and that's it

[Horus]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

Undoubtedly.

[NOVA Green]

This thread is useless. And it's the same people

Well tbf there are some of us that are attempting to keep it on track by primarily focusing on contemporary events rather than rehashing and relitigating all of the various events over the past (100) years.

Sure it is important to have some historical context when discussing the current "Israeli-Gaza War", as this thread was originally named, but yes way too often many posters here:

1.) Have an emotional investment which prevents critical thinking and discourse;

2.) Have their own pet "axes to grind", frequently regurgitations of their musings on various other International General Discussion (IGD) threads;

3.) Can't agree to disagree and shelve the broader Israeli-Palestinian discussion here and instead discuss contemporary events and recent history of this particular conflict,  and move items such as the context of the foundation of Israel and associated historical Palestinian grievances, over to the other thread(s) which were meant for such conversations.

Current reality is that we are talking about two actors, the Israeli State and Hamas, which effectively have been at war for a couple decades, albeit frequently a frozen conflict, with little military exchanges occurring from either side at various periods, and intense escalations at other times.

It is understandable that the initial reactions to what we witnessed following the Hamas assault on Israel, including atrocities against civilian populations, as well as the subsequent Israeli air strikes in Gaza, which have also caused needless civilian casualties (Albeit not intentional), can frequently trigger emotional responses, and cause generally well intentioned posters to s**tpost, but yeah generally agree about how certain posters tend to be a bit more prone to Threadjacking than others.

Their names will rename anonymous to protect the innocent.   

Absolutely--- I agree 100% with NOVA, in that 50% of the posts made on this thread since you posted reinforce the very point you were attempting to make.

That being said, I'm surprised you have been so reticent as not to mention a story just posted some 30 minutes ago on the NYT about Israeli military intentions regarding Gaza, considering your pretty solid posting history.

Regardless, since I beat you to the punch, here are a few small snippets.

The Israeli military is preparing to invade the Gaza Strip in the coming days with tens of thousands of soldiers ordered to capture Gaza City and destroy the enclave’s current leadership, according to three senior Israeli military officers who outlined unclassified details about the plan.

"The military has not yet formally announced that it will invade Gaza, though it has confirmed that reconnaissance teams briefly entered the strip on Friday and that Israeli troops were increasing their “readiness” for a ground war.

Tens of thousands of Hamas gunmen are thought to have entrenched themselves inside hundreds of miles of underground tunnels and bunkers beneath Gaza City and the surrounding parts of northern Gaza. Israeli military leaders expect that Hamas will attempt to impede their progress by blowing up some of those tunnels as Israelis advance above them, and by exploding roadside bombs and booby-trapping buildings.

Hamas also plans to ambush Israeli forces from behind by emerging suddenly from hidden tunnel openings dotted across northern Gaza, according to a Hamas officer who was not authorized to speak to the news media."

"The invasion was initially planned for the weekend, but was delayed by a few days at least in part because of cloudy conditions that would have made it harder for Israeli pilots and drone operators to provide ground forces with air cover, the officers said."

"Their goal will be “the rout of Hamas and the elimination of its leaders after the slaughter they perpetrated,” Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, the chief spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, said on Saturday.

“This organization will not rule Gaza militarily and politically,” Admiral Hagari added."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-invasion.html

Take that scoop NOVA GREEN!!!

[Ferguson97]

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

... Yes, of course we did.

War crimes have been committed by every side in every single war throughout history. 

You have the most black and white view of the world I've ever seen from an adult. It's almost comical.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

... Yes, of course we did.

War crimes have been committed by every side in every single war throughout history. 

You have the most black and white view of the world I've ever seen from an adult. It's almost comical.

That is not my point though. I am asking this because the reason many posters are posting this about Israel is because they dont think Israel should invade Gaza and think the US should cut of support for them .

So I will ask again, if Israel should not invade or bomb Gaza what should they do to destroy Hamas.

[Ferguson97]

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

... Yes, of course we did.

War crimes have been committed by every side in every single war throughout history. 

You have the most black and white view of the world I've ever seen from an adult. It's almost comical.

That is not my point though. I am asking this because the reason many posters are posting this about Israel is because they dont think Israel should invade Gaza and think the US should cut of support for them .

So I will ask again, if Israel should not invade or bomb Gaza what should they do to destroy Hamas.

You're doing that thing again where you move the goal posts in the middle of a discussion. First the war crimes aren't happening, and now they're a necessary evil.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

cutting off aid to Israel is not wise for US interests.

[Middle-aged Europe]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

Undoubtedly.

The so-called Malmedy massacre on December 17, 1944 - in which at least 84 American POWs who had surrendered during the Battle of the Bulge were killed by the Waffen-SS - led to many U.S. Army combat units adopting an unofficial policy of summarily executing SS members when captured. In some case this was extended to regular Wehrmacht soldiers, most notably in the Chenogne massacre on January 1, 1945.

[It’s so Joever]

cutting off aid to Israel is not wise for US interests.

Right now no given how it would look, but our past decade of allowing our money to flow to the increasingly illiberal and traitorous (I care more about this one tbh) country has also not been in our interests. It’s clear our status quo policy did not work, and Israeli leadership needs to be reminded that they are supposed to be our puppet and not the other way around.