Israel-Gaza war

[Aurelius2]

I have avoided this thread until now, but Haley/Ryan has forced me to jump in. I believe Israel should carry out an operation to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and eliminate them as a political and military force. This is what I believe to be a reasonable, albeit hawkish position. Haley/Ryan's call for ethnic cleansing is out of line, inappropriate, ghoulish, and if Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing, it would face global condemnation.

How does Israel do that? If they do it once they pop up again. Do you want Israel to occupy Gaza forever?

If that is what it takes, yes. Infinitely preferable to the scenario you outline. Israel is in a no-win position: they tried land for peace in Gaza and it clearly failed. This tragically suggests that some sort of indefinite occupation is probably the only acceptable outcome, unless they can manage to sufficiently bribe Egypt to foist Gaza off on them (which is not going to happen, it is pure wishful thinking).

That means hundreds of Israelis dead per year. There is not West Bank solution here because Gaza is so dense: Israel can't even just maintain troops at the edge of cities because Gaza is basically one urban conglameration.

I agree that Egypt won't voluntarily take them which is why Egypt can't be given a choice.

I imagine that trying to force Egypt to take them would likely trigger a regional gang-up war against Israel along the lines of the Six Day War or the Yom Kippur War. Egypt does not want two million refugees who have been radicalized into supporting extreme Islamists, which the Egyptian regime loathes, and who will probably attempt to launch attacks into Israel from Egyptian territory. Forcing Egypt to take them would likely mean another invasion of the Sinai. And Israel no longer has the huge military advantage they had back in the days of those wars. Iran's influence has changed all that.

No, it probably just means a situation along the types that already exist in Lebanon and Syria where Egypt establishes huge refugee camps. Egypt definitely does not want to and cannot fight Israel in a conventional war. Actually, its military advantage is probably bigger today.

Separately, isn't it telling (not in a bad faith way, just in a this is impractical way) that your stance is that "israel can't send them to egypt because egypt wouldn't want to deal with these crazy terrorists" but that Israel should have to govern these people instead?

I am not going to pretend I have a good solution here, but I'm not going to endorse forcing 2 million people out of their homes. I get that I am behind my keyboard thousands of miles from this whole mess, and that many (most?) Israelis will probably feel differently and just desperately want something, anything to stop the terrorist attacks.

I agree it's not ideal. But there is literally no other plausible solution that is not

A. This happens again, and again

B. All Israelis vanish into thin air

C. Thousands of Israelis lose their lives policing Gaza

D. Far worse

I would be tempted to try to foist it off on the UN or some coalition of the willing, tbh. Yes, the UN is hysterically obsessive with their Israel hatred but perhaps they can at least be forced to put their money where their mouth is. I do not expect it would succeed but it could be worth a try. Unlike the West Bank I really do not see any good outcome for Gaza.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I have avoided this thread until now, but Haley/Ryan has forced me to jump in. I believe Israel should carry out an operation to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and eliminate them as a political and military force. This is what I believe to be a reasonable, albeit hawkish position. Haley/Ryan's call for ethnic cleansing is out of line, inappropriate, ghoulish, and if Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing, it would face global condemnation.

How does Israel do that? If they do it once they pop up again. Do you want Israel to occupy Gaza forever?

If that is what it takes, yes. Infinitely preferable to the scenario you outline. Israel is in a no-win position: they tried land for peace in Gaza and it clearly failed. This tragically suggests that some sort of indefinite occupation is probably the only acceptable outcome, unless they can manage to sufficiently bribe Egypt to foist Gaza off on them (which is not going to happen, it is pure wishful thinking).

That means hundreds of Israelis dead per year. There is not West Bank solution here because Gaza is so dense: Israel can't even just maintain troops at the edge of cities because Gaza is basically one urban conglameration.

I agree that Egypt won't voluntarily take them which is why Egypt can't be given a choice.

I imagine that trying to force Egypt to take them would likely trigger a regional gang-up war against Israel along the lines of the Six Day War or the Yom Kippur War. Egypt does not want two million refugees who have been radicalized into supporting extreme Islamists, which the Egyptian regime loathes, and who will probably attempt to launch attacks into Israel from Egyptian territory. Forcing Egypt to take them would likely mean another invasion of the Sinai. And Israel no longer has the huge military advantage they had back in the days of those wars. Iran's influence has changed all that.

No, it probably just means a situation along the types that already exist in Lebanon and Syria where Egypt establishes huge refugee camps. Egypt definitely does not want to and cannot fight Israel in a conventional war. Actually, its military advantage is probably bigger today.

Separately, isn't it telling (not in a bad faith way, just in a this is impractical way) that your stance is that "israel can't send them to egypt because egypt wouldn't want to deal with these crazy terrorists" but that Israel should have to govern these people instead?

I am not going to pretend I have a good solution here, but I'm not going to endorse forcing 2 million people out of their homes. I get that I am behind my keyboard thousands of miles from this whole mess, and that many (most?) Israelis will probably feel differently and just desperately want something, anything to stop the terrorist attacks.

I agree it's not ideal. But there is literally no other plausible solution that is not

A. This happens again, and again

B. All Israelis vanish into thin air

C. Thousands of Israelis lose their lives policing Gaza

D. Far worse

I would be tempted to try to foist it off on the UN or some coalition of the willing, tbh. Yes, the UN is hysterically obsessive with their Israel hatred but perhaps they can at least be forced to put their money where their mouth is. I do not expect it would succeed but it could be worth a try. Unlike the West Bank I really do not see any good outcome for Gaza.

No one would want for the reasons that are the case for Egypt as well. At worst some nations do it but don't actually enforce anything so Hamas keeps launching terror attacks but Israel can't strike back because the UN is there. At best nothing happens.

[Damocles]

Well I hope, every single one of those Palestinians in that hypothetical scenario of yours resist till their dying breath being forced to leave their home to fulfill your deranged genocidal desires

“Wait, why do I hear Julia Boutros in the background?”

[Libertas Vel Mors]

https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1710777795159228886?t=wajpLhMMxHwcSi0A...

At this point I really don't see why Mods aren't letting us have these discussions. If Likud is having this discussion then I think it is worth considering. I am a free speech absolutist, so I do have a much greater tolerance for this kind of stuff even in other fields, but given the circumstances I do think that in the coming days both Israel and certain Western factions may be considering/supporting options like this.

Are you actually out of your fücking mind? Why in Allah's name should genocide and ethnic cleansing EVER be considered an option?

1. I can't answer on the merits due to moderating policy for the latter. I will say for the former that genocide is always wrong because it takes innocent lives unnecessarily.

2. It should be discussed and freely debated because its going to be a major policy discussion in Israel and the West over the following days. Israel cannot allow Hamas to freely exist in the Gaza Strip after this, and it cannot afford to permanently occupy the Gaza Strip. That lives only one realistic option, as I believe many already recognize.

Rot in Jahannam you fücking bastard

Yeah I'm not the one cheering on murderers and savages.

What would you do if an enclave of cartel members (backed by 2 million people who enthusiastically supported the cartel members and molested the bodies of captured American women and American soldiers in the street) bombarded New York 24/7? Would you say "sorry, yeah, nothing the US can do"?

What if the US had given them everything they wanted re: their enclave, and even kicked Americans out of their homes to do so, but those cartel members still used that as an opportunity to spend the next two decades raiding the US, and then escalating their raids to the point of invading the US and slaughtering and raping Americans, under the demand the US give the entire Southwest back to Mexico? Would you still say the same thing?

Well for starters, I wouldn't be supporting fücking genocide, unlike you.

Genocide is immoral and wrong because it kills innocent people. I don't support genocide.

And what the hell do you think "expelling the Gaza strip population" would entail genius?

Demolishing homes and expelling the population to Egypt, like what happened with Germans after WW2. Let Egypt take care of them, pay for the camps etc, so long as they are at least 100 miles from the Israeli border.

And if they refuse or Egypt refuses to take them in then what?

Egypt can't refuse. Once they're past the Egyptian border and Israel is offering to pay for the camps Egypt won't be able to simply let them starve.

And do tell us how you're gonna make them get across the Egyptian border? I'm sure it's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows like you think it's gonna be.

Trucks? It won't be any more deaths than an occupation would be anyway, which is what everyone else is proposing, because every 16+ male is going to be trying to suicide bomb Israelis either way. The question is simply whether this happens once or for the next several decades.

And if they refuse to leave their homes to board Israeli trucks with totally peaceful intentions towards being stranded in Egypt then what? Shoot first, ask questions later?

Just literally force them on? Same way Hamas forced Israelis on to trucks today, or that Germans were moved in 1946 in a much less justified expulsion.

Well I hope every single one of those Palestinians in that hypothetical scenario of yours resists till their dying breath being forced to leave their home to fulfill your deranged genocidal desires

I don't. And I don't have any genocidal desires. I truly hope as few people as possible who are not Hamas members die. But tell me, what alternative solution that does not lead to this ad infinitum, the destruction of Israel, or the deaths of thousands of Israelis policing the Gaza Strip, exists?

[Hnv1]

Har Dov bombarded by Hezbollah. It's expanding.


PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD FOR UPDATES AND MOVE THE DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE

[The Mikado]

It's very similar to the Tet Offensive so far and I suspect the end result-VC/Hamas ceasing to be an effective fighting force-will be the same.

A much darker parallel is to King Philip's War.

Which ended the way Haley/Ryan would like this to end, of course. It's also not the 1680s anymore and we shouldn't pretend this is an acceptable solution.

That said, you're right that King Philip's War is a great example why a numerically and technologically inferior power shouldn't launch a surprise assault on its neighbors and hope that surprise and initiative alone are enough to carry the day.

[Pericles]

Collective punishment of entire populations-Israeli or Palestinians-is bad. FFS.

[Ferguson97]

I don't advocate for any sort of final solution: this would leave the entire West Bank as a continuing problem. It would just move 2 million people from one scrap of desert to another.

And if those 2 million people refuse to move?

Force them, like Germans in 1946?

.... Dear god, are you under the impression that this comparison makes you look like less of an advocate for ethnic cleansing? The forced expulsion of Germans after World War II resulted in over half a million deaths.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Seen a lot of smoke about Lebanon entering the war, not much confirmation but wouldn't surprise me.  Have to imagine there's zero element of surprise and Israel will annihilate them quickly.  Stupid move that will only lead to more death (which of course will be all Israel's fault) but when you're the bad guys you do stupid things.

[NOVA Green]

Genocide is immoral and wrong because it kills innocent people. I don't support genocide.

so reading between the lines here, you obviously support ethnic cleansing

you think that won't kill innocent people??

Yeah, actually. Give the Gazans to Egypt. Pay for the refugee camps even but don't let Gaza continue to exist as a terrorist installation.

And if [when] Egypt says “no, f**k off”?

Give Egypt no choice. Move them past the Egyptian border and Egypt will not be able to say no without sparking an internal revolution.  

You are completely insane.

Right, unlike the people who want a nation of 8 million to spend the next several decades occupying Gaza all so that the people who elected Hamas, who support Hamas, who rape and molest Israelis in the streets, don't have to live in a country of their co-religionists, paid for by the Israeli government.

wtf is this supposed to mean?

Pls cite with sources since this is a whole new allegation from an individual who is sympathetic to Israel within the context of the recent Hamas terrorist assaults.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

I agree it's not ideal. But there is literally no other plausible solution that is not

A. This happens again, and again

B. All white people vanish into thin air

C. Thousands of white people lose their lives policing Gaza

D. Far worse

I made a few select edits to your post. Read it and then tell us you're not advocating ethnic cleansing.

[Aurelius2]

Seen a lot of smoke about Lebanon entering the war, not much confirmation but wouldn't surprise me.  Have to imagine there's zero element of surprise and Israel will annihilate them quickly.  Stupid move that will only lead to more death (which of course will be all Israel's fault) but when you're the bad guys you do stupid things.

One of the Twitter accounts I'm watching (OSINT Defender) is saying that Hezbollah plans to fully enter the conflict if Israel engages in a ground operation in Gaza. Of course, a ground operation in Gaza is necessary to get rid of Hamas and is surely coming. Supposedly the attack on Har Dov in Shebaa Farms is meant as a warning signal along those lines.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710890022914642234

Of course, this is not only a Twitter account, but an American twitter account, so grain of salt.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Genocide is immoral and wrong because it kills innocent people. I don't support genocide.

so reading between the lines here, you obviously support ethnic cleansing

you think that won't kill innocent people??

Yeah, actually. Give the Gazans to Egypt. Pay for the refugee camps even but don't let Gaza continue to exist as a terrorist installation.

And if [when] Egypt says “no, f**k off”?

Give Egypt no choice. Move them past the Egyptian border and Egypt will not be able to say no without sparking an internal revolution.  

You are completely insane.

Right, unlike the people who want a nation of 8 million to spend the next several decades occupying Gaza all so that the people who elected Hamas, who support Hamas, who rape and molest Israelis in the streets, don't have to live in a country of their co-religionists, paid for by the Israeli government.

wtf is this supposed to mean?

Pls cite with sources since this is a whole new allegation from an individual who is sympathetic to Israel within the context of the recent Hamas terrorist assaults.

Sure. I don't want to post videos but there are several online.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/george-monastiriakos-there-is-no-moral-equivalence-between-israel-and-hamas

An Israeli woman with bloodstained pants, likely evidence that she was raped, being transported in the trunk of a jeep. One truck with an Israeli woman’s mutilated body paraded naked through the streets of Gaza, and another filled with Israeli women and children abducted as hostages.

[Ferguson97]

I don't. And I don't have any genocidal desires. I truly hope as few people as possible who are not Hamas members die. But tell me, what alternative solution that does not lead to this ad infinitum, the destruction of Israel, or the deaths of thousands of Israelis policing the Gaza Strip, exists?

A final solution, if you will.

Your whole "we have to ethnically cleanse them before they ethnically cleanse us, it's the only way, they forced our hand, it's them or us" shtick is genuinely one of the, if not the most reprehensible thing I've seen on all of Atlas.

Just really bleak sh-t.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I don't. And I don't have any genocidal desires. I truly hope as few people as possible who are not Hamas members die. But tell me, what alternative solution that does not lead to this ad infinitum, the destruction of Israel, or the deaths of thousands of Israelis policing the Gaza Strip, exists?

A final solution, if you will.

Your whole "we have to ethnically cleanse them before they ethnically cleanse us, it's the only way, they forced our hand, it's them or us" shtick is genuinely one of the, if not the most reprehensible thing I've seen on all of Atlas.

Just really bleak sh-t.

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Separately, images of at least some of the kidnapped. As you can see, the victims are mostly women:







There are also videos of captured children in the Strip, not listed here, so there are at least some not included here.

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/DaltonLThomas/status/1710883567335833719

[soundchaser]

I mean, even aside from the ethnic cleansing implications, anyone who thinks “start a war with Egypt” is a legitimate solution to this crisis is clearly not worth taking seriously.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I don't. And I don't have any genocidal desires. I truly hope as few people as possible who are not Hamas members die. But tell me, what alternative solution that does not lead to this ad infinitum, the destruction of Israel, or the deaths of thousands of Israelis policing the Gaza Strip, exists?

A final solution, if you will.

Your whole "we have to ethnically cleanse them before they ethnically cleanse us, it's the only way, they forced our hand, it's them or us" shtick is genuinely one of the, if not the most reprehensible thing I've seen on all of Atlas.

Just really bleak sh-t.

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

[Ferguson97]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

I mean yeah, its also about avoiding decades of war. Do you forget what you said? You said I supported resettlement because I wanted to avoid ethnic cleansing of Israelis: my response was that I also cared about war, terrorism, and bloodshed.

[Ferguson97]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

I mean yeah, its also about avoiding decades of war. Do you forget what you said? You said I supported resettlement because I wanted to avoid ethnic cleansing of Israelis: my response was that I thought war, terrorism, and bloodshed even more important direct concerns.

Just to be absolutely clear, you are supporting ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to avoid decades of war and an ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Yes or no? Because you view ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as the lesser of two evils?

[Anti-Trump Truth Socialite JD Vance Enjoying Juror]

Maybe we can get a two-for-one special with the bans here and get rid of Mattrose and Haley/Ryan at the same time. I assume that calling for genocide is a violation of TOS.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

I mean yeah, its also about avoiding decades of war. Do you forget what you said? You said I supported resettlement because I wanted to avoid ethnic cleansing of Israelis: my response was that I thought war, terrorism, and bloodshed even more important direct concerns.

Just to be absolutely clear, you are supporting ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to avoid decades of war and an ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Yes or no? Because you view ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as the lesser of two evils?

No, I don't support ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. My proposal is limited to the Gaza Strip, because its unique location and role in terrorism make its continued presence untenable. "Cleansing" is also the wrong word here: it implies that the goal is to "clean" land for some kind of eliminationist purpose, which I would never support. Rather, I support a population transfer/relocation of a specific population concentration to avoid the risk of further conflict. For an analogy, consider how Israel did the same with its own citizens in both 2005, when withdrawing from Gaza, and in 1977, when leaving the Sinai.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Maybe we can get a two-for-one special with the bans here and get rid of Mattrose and Haley/Ryan at the same time. I assume that calling for genocide is a violation of TOS.

Genocide would be very bad and immoral: all humans have an intrinsic right to life and genocide definitionally kills innocents.