Israel-Gaza war

[It’s so Joever]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

Neither did Timothy McVeigh. What an incredible standard we hold "the world's most humane army"

I'm not taking advice about human rights from a Russian.  You guys conducted the first holocaust in 1932-33 when you starved between 4-10 million civilians in Ukraine.  This was 13 years after the programs that killed hundreds of thousands of Jews.  You guys literally inspired Mosollini and Hitler.  They were both very impressed by Lenin's introduction of authoritarianism into Revolutionary Marxism.   

I suggest Russians keep their mouths shut while they conduct their planned attack on Ukraine this winter.  They've finally managed to stop the bleeding, but we all know how things can deteriorate for them when weapons start flowing-in from Israel. 

Can you not do the whole collective guilt thing?

[Hollywood]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

Neither did Timothy McVeigh. What an incredible standard we hold "the world's most humane army"

I'm not taking advice about human rights from a Russian.  You guys conducted the first holocaust in 1932-33 when you starved between 4-10 million civilians in Ukraine.  This was 13 years after the programs that killed hundreds of thousands of Jews.  You guys literally inspired Mosollini and Hitler.  They were both very impressed by Lenin's introduction of authoritarianism into Revolutionary Marxism.   

I suggest Russians keep their mouths shut while they conduct their planned attack on Ukraine this winter.  They've finally managed to stop the bleeding, but we all know how things can deteriorate for them when weapons start flowing-in from Israel. 

Can you not do the whole collective guilt thing?

Why?  Is it making you uncomfortable?  Are you calling for a ceasefire?  I rather enjoy learning about the Russian ideologies that inspired Hitler's viewpoint of the world.  I appreciate Russians defeating Hitler.  They should receive collective praise.  And they should also be confronted with the role the country played by destabilizing Germany. 

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

I wasn't talking about Americans because Hamas is clearly operating under the assumption that America will always side with Israel no matter what. There are Americans who would still be trying to make excuses for them even if they dropped a nuke on Gaza. Their goal was to create a constant gap between the quietly pro-Israeli Arab regimes and their overwhelmingly anti-Israeli populations and in that they've achieved overwhelming success.

There has basically never been a version of this conflict before 2023 with any support for Israel from any Arab governments and this time around you have multiple Arab governments cheerfully shooting down Houthi rockets. Over the past ten years, you've seen these go from loudly pro-Palestine to quietly pro-Israel, while populations do effectively nothing.

"Populations doing effectively nothing"

https://twitter.com/IranObserver0/status/1721145392195145748

Hamas is heightening the contradictions as Mao would say. If you told someone in 2003 on the eve of the Iraq War invasion that the Muslim Brotherhood would replace the pro-US/Israeli military regime in a decade and that the Taliban would be stronger than ever in two decades they'd look at you like you were crazy.

I think those tended to ask aid vs. weapons; "should we send ~whatever~ to Israel" polls very consistently in the mid-70s, at the same place as support for the Israeli state. 30 years ago this was in the 40s; this is where my observation that "Israel only won the propaganda war in the 21st century" comes from. All of this support is very new, and it comes from the period when the news media has decided to focus on "atrocities". All the evidence is that this focus has been basically counterproductive for the Palestinian cause.

Meanwhile in reality:

"The poll revealed that 66 percent of voters "strongly agree" or "somewhat agree" that "the U.S. should call for a ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza. The U.S. should leverage its close diplomatic relationship with Israel to prevent further violence and civilian deaths."

According to the poll, 56 percent of Republicans, 80 percent of Democrats, and 57 percent of independents back the call for a ceasefire."

So on your side we have the generic "Israel vs Palestine" poll and on my side we have evidence that Americans, even including Republicans, are more enthusiastic for diplomatic intervention than for military support.

As already mentioned, there's a difference between a vague support for Israel's right to exist and the overwhelming support on every issue necessary to guarantee Israel's continued superiority. I'd guess there are plenty of people who would call themselves "pro-Israel" but fall into the Tucker Carlson-Thomas Massie-MTG camp of "they can do what they want but I don't want to give them my money or military support" which is functionally far less pro-Israel than whatever Biden thinks he's doing.

You know, I've been expecting evangelicals to die off for 15 years, and I've been expecting the GOP to die off, and it keeps not happening. (The actual trend among Zoomers is that they consume far less news; support for Israel being lower correlates with every political position being lower). The world changes and it's just not true that the opinions of the youth are where any nation goes tomorrow. This should be particularly obvious in the US, where you occasionally see really visible youth skews in certain directions (as you did in the 1960s and 2000s) and then the country reliably fails to go down those paths.

Evangelical dominance peaked somewhere between Reagan and Bush. Trump didn't win because evangelicals suddenly made a comeback, he won because he picked up new voters in the form of independents from key swing states. The "Democrat demographic majority" failed not because the demographic projections were wrong but because Republicans made inroads in groups Democrats used to dominate overwhelmingly.

You know, except when they obliterated the PFLP and all the decades they controlled the West Bank and Gaza, and for that matter southern Lebanon. For a while after 1994 they were constrained by pressure from the West forcing them into a 'peace process' -- and a huge fraction of the Israeli electorate supported it too, between 1999-2001 an outright majority -- but the thing that's fundamentally changed after 10/7 is that it looks like that pressure is going away, and the US/UK/Germany/France are no longer interested in propping up the Palestinian side. My guess is that within 4-5 years Hamas will become as incapable of challenging Israeli power as the PFLP. (It's funny to see that you've moved past your predictions of Hezbollah attacking as it's become really clear, undeniable even to you, that they just don't have the strength.)

I suppose you can be optimistic if you just pretend nothing happened between 2001 and 2023. Particularly a certain war in 2006 where the IDF went in with bombastic threats and promises of annihilation and wound up withdrawing with its tail between its legs.

Not sure what you're talking about with regards to Hezbollah "not having the strength to attack" when they've been attacking Israel since October 8th. They started with ATGMs and have since climbed the escalation ladder: rocket artillery strikes a week later, drone bombs before Nasrallah's speech and most recently high yield ballistic missiles. They've already demonstrated the capability to overwhelm Israeli missile defense with impunity:

https://twitter.com/SprinterX99880/status/1721269296121123033

Nah. It's "ceasefire now if pressure from the progressive nexus succeeds" (spoiler: it won't) or "obliterate Hamas, basically everyone celebrates the decision in 5 years". (And the first option is basically "ceasefire now, next Republican Administration forces you to attack Gaza and obliterate Hamas anyway"; as I've been saying in the other thread part of the Israeli challenge over the next decade is likely to be the existence of Western governments which are more anti-Palestinian than they are. Right now this is only true in Czechia and Austria, which don't matter, but there's every reason to think the attitude spreads as "conflict with Muslim minorities" becomes a larger part of every Western culture.)

At best they'll obliterate Hamas the way America obliterated the Taliban. At worst they'll obliterate Hamas the way the IDF obliterated Hezbollah in 2006. In neither case will they achieve any meaningful strategic goals and in both it's almost certain that almost none of the hostages will be rescued. If you think they'll somehow win easily just because they'll be super brutal and don't care about civilian casualties then you should look at Stalingrad, Monte Cassino and Grozny to see how well that sort of thinking worked out. If anything the act of turning a city into rubble only makes finding tunnel entrances and clearing the streets more difficult, not less.

It's pretty telling that even literal Navy SEALs recognize that it isn't just a matter of killing people and flattening buildings.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

Neither did Timothy McVeigh. What an incredible standard we hold "the world's most humane army"

I'm not taking advice about human rights from a Russian.  You guys conducted the first holocaust in 1932-33 when you starved between 4-10 million civilians in Ukraine.  This was 13 years after the programs that killed hundreds of thousands of Jews.  You guys literally inspired Mosollini and Hitler.  They were both very impressed by Lenin's introduction of authoritarianism into Revolutionary Marxism.  

I suggest Russians keep their mouths shut while they conduct their planned attack on Ukraine this winter.  They've finally managed to stop the bleeding, but we all know how things can deteriorate for them when weapons start flowing-in from Israel.  

A prescient piece written in the aftermath of the Spanish American War:

During the last year the public has been familiarized with descriptions of Spain and of Spanish methods of doing things until the name of Spain has become a symbol for a certain well-defined set of notions and policies. On the other hand, the name of the United States has always been, for all of us, a symbol for a state of things, a set of ideas and traditions, a group of views about social and political affairs. Spain was the first, for a long time the greatest, of the modern imperialistic states. The United States, by its historical origin, its traditions, and its principles, is the chief representative of the revolt and reaction against that kind of a state. I intend to show that, by the line of action now proposed to us, which we call expansion and imperialism, we are throwing away some of the most important elements of the American symbol and are adopting some of the most important elements of the Spanish symbol. We have beaten Spain in a military conflict, but we are submitting to be conquered by her on the field of ideas and policies. Expansionism and imperialism are nothing but the old philosophies of national prosperity which have brought Spain to where she now is. Those philosophies appeal to national vanity and national cupidity. They are seductive, especially upon the first view and the most superficial judgment, and therefore it cannot be denied that they are very strong for popular effect. They are delusions, and they will lead us to ruin unless we are hard-headed enough to resist them.

The Allies triumphed over Hitler on the battlefield but his ideals of conquest, the law of the strongest, support for domination over "inferior peoples" and collective punishment took over the minds of the Zionists.

Here's a shocking fact: any individual Jew is no more responsible for the crimes of Netanyahu than any given Russian is responsible for the crimes of Putin or Stalin.  For all the complaining about human shields the Zionists always use the entire diaspora as a human shield to protect themselves from accountability for their crimes. The Israeli government slaughters innocents and then ordinary people with no power or responsibility pay the price, then they use the still warm bodies as justification for ever greater brutality. They kill in our name, we get killed in response, and then they expect us to pledge our undying loyalty in exchange for the illusion of safety.

An enormous number of both Russians and Jews oppose those who claim to speak on our behalf and have fought tirelessly for basic rights of our so-called "enemies" consistently despite great hardship. In the face of imprisonment, torture or death so many choose to nevertheless fight injustice. In comparison, some ignorant bigoted slander from Team Hasbara is nothing.

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile in the real world, as opposed to the "Atlas Debate Society...

Israel has once again completely strangled internet connectivity to Gaza, while simultaneously carrying out some of their fiercest bombardments yet...

The Israeli military announced that its forces had fully encircled Gaza City and were carrying out “a significant operation” in the Gaza Strip late Sunday, as the entire enclave was plunged into the same kind of widespread communications blackout that cut it off from the world during Israel’s initial ground invasion 10 days ago.

Journalists’ reports were limited by the blackout, but the BBC said one of its Gaza reporters thought the night had brought “the most intense airstrikes since the beginning of the war,” which it said were largely focused in northwest Gaza.

And Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency, based in the West Bank, reported “violent explosions and an unprecedented bombardment by Israeli aircraft and warships,” saying the raids targeted the vicinities of several hospitals and had killed and injured dozens of people.

Admiral Hagari said that the operation on Sunday night was searching for senior Hamas commanders. Earlier in the day, the Israeli military had accused Hamas of using two hospitals in northern Gaza, Sheikh Hamad and Indonesian hospitals, as cover for its operational centers. The claim could not immediately be verified.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/05/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news

[NOVA Green]

US Taxpayers dollars should definitely 100% not be going to provide massive numbers of assault rifles to Israeli Right-Wing / Settler populations on the West Bank:

An Israeli government request for 24,000 assault rifles from the United States is drawing scrutiny from American lawmakers and some State Department officials who fear the weapons might end up in the hands of settlers and civilian militias trying to force Palestinians from land in the West Bank, where violence has been surging, U.S. officials say.

The three proposed tranches of semiautomatic and automatic rifles are valued at $34 million and are being ordered directly from American gunmakers, but they require State Department approval and congressional notification. Israel says the rifles would be used by the national police force, but has also indicated that they could be given to civilians, people familiar with the weapons orders told The New York Times.

The Israeli police are seeking to bolster their weapons arsenal after officials pledged to supply thousands of weapons to Israeli civilians in at least 1,000 towns and cities, including Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. About 500,000 Israelis have moved to settlements there over many years, which, along with military checkpoints, fences and other measures of the Israeli government occupation, keep the area’s 2.7 million Palestinians living in separate small enclaves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/israel-us-weapons-west-bank.html

[EastwoodS]

Hamas has essentially screwed there people with the October 7th Massacre, because they woke-up every Jew across party lines.  Even if Biden wanted to stop Israel, he can't afford to piss away the influence, money and support from the Jewish communities around the country.  The Democrats have been boxed-in to a corner, because even the mere request that Israel cease-firing is even offending  the left-wing Jews.  You'll get kicked-out of Synagogue for mentioning it.  

We aren't playing game anymore.  It's good to see it actually happen.  I think it's also time for Israel to send the iron dome system to Ukraine, because we need to exert pressure on Russia.  I'm all about killing our mutual enemies.  If Bibi makes the call for reinforcements, Jewish troops trained by the American armed forces will be sent to fill the gaps.  Some are already on the way.  We'll take it to the end.      

I’ve been saying this about the Democratic coalition forever; it was bound to collapse because all the colors and subcoaltions within their giant tent are not compatible at coexistence with each other. At least the Republicans base, though smaller, is 85%+ homogeneous. They all believe the exact same thing anymore.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Another day, another dead terrorist.



Israel are still fully committed to their eradication of Hamas in Gaza City.

Video documentary of the October 7 attacks from Hamas footage.

October 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN6GUrPKvi4

Hamas have made a huge mistake here with the atrocious nature of their attack against innocent civilians.

A story of a young Israeli woman gunned down on 7 October.

Gaia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWOqNnLsjN8

Just the most peaceful people who have had their lives torn apart by Hamas terrorists.

These stories are unforgettable.

[CumbrianLefty]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

Lmao no. More like the msm is going from extremely pro Israel to moderately pro Israel, if that.

Meanwhile Israeli ministers are calling for nuclear war.

To be strictly accurate, one minister.

Though appearing to sack them, whilst not doing so in reality, is typical Bibi cakeism.

[CumbrianLefty]

Why are you starting all these, what's wrong with posting this in the megathread?

[CumbrianLefty]

There is already a thread for this.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.3450

You said the same thing in there as well, so you don't need a new thread to give yourself more attention.

That's in another forum, which is not about U.S. politics. This is.

I think its OK for them to start this thread, no so sure about some others though.

[NYSforKennedy2024]

Another day, another dead terrorist.



Israel are still fully committed to their eradication of Hamas in Gaza City.

Video documentary of the October 7 attacks from Hamas footage.

October 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN6GUrPKvi4

Hamas have made a huge mistake here with the atrocious nature of their attack against innocent civilians.

A story of a young Israeli woman gunned down on 7 October.

Gaia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWOqNnLsjN8

Just the most peaceful people who have had their lives torn apart by Hamas terrorists.

These stories are unforgettable.

Common Israel W

[Aurelius2]

The West's favorite Palestinian activist, Ahed Tamimi, was just arrested for calls to mass slaughter like this one:

“We will slaughter you and you will say that what Hitler did to you was a joke, we will drink your blood and eat your skulls. Come on, we’re waiting for you,” she wrote.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-protest-icon-ahed-tamimi-arrested-for-calling-to-slaughter-settlers/

Vosem is entirely correct about the nature of this movement.

[Silent Hunter]

What a charming woman. /s

[Meclazine for Israel]

Ohio class submarine spotted in Suez Canal.


US military deploys nuclear-powered submarine in Middle East (FoxNews)

For any military enthusiasts, these are the crème de la crème of submarines.

170m long, 150 Tomahawk Cruise missiles on board and an undisclosed number of nuclear warheads. These things are simply next level instruments of war, a one-third part of the 'Dr Strangelove' suite of nuclear deterrents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

The US rarely confirms the presence of their nuclear subs, but it is thought between 2-4 travel with each Carrier Strike group.

Looks like they are travelling to the Straight of Hormuz. I can't imagine using them to shoot down drones from Yemeni Houthi's.

I went and watched the news on BBC. I have seen some sad and dreary crap in my life, but never anything as lifeless and hopelessly mundane as their coverage.

Channel 4 is starting to turn pro-Palestinian. They give the Israeli military guys a hard time  but no intelligent questions.

Al-Jazeera was there a month ago. I saw a report on their channel about Hamas having similarities to BLM in the USA?

ABC Australia are anti-Israeli and have been from day 1.

I just want the scientific facts of what is happening. The IDF are publishing some interesting developments, but the Western media are not publishing it or researching their news.

This must have occurred with the Ukraine war where it gets hard to find out what is going on.

[Comrade Funk]

Ohio class submarine spotted in Suez Canal.


US military deploys nuclear-powered submarine in Middle East (FoxNews)

For any military enthusiasts, these are the crème de la crème of submarines.

170m long, 150 Tomahawk Cruise missiles on board and an undisclosed number of nuclear warheads. These things are simply next level instruments of war, a one-third part of the 'Dr Strangelove' suite of nuclear deterrents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

The US rarely confirms the presence of their nuclear subs, but it is thought between 2-4 travel with each Carrier Strike group.

Looks like they are travelling to the Straight of Hormuz. I can't imagine using them to shoot down drones from Yemeni Houthi's.

I went and watched the news on BBC. I have seen some sad and dreary crap in my life, but never anything as lifeless and hopelessly mundane as their coverage.

Channel 4 is starting to turn pro-Palestinian. They give the Israeli military guys a hard time  but no intelligent questions.

Al-Jazeera was there a month ago. I saw a report on their channel about Hamas having similarities to BLM in the USA?

ABC Australia are anti-Israeli and have been from day 1.

I just want the scientific facts of what is happening. The IDF are publishing some interesting developments, but the Western media are not publishing it or researching their news.

This must have occurred with the Ukraine war where it gets hard to find out what is going on.

The media doesn't owe you good PR. 7,000+ civilians have died and you expect no hard questions? A ing minister proposed nuking Gaza and you want no pushback? That's your barometer of being "pro-Palestine?"

[Horus]

Ohio class submarine spotted in Suez Canal.


US military deploys nuclear-powered submarine in Middle East (FoxNews)

For any military enthusiasts, these are the crème de la crème of submarines.

170m long, 150 Tomahawk Cruise missiles on board and an undisclosed number of nuclear warheads. These things are simply next level instruments of war, a one-third part of the 'Dr Strangelove' suite of nuclear deterrents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

The US rarely confirms the presence of their nuclear subs, but it is thought between 2-4 travel with each Carrier Strike group.

Looks like they are travelling to the Straight of Hormuz. I can't imagine using them to shoot down drones from Yemeni Houthi's.

I went and watched the news on BBC. I have seen some sad and dreary crap in my life, but never anything as lifeless and hopelessly mundane as their coverage.

Channel 4 is starting to turn pro-Palestinian. They give the Israeli military guys a hard time  but no intelligent questions.

Al-Jazeera was there a month ago. I saw a report on their channel about Hamas having similarities to BLM in the USA?

ABC Australia are anti-Israeli and have been from day 1.

I just want the scientific facts of what is happening. The IDF are publishing some interesting developments, but the Western media are not publishing it or researching their news.

This must have occurred with the Ukraine war where it gets hard to find out what is going on.

You're such a victim.

[JohnCA246]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

[Vosem]

The media doesn't owe you good PR. 7,000+ civilians have died and you expect no hard questions? A ing minister proposed nuking Gaza and you want no pushback? That's your barometer of being "pro-Palestine?"

The questions expected are "how does this contribute to defeating Hamas?", not some bizarre narrative where Gaza is being bombed for the lulz and the context of the war is never invoked. The actual questions that are being asked are along the lines of "when will you stop beating your wife bombing children?"; they're being asked either by profoundly ignorant people or in profoundly bad faith.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

Honest question, is Israel planning to occupy and replace Hamas as the government of Gaza with something
or leave them in place after the operation?

They have no good solution to this problem because they don't want a government that is strong/stable enough that they might actually have to sit down at the negotiating table with them, but as is now clear, a terror militia with a government bureaucracy attached to it isn't an acceptable longterm arrangement.

Hamas has received funding and tacit support from Israel on multiple occasions for reasons analogous to backing a MAGA Republican in a primary on the grounds they'll be an easier candidate to beat in November.

[Horus]

Had no idea the settlers were also forcing out the ancient Armenian population. Just no shame.

https://twitter.com/syriahay/status/1721246182515917027?t=IJaYEU0Xup750-SvtjvnJQ...

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1721594696084984270



~~

Anyway, in other news, Saudi Arabian state media reporting that Hamas's headquarters is under Al-Shifa hospital:

https://twitter.com/ShehabAgency/status/1721574208017219906

[JohnCA246]

Hamas is terrible. Will Israel invade and replace or just shell and forget about it. This really sounds like Bill Clinton tactics. If something is an existential threat take them out and replace. Can't just leave regimes like Taliban/Al Qaeda, Tojo Japan, Hitler in place. If this operation is to "eliminate Hamas" why doesnt Hamas just call it a day and wait for Israeli troops to leave? Who is responsible for rooting out Hamas once Israeli troops leave if all civil institutions remain operated by Hamas.

[Vosem]

Hamas is terrible. Will Israel invade and replace or just shell and forget about it. This really sounds like Bill Clinton tactics. If something is an existential threat take them out and replace. Can't just leave regimes like Taliban/Al Qaeda, Tojo Japan, Hitler in place. If this operation is to "eliminate Hamas" why doesnt Hamas just call it a day and wait for Israeli troops to leave? Who is responsible for rooting out Hamas once Israeli troops leave if all civil institutions remain operated by Hamas.

A great question and there's no clear answer. There have been international discussions about a handoff from Israel to a peacekeeping force with representatives from other Arab countries authorized to govern only the West Bank, but I don't think there have been any clear conclusions reached. Right now the plan presumably is to reestablish Israeli occupation, but it's not clear whether the international community, or Israel's allies specifically, or the Israeli electorate, are thinking of that as something which might outlast the current state of war.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1721594696084984270

Considering the HaKirya is literally in a residential TelAviv neighborhood next to schools, malls, highways, etc this point has never really made much sense to me. We're not even talking about the whole Gaza Strip anymore, we're talking about 1/3rd of it? Probably something like 100x more dense? Any talk of 'human shields' or any other nonsense is just pointless smoke and mirrors by the IDF to do what it does best: bye-bye civilians.