Israel General Discussion: Annus Horribilis

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

It's official, the reforms have been delayed as of 3 minutes ago,

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/03/27/world/israel-protests-netanyahu

Although if Otzma gets their little national guard as a permanent fixture and we still get a watered down overhaul down the line, that would imo be almost worst... Hopefully Israeli's won't let down the pressure.

Also funny (troubling?) to look at the pro-government protests and spot all the literal Kahanist gear and shirts. They aren't being subtle about it at all.

[lfromnj]

I think one key reform is remove all justices from the commission .

[Sol]

Kudos to the Israeli people. An awe-inspiring show a strength by civil society that I hope will serve as an example for all countries where democracy and the rule of law are under attack. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Bibi and his whole authoritarian ethnonationalist political project.

It's good to see, but I would absolutely not hold my breath on the bold. If it was meaningfully under threat we would have had powerful anti-Zionist protests like these for a while.

[Хahar 🤔]

The interesting thing about Israel is that while the Netanyahu coalition has the allegiance of half the electorate, more or less, much of that electorate does not participate in Israeli civil society, which is to say that a clear majority of that society is opposed to him. It's not just that the government is trying to radically transform society with the barest popular mandate—the Kahanist militia that the government intends to create is obviously totally incompatible with existing Israeli society—it's that it's doing so without the acquiescence of, really, any of the productive sector of society.

[lfromnj]

The interesting thing about Israel is that while the Netanyahu coalition has the allegiance of half the electorate, more or less, much of that electorate does not participate in Israeli civil society, which is to say that a clear majority of that society is opposed to him. It's not just that the government is trying to radically transform society with the barest popular mandate—the Kahanist militia that the government intends to create is obviously totally incompatible with existing Israeli society—it's that it's doing so without the acquiescence of, really, any of the productive sector of society.

I assume a lot of the military resistance stems from the factor that a lot of Haredi avoid the draft .

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Those expressing confusion as to why these particular reforms are sparking so much outrage would, I think, do well to keep two things in mind:

1. The stated reason why the coalition wants this is part of what's so inappropriate here. Even Trump, whose judicial appointments were more unapologetically geared towards obtaining particular policy results than any other President since FDR, contented himself with appointing SCOTUS justices who were solid on overturning Roe. The equivalent to this would have been if they had instead been appointed for being solid on stopping the steal (which, as it turns out, precisely zero out of nine were, and the two who came closest weren't even ones he had appointed).
2. Actions can be out-of-bounds or extreme within particular political systems even if they aren't objectively immoral or antidemocratic. Mexico puts "SUFRAGIO EFECTIVO. NO REELECCIÓN." as a valediction at the end of completely unrelated legislation, and impeachments in the United States tend to be perceived as Congressional power grabs, but nobody thinks that reelecting officeholders or having the legislature scrutinize and remove the executive is some kind of massive violation in countries whose histories and political cultures traditionally allow for those things.

[Comrade Funk]

This "delay" is bullsh**t

[America Needs R'hllor]

Otzma agree to postpone the legislation in exchange for Ben Gvir getting a private militia.

 that. I’m heading out to protest.

I went to protest today but left too early, before Bibi's announcement That's what happens when you don't have any major protests in walkable distance I guess.

But this isn't close to over - I'll be going whendever I can until the legislation is stopped and Otzma's militia is cancelled

[Antonio the Sixth]

I hope to God the Israeli people aren't demobilizing. This is a delaying tactic by Netanyahu, and the formation of a f**king far-right paramilitary is a more fundamental threat to Israeli democracy than anything that's been proposed so far. Nobody should give an inch here. The country needs to remain paralyzed until and unless Bibi fully backs down.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Yeah my issue with the current system is without a written constitution, how do you stop the judiciary from basically just interpreting the law however they really want . So some reform I think has to be made , and maybe yes this is a bad reform given the circumstances in Israel but I also think a judiciary should also have checks placed on it .

Anybody who thinks a constitution prevents this does not have a very good understanding of US jurisprudence.

[Logical]

The interesting thing about Israel is that while the Netanyahu coalition has the allegiance of half the electorate, more or less, much of that electorate does not participate in Israeli civil society, which is to say that a clear majority of that society is opposed to him. It's not just that the government is trying to radically transform society with the barest popular mandate—the Kahanist militia that the government intends to create is obviously totally incompatible with existing Israeli society—it's that it's doing so without the acquiescence of, really, any of the productive sector of society.

And it will only get worse. The Haredim are predicted to make up a fifth of the Israeli population by 2040 and a third by 2065 thanks to their insanely high birth rate. Imagine a third of the population that does not pay taxes, participate in the labor market or serve in the armed forces but demands the productive parts of the nation live according their rules and fund their lifestyles. Such society would be untenable. At least the Arabs work!

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

The interesting thing about Israel is that while the Netanyahu coalition has the allegiance of half the electorate, more or less, much of that electorate does not participate in Israeli civil society, which is to say that a clear majority of that society is opposed to him. It's not just that the government is trying to radically transform society with the barest popular mandate—the Kahanist militia that the government intends to create is obviously totally incompatible with existing Israeli society—it's that it's doing so without the acquiescence of, really, any of the productive sector of society.

And it will only get worse. The Haredim are predicted to make up a fifth of the Israeli population by 2040 and a third by 2065 thanks to their insanely high birth rate. Imagine a third of the population that does not pay taxes, participate in the labor market or serve in the armed forces but demands the productive parts of the nation live according their rules and fund their lifestyles. Such society would be untenable. At least the Arabs work!

Honestly I don't get it. Secular, Reform, Conservative, and even Orthodox Jews have laid down their lives so that the Haredim (or, as I call them, the Jewish Taliban) can continue destroying Judaism and society writ large.

[Coldstream]

The Israeli people need to stay on the streets, and take the fight to anyone who joins Ben Gvir’s fascist militia, they’ve done well so far and they can bring their country back from the brink if they hold fast. Solidarity!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

In order to Make The Patriotic Knights Corps From Legend Of The Galactic Heroes Real to make things right with Big Daddy Itamar, would Bibi actually have to put legislation through or would it just be a matter of letting the security ministry rustle up a bunch of far-right tough guys ad hoc? If it's the latter, I really don't see how this ends without the IDF calling bullsh**t.

[Silent Hunter]

He'd probably need legislation - and you'd then have to fund the thing, procure equipment, train personnel etc.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Oh cool. An Otzma militia.
What are they going to give the guy next? A entire star cluster in the Milky Way?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Oh cool. An Otzma militia.
What are they going to give the guy next? A entire star cluster in the Milky Way?

Excuse me, I think you mean the Itamar Ben-Gvalaxy, antisemite.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Oh cool. An Otzma militia.
What are they going to give the guy next? A entire star cluster in the Milky Way?

Excuse me, I think you mean the Itamar Ben-Gvalaxy, antisemite.

Ah, yes, of course. I apologize.
At least, if they want to do a February 26 incident, they'll have to wait until next year

[All Along The Watchtower]

At risk of offering such a basic tired hack take, the way Netanyahu is acting sort of reminds me of Trump, Boris Johnson, or even, dare I say, Putin in the context of returning to the Russian Presidency in 2011-2012—and also, perhaps, Erdogan.

Too many world leaders in general who have either been around too long or have otherwise increasingly become caricatures of themselves (to the extent that they weren’t walking caricatures already, like Trump). It’s simultaneously horrifying and also rather pathetic.

[Death of a Salesman]

Good of Netanyahu to not back down. He may lose now, but it is better to lose with conviction and courage than to surrender without taking a stand.

Nice to see it confirmed that the modern GOP is actually hostile to democracy.

This proposal is by definition making the judicial process more democratic. Now you can argue that’s a bad thing due to a nature of what a judiciary deals with but please stop with these nonsense talking points .

At its core democracy means that government belongs (and is responsible to) the public as a body, not to some sub-set thereof (whether that sub-set is one king, many oligarchs, or one political party is beside the point),

What Netanyahu is very obviously doing here - allowing simple majority to over-ride the court, and his government to potentially stack the court - is destructive to rule of law, and anti-democratic (much as when Republicans do similar things to stack courts and erode rule of law in the US). That's why people are protesting - because its destructive and obvious.

This is incoherent babble from a hardcore hack. Allowing the legislature to control the court is normal within the Westminster system and is a measure that most Democrats support. If Israel had a liberal government and a right-wing court chosen by a group of conservatives, all of you would support this. Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like. All of this moaning on about principles is utter nonsense.

[Death of a Salesman]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like.

It’s more that it increases the power of a political faction that is fundamentally opposed to what most people would recognize as democracy.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

An Israeli government under that system is not one which this reform would produce, since it'd still disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

The biggest root of the current set of problems is, as mentioned upthread, misalignment of the electorate and the society. Large numbers of Haredis are quite insulated from society and get the vote; large numbers of Arabs suffer all the worst aspects of Israeli society without suffrage. As these portions of the population grow relative to the population as a whole, the government will grow further from society.

At the end of the road is Lebanon, if changes aren't made.

[Mike88]

Gantz is now surging in the latest polls:

https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1640475187886866434
https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1640478804291485696

[Antonio the Sixth]

Huh, what's the sudden bump for National Unity? Likud voters who are finally sick of Bibi?