Israel General Discussion: Annus Horribilis

[All Along The Watchtower]

Just saw this Twitter thread from last Wednesday, last tweet.

https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1638633625536045056?s=20
The nerve of this country. The US really should cut off all arms sales to every one of its Middle Eastern “allies”—very much including Israel. These countries are not even of much help in countering Russia or China, and if anything have grown closer to both!

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Fun new polling tidbits-

-Netanyahu's approval rating has fallen from -12 to -43 since the beginning of the month.

-In head-to-head polling, we've gone from Bibi +16 over Lapid to Lapid +1, while Netanyahu has gone from leading Gantz by over 10 points to losing by seven.

Netanyahu is at 25% approval, so presumably Smotrich and Bin Gvir are even lower. And since Haredi don't serve, it's entirely possible he's at French President numbers with the IDF, and quite possibly below 10% in the IAF.

[NYDem]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

Only incoherent socialists who dislike Israel are allowed to think that the British political system isn't the best form of democratic government in the world? That's sure news to me. Not to mention the majority of Israelis who oppose the reform...

[Libertas Vel Mors]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

Only incoherent socialists who dislike Israel are allowed to think that the British political system isn't the best form of democratic government in the world? That's sure news to me. Not to mention the majority of Israelis who oppose the reform...

You don't have to think that the British political system is the best in the world. But if you think it is crazily undemocratic for the Knesset to have the power to override the Israeli Supreme Court, but don't have similar objections to Parliament having the power to override the UK Supreme Court, then you should ask yourself whether you are truly objecting to the substance of the reform or merely the political consequences of it.

[NYDem]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

Only incoherent socialists who dislike Israel are allowed to think that the British political system isn't the best form of democratic government in the world? That's sure news to me. Not to mention the majority of Israelis who oppose the reform...

You don't have to think that the British political system is the best in the world. But if you think it is crazily undemocratic for the Knesset to have the power to override the Israeli Supreme Court, but don't have similar objections to Parliament having the power to override the UK Supreme Court, then you should ask yourself whether you are truly objecting to the substance of the reform or merely the political consequences of it.

I have many problems with the British political system, one of which being the lack of meaningful judicial review or judicial checks on Parliament. However, the United Kingdom is an otherwise stable and democratic country, while Israel is a powderkeg which seems more likely to explode with each passing day now. I'd object to this reform in a vacuum either way, but I also recognize that it is a far worse idea when you consider Israel's current political situation.

[Death of a Salesman]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

An Israeli government under that system is not one which this reform would produce, since it'd still disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

The biggest root of the current set of problems is, as mentioned upthread, misalignment of the electorate and the society. Large numbers of Haredis are quite insulated from society and get the vote; large numbers of Arabs suffer all the worst aspects of Israeli society without suffrage. As these portions of the population grow relative to the population as a whole, the government will grow further from society.

At the end of the road is Lebanon, if changes aren't made.

Yes, Israeli politicians are not giving out the vote to people who are hostile to the Israeli state. That's not the issue at hand here. Most Israelis who oppose the court reform still support the basic principle of a Jewish state.

The long-term path of Israel is that it keeps shifting to the right and gradually expelling the Arabs. That might not be your preferred path, but it's clearly what is going to happen.

[Death of a Salesman]

Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like.

It’s more that it increases the power of a political faction that is fundamentally opposed to what most people would recognize as democracy.

No, this is nonsense. Bibi and his allies are exemplars of majoritarian Democracy. They represent the majority of the nation-state and they believe this entitles them to govern. What you mean by democracy is an incoherent cluster of concepts which fundamentally boil down to a system where you get your way. Most modern leftists are just so illiterate that they are unable to ever conceive of democracy as bad.

[Comrade Funk]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

An Israeli government under that system is not one which this reform would produce, since it'd still disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

The biggest root of the current set of problems is, as mentioned upthread, misalignment of the electorate and the society. Large numbers of Haredis are quite insulated from society and get the vote; large numbers of Arabs suffer all the worst aspects of Israeli society without suffrage. As these portions of the population grow relative to the population as a whole, the government will grow further from society.

At the end of the road is Lebanon, if changes aren't made.

Yes, Israeli politicians are not giving out the vote to people who are hostile to the Israeli state. That's not the issue at hand here. Most Israelis who oppose the court reform still support the basic principle of a Jewish state.

The long-term path of Israel is that it keeps shifting to the right and gradually expelling the Arabs. That might not be your preferred path, but it's clearly what is going to happen.

Ethnic cleansing isn't my preferred path, yes. Is it yours?

[Death of a Salesman]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

Only incoherent socialists who dislike Israel are allowed to think that the British political system isn't the best form of democratic government in the world? That's sure news to me. Not to mention the majority of Israelis who oppose the reform...

Again, there are reasonable objections to this reform. If I were Israeli, I would probably vote against it. This is because I do not believe in democracy as the ultimate goal of politics.

The fundamental problem in Israeli politics is the ethnic tensions between the Hilonim/Ashkenazim & the Haredim/Mizrahim. On the one hand, we have the ethnic/religious grouping which founded the state, a group which dominates the productive sectors of the economy and the military. On the other hand, we have a group of the periphery who are able to assemble electoral majorities but are unable to practically push through their policies as a result of a judiciary and civil society dominated by the first group.

A system where electoral and economic power are unaligned will naturally lead to power struggles of this sort. One way to address this would be to add a property or income qualification to the ballot, which would exclude the welfare queen Haredim from the electorate and encourage them to contribute to the state. I would support this, and so would many "liberal" Israelis.

The comparison that obviously springs to mind when we look at current Israel is South Africa, and I do not mean this as it relates to the Palestinians. Rather, Bibi represents a coalition whose electoral reach exceeds their economic grasp. The failures of post-Botha South Africa offer a cautionary tale about the dangers of this.

Reasonable objections such as this make up some of the sentiment opposing the reforms in Israeli domestic politics. The problem I have is within the rather dim audience of this board, who are clearly motivated first and foremost by antizionism, who suffer under the belief that mass Arab citizenship is a plausible outcome, and whose poor education in the conditions of mass democracy have led them to view the term simply as an applause light.

There is no consideration here of the international context of these reforms, and of the frequency of democracies where a parliamentary majority can govern. There is no reckoning with the vices of democracy, abroad or at home. There is only meaningless babble from people who wish ill on Israelis.

[Death of a Salesman]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

An Israeli government under that system is not one which this reform would produce, since it'd still disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

The biggest root of the current set of problems is, as mentioned upthread, misalignment of the electorate and the society. Large numbers of Haredis are quite insulated from society and get the vote; large numbers of Arabs suffer all the worst aspects of Israeli society without suffrage. As these portions of the population grow relative to the population as a whole, the government will grow further from society.

At the end of the road is Lebanon, if changes aren't made.

Yes, Israeli politicians are not giving out the vote to people who are hostile to the Israeli state. That's not the issue at hand here. Most Israelis who oppose the court reform still support the basic principle of a Jewish state.

The long-term path of Israel is that it keeps shifting to the right and gradually expelling the Arabs. That might not be your preferred path, but it's clearly what is going to happen.

Ethnic cleansing isn't my preferred path, yes. Is it yours?

The Palestinians should have come to the table and gotten terms for a two-state solution when they were available. Instead, their delusional overconfidence has led to their irrelevance.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like.

It’s more that it increases the power of a political faction that is fundamentally opposed to what most people would recognize as democracy.

No, this is nonsense. Bibi and his allies are exemplars of majoritarian Democracy. They represent the majority of the nation-state and they believe this entitles them to govern. What you mean by democracy is an incoherent cluster of concepts which fundamentally boil down to a system where you get your way. Most modern leftists are just so illiterate that they are unable to ever conceive of democracy as bad.

You would do better by not insulting people.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Good of Netanyahu to not back down. He may lose now, but it is better to lose with conviction and courage than to surrender without taking a stand.

Nice to see it confirmed that the modern GOP is actually hostile to democracy.

This proposal is by definition making the judicial process more democratic. Now you can argue that’s a bad thing due to a nature of what a judiciary deals with but please stop with these nonsense talking points .

At its core democracy means that government belongs (and is responsible to) the public as a body, not to some sub-set thereof (whether that sub-set is one king, many oligarchs, or one political party is beside the point),

What Netanyahu is very obviously doing here - allowing simple majority to over-ride the court, and his government to potentially stack the court - is destructive to rule of law, and anti-democratic (much as when Republicans do similar things to stack courts and erode rule of law in the US). That's why people are protesting - because its destructive and obvious.

This is incoherent babble from a hardcore hack. Allowing the legislature to control the court is normal within the Westminster system and is a measure that most Democrats support. If Israel had a liberal government and a right-wing court chosen by a group of conservatives, all of you would support this. Your objection is that it reduces the power of the political faction you like. All of this moaning on about principles is utter nonsense.

If you don't want to understand the context behind why hundreds of thousands are out protesting this legislation, kindly just shut the hell up. We're tired and have better things to do than explaining this to foreigners who don't want to understand.

[Devout Centrist]

Yes, we are the hypocrites, not the Prime Minister propped up by a coalition of genocidal freaks and do nothing religious fundamentalists, who also just so happens to have a corruption charge dangling over his head like a legal Sword of Damocles. Of course.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The Westminster System is the ur-example of modern democracy and it was the system of government by which Great Britain came to dominate the world. The hyperbolic moaning about how an Israeli government under that system would be the end of democracy simply exposes the utter intellectual incoherence of the socialists who dominate this board. Most of you do not care a whit about the constitutional order, you simply dislike the Israeli state and desire to see it governed by fools of your ilk.

Only incoherent socialists who dislike Israel are allowed to think that the British political system isn't the best form of democratic government in the world? That's sure news to me. Not to mention the majority of Israelis who oppose the reform...

Again, there are reasonable objections to this reform. If I were Israeli, I would probably vote against it. This is because I do not believe in democracy as the ultimate goal of politics.

The fundamental problem in Israeli politics is the ethnic tensions between the Hilonim/Ashkenazim & the Haredim/Mizrahim. On the one hand, we have the ethnic/religious grouping which founded the state, a group which dominates the productive sectors of the economy and the military. On the other hand, we have a group of the periphery who are able to assemble electoral majorities but are unable to practically push through their policies as a result of a judiciary and civil society dominated by the first group.

A system where electoral and economic power are unaligned will naturally lead to power struggles of this sort. One way to address this would be to add a property or income qualification to the ballot, which would exclude the welfare queen Haredim from the electorate and encourage them to contribute to the state. I would support this, and so would many "liberal" Israelis.

The comparison that obviously springs to mind when we look at current Israel is South Africa, and I do not mean this as it relates to the Palestinians. Rather, Bibi represents a coalition whose electoral reach exceeds their economic grasp. The failures of post-Botha South Africa offer a cautionary tale about the dangers of this.

Reasonable objections such as this make up some of the sentiment opposing the reforms in Israeli domestic politics. The problem I have is within the rather dim audience of this board, who are clearly motivated first and foremost by antizionism, who suffer under the belief that mass Arab citizenship is a plausible outcome, and whose poor education in the conditions of mass democracy have led them to view the term simply as an applause light.

There is no consideration here of the international context of these reforms, and of the frequency of democracies where a parliamentary majority can govern. There is no reckoning with the vices of democracy, abroad or at home. There is only meaningless babble from people who wish ill on Israelis.

First of all, I want to start off by saying that what you are saying about this board, my recommending of this post does not mean I agree with said criticisms.
Now, onto the point I wanted to make: I would say democracy is means to an end, not an end in and of itself. And it is a process, not a result.
If we are defining 'democracy' this way, then in fact this bill destroys checks and balances at the alter of democracy, which is to say, a Knesset majority in a democratic election overriding the will of those who might stand in its way.
It therefore postulates that the country have to have tyranny of the majority.

[Zinneke]

Is Gantz trying to target Likud voters or trying to position himself as a sort of nondescript head of the civil society movement?

Also are Labor and Meretz considering a reformation of the Israeli left? What are their relations right now?

[America Needs R'hllor]

Is Gantz trying to target Likud voters or trying to position himself as a sort of nondescript head of the civil society movement?

Also are Labor and Meretz considering a reformation of the Israeli left? What are their relations right now?

Gantz is trying to target "soft" Likud voters by positioning himself as  nondescript civil society leader who leans center right.

Labor and Meretz - I haven't heard anything concrete, but it's pretty clear neither will run alone again. The base won't let them.

[Zinneke]

Is Gantz trying to target Likud voters or trying to position himself as a sort of nondescript head of the civil society movement?

Also are Labor and Meretz considering a reformation of the Israeli left? What are their relations right now?

Gantz is trying to target "soft" Likud voters by positioning himself as  nondescript civil society leader who leans center right.

Given the inverted commas, do you still think such a thing as a soft Likud voter, who disagrees with Netenyahu and the Kahanists but wants a right-wing government, exists? Or are most Likud voters by now fully on board whichever direction their leader goes?

[America Needs R'hllor]

Is Gantz trying to target Likud voters or trying to position himself as a sort of nondescript head of the civil society movement?

Also are Labor and Meretz considering a reformation of the Israeli left? What are their relations right now?

Gantz is trying to target "soft" Likud voters by positioning himself as  nondescript civil society leader who leans center right.

Given the inverted commas, do you still think such a thing as a soft Likud voter, who disagrees with Netenyahu and the Kahanists but wants a right-wing government, exists? Or are most Likud voters by now fully on board whichever direction their leader goes?

I do think a substantial number of Likud voters believe this, but in the end of the day I think that even if they say they won't right now, they'll stick with Netanyahu in the end. Their priorities won't let them vote for the center left.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

[Zinneke]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

You're insane.

In situations like this it's important to not become who you claim your opponent is. Secularists should be pushing for a constitutional compromise, not a military coup or disenfranchisement of the Haredi as voters. 

The Haredi also seemed to be brazen about the fact that their relationship with the state of Israel is purely transactional until recently (interested to hear the views of the Israeli posters about this)? The more adequate comparison to the Taliban is the Kahanists that Ben Gvir will personally make into a militia if he gets his way.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

You're insane.

In situations like this it's important to not become who you claim your opponent is. Secularists should be pushing for a constitutional compromise, not a military coup or disenfranchisement of the Haredi as voters.  

The Haredi also seemed to be brazen about the fact that their relationship with the state of Israel is purely transactional until recently (interested to hear the views of the Israeli posters about this)? The more adequate comparison to the Taliban is the Kahanists that Ben Gvir will personally make into a militia if he gets his way.

It doesn't exactly seem democratic to mass-disenfranchise Haredim.
At the same time, the options don't look too good in the long run, that is true.
These two statements can be credibly postulated as simultaneously true: There is no future for a democratic Israel without Haredim voting. There is no future for a "liberal" Israel with Haredim voting.
In the circumstances, a compromise is the best way to defuse the situation, but neither side seems interested in a broad settlement.

Imo, the best way to look at this, in simple terms, is that the group of people who founded the state became a victim of their own success and slowly got outnumbered in their own country. The institutions they still control (bureaucracy, tech firms, etc.) are now effectively juxtaposed in opposition to the majority of the country's population, defined by relative "periphery"-ness in terms of their relationship to the non-elected power centers of the country (which informs Bibi being strongly Majoritarian Democratic in his views). And now, the rivalries between these two camps, unglued by the slow weakening of the Palestinian opposition (itself something their work together has achieved), now becomes paramount, at least in the moment.

Bibi told a crowd of his supporters recently that they are "second-class citizens". This has the feel of ethnic vs ethnic to me. And one group that has dominated the corridors of power within a state is being challenged by up-and-comers. To be sure, a lot of the periphery types probably disapprove of Bibi at this point (how else does he get to merely 25% approval), but I would somewhat surprised if huge numbers of them turned on him in a snap election, considering these very deep cleavages and the political identity that is mapped on top of them.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

Are you out of your mind? I don't think I need to explain why disenfranchising not just the Haredim but the vast majority of Arabs (who are not drafted either) would be a catastrophically stupid idea.

[DavidB.]

Disenfranchising millions of people to "save democracy" is like f**king for virginity.

[Cassius]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

So a modern version of the Spartan Constitution? I like the things you say Mr Baerbock…

[Zinneke]

IMO Israel should restrict voting rights to those who served in the IDF, otherwise the Haredim will multiply and take control.

Maybe another idea is imposing a punitive tax on ultra-orthodox Jews, who aren't that much different than the Taliban.

If Israel has a democratic future it needs to be majority Secular/Reform/Conservative.

So a modern version of the Spartan Constitution? I like the things you say Mr Baerbock…

Eritrean too.