What undermimes marriage more?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Wait, are you still arguing that being gay is a conscious choice?  I thought we cleared that up for you several pages back?

When on earth did I ever say that it's not a conscious choice?

..... Uh.  Read my post again...

What?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Sodom & Gomorah

Which is in the Old Testament, not the New. But I'll run with this anyway...

It seems to me that the sins of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were the fact that they tended to rape newcomers to their cities, rather than homosexuality...

That's how I interpret it. Again the key word is disputed, the Hebrew- 'yada' - which means to know, to have knowledge of. It doesn't really have much sexual connotation to it.

men prostitutes could be written as gay men (I don't know the word).

I suggest you read this; it will clear up the misconceptions regarding the Greek translation.

Your New Testament example is flawed, and the language translation that is most commonly accepted by Biblical scholars (even many conservative ones!) does not state that homosexuality is wrong.

We both have sources on our sides--we aren't going to agree.  Can we move on?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

or homosexual practices during idol worship--but drop it--we won't agree on the greek translation.

Do you actually know anything about the greek translation? (that isn't creamed from google) And yes homosexual practices were condemned during idol worship...as were heterosexual practices elswhere in the NT. It doesn't mean he sees them as wrong, but only wrong in context- ie idol worship and prostitution. Not long term, stable gay relationships.

We discussed this in Bible class, but no, I don't have my personal Greek translation as I'm debating here.

In took Theology for six years and we encountered this They are not covering the issues well, or not wanting to delve into controversy.

I'm not following your point here.

[afleitch]

But 'arsenokoiten' can mean gay men.

No, It does not. Thats what the word 'homophilia' is there for the word arsenokoiten is also used in the Sybilline Oracle and does not mean gay men, it means prostitute.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Does anybody else here feel like we talking to a brick wall?

A very stubborn brick wall--who just happens to be standing between you and you being correct.

[Alcon]

Inks, hold up.  You don't need to reply to every post immediately.  Please take the time to read the link I gave you.

Why do you believe your sources to be more accurate?  You are simply re-stating that it could mean "gay man" in general.  I provide evidence that it was probably not, and you just say that it "could be" again.  You aren't even bothering to explain why you believe this to be the true interpretation.

It's OK to slow down in replying to our posts and articulate your reasons more clearly.  No harm, no foul.  But what you are saying is directly, strongly contradicted by the link I just provided.  If you just keep repeating the assertion would addressing my counter-assertion, you are the one putting up that "brick wall."

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

But 'arsenokoiten' can mean gay men.

No, It does not. Thats what the word 'homophilia' is there for the word arsenokoiten is also used in the Sybilline Oracle and does not mean gay men, it means prostitute.

It CAN mean gay.  I'm looking at a Grekk NT now.  What is 'malakoi'?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Ah. Leviticus. Oh dear. First things first... Leviticus is in the Old Testament, not the New. As such it has little bearing on the Christian religion (beyond very interesting background reading; not that Leviticus is much use for that, but some books in it are really fascinating. Job for instance) in most respects... but I'll let you run with this as well.

This particular part of Leviticus (the worst written book of the Bible by far, but that is by the by) is taken out of all context more often than any part of any book ever written in the entire history of humanity (well... maybe not. But grant unto me the right for a little hyperbole).

First off, it is literally taken out of context. The acts described are part of a long list of various sins, generally of a sexual nature (although the first few aren't) and the recommended punishments are pretty brutal throughout (with execution being the favoured solution). Man lying as with woman is the fifth in the list of sexual sins. And it's not entirely sure what is meant by man-lying-with-another-man-as-wIt's actually lower than having sex with certain in-laws.
And it's not certain what lying-as-with-woman actually means, for several reasons. But that is also by the by.

Leviticus is a set of rules for a society that we do not live in anymore (unless you happen to live in a tight-knight nomadic society... which I doubt). And they are a set of, well more than rules, laws, which are no longer obeyed. Unless you live your life according to the book of Leviticus (if so that means no clothes made of mixed fibres, no pork and so on. Just thank the Lord that you aren't female; there's a lot of weird stuff on menstruation there. And plenty of ever useful information about how to sacrifice a goat) then you really have no right to complain that others don't... and here's the thing. There is no requirement for Christians to follow the laws in the book of Leviticus.

[afleitch]

It CAN mean gay.  I'm looking at a Grekk NT now.  What is 'malakoi'?

It means to be feminine, to display feminine traits. Its the greek equivalent of name calling somone a 'sissy' or a 'p-ssy'

EDIT- and really, arsenokoiten doesnt mean gay. It would be helpful to alot of people if it did, as they could justify their anti-gay position. But it doesn't- not in the NT, or the Oracle or to a basic scholar of Greek.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Inks, hold up.  You don't need to reply to every post immediately.  Please take the time to read the link I gave you.

Why do you believe your sources to be more accurate?  You are simply re-stating that it could mean "gay man" in general.  I provide evidence that it was probably not, and you just say that it "could be" again.  You aren't even bothering to explain why you believe this to be the true interpretation.

It's OK to slow down in replying to our posts and articulate your reasons more clearly.  No harm, no foul.  But what you are saying is directly, strongly contradicted by the link I just provided.  If you just keep repeating the assertion would addressing my counter-assertion, you are the one putting up that "brick wall."

I still just disagree w/ you.  I don't see Greek as that cut and dry to translate.  I can't translate Greek, so I'm relying on what I've heard from my teachers and pastors (combined w/ OT examples) to reach the conclusion that Paul IS referring to homosexuals here.  Just curious, what translation is everyone using, b/c NIV, KJV, and NASB all say homosexual.  I can't find my RSV, or NRSV.

[Alcon]

The question you are asking makes me think that you still have not read the link provided, regardless of the subsequent translations.

[afleitch]

I still just disagree w/ you.  I don't see Greek as that cut and dry to translate.  I can't translate Greek, so I'm relying on what I've heard from my teachers and pastors (combined w/ OT examples) to reach the conclusion that Paul IS referring to homosexuals here.  Just curious, what translation is everyone using, b/c NIV, KJV, and NASB all say homosexual.  I can't find my RSV, or NRSV.

Take time to learn things yourself. It can be really interesting delving into Greek. You have to understand that the translation of the word arsenokoiten to mean homosexual is a, probably purposely, sustained mistranslation.

Give the passages to a Greek scholar (as I did) and they wont translate them that way. I am a more contented Christian for doing that, as it's important to remain true to the source.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

Ah. Leviticus. Oh dear. First things first... Leviticus is in the Old Testament, not the New. As such it has little bearing on the Christian religion (beyond very interesting background reading; not that Leviticus is much use for that, but some books in it are really fascinating. Job for instance) in most respects... but I'll let you run with this as well.

It is the basis for my beliefs and interpretations of the NT, thus it is necessary, by backing up my I Cor. claims.

[/quote]This particular part of Leviticus (the worst written book of the Bible by far, but that is by the by) is taken out of all context more often than any part of any book ever written in the entire history of humanity (well... maybe not. But grant unto me the right for a little hyperbole).

First off, it is literally taken out of context. The acts described are part of a long list of various sins, generally of a sexual nature (although the first few aren't) and the recommended punishments are pretty brutal throughout (with execution being the favoured solution). Man lying as with woman is the fifth in the list of sexual sins. And it's not entirely sure what is meant by man-lying-with-another-man-as-wIt's actually lower than having sex with certain in-laws.
And it's not certain what lying-as-with-woman actually means, for several reasons. But that is also by the by.

let's consult Zondervan about 18:22:

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and 20:13:

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Leviticus is a set of rules for a society that we do not live in anymore (unless you happen to live in a tight-knight nomadic society... which I doubt). And they are a set of, well more than rules, laws, which are no longer obeyed. Unless you live your life according to the book of Leviticus (if so that means no clothes made of mixed fibres, no pork and so on. Just thank the Lord that you aren't female; there's a lot of weird stuff on menstruation there. And plenty of ever useful information about how to sacrifice a goat) then you really have no right to complain that others don't... and here's the thing. There is no requirement for Christians to follow the laws in the book of Leviticus.
[/quote]

But it provides basis for explaining Romans and I Cor.; however, nowhere in the NT does it say no mixed fibers, and Paul says that we can eat pork.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It CAN mean gay.  I'm looking at a Grekk NT now.  What is 'malakoi'?

It means to be feminine, to display feminine traits. Its the greek equivalent of name calling somone a 'sissy' or a 'p-ssy'

EDIT- and really, arsenokoiten doesnt mean gay. It would be helpful to alot of people if it did, as they could justify their anti-gay position. But it doesn't- not in the NT, or the Oracle or to a basic scholar of Greek.

But what is your basis of this?  Paul was not a Dr. like Luke, so his Greek wouldn't be up to the great standards of others @ his time.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The question you are asking makes me think that you still have not read the link provided, regardless of the subsequent translations.

I have read the link.  See my last post talking about Paul to afleitch.

[afleitch]

But what is your basis of this?  Paul was not a Dr. like Luke, so his Greek wouldn't be up to the great standards of others @ his time.

He would know what the word arsenokoiten meant! Particularly if he was inspired or guided by God, He would make sure he got things right Even disgregarding the translation of the word itself, you really have to look at Romans 1:25 to understand it's context.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I still just disagree w/ you.  I don't see Greek as that cut and dry to translate.  I can't translate Greek, so I'm relying on what I've heard from my teachers and pastors (combined w/ OT examples) to reach the conclusion that Paul IS referring to homosexuals here.  Just curious, what translation is everyone using, b/c NIV, KJV, and NASB all say homosexual.  I can't find my RSV, or NRSV.

Take time to learn things yourself. It can be really interesting delving into Greek. You have to understand that the translation of the word arsenokoiten to mean homosexual is a, probably purposely, sustained mistranslation.

Give the passages to a Greek scholar (as I did) and they wont translate them that way. I am a more contented Christian for doing that, as it's important to remain true to the source.

It has been discussed @ school by 3 people who have translated at least 1/2 of the Bible from Greek, as well as my Pastor (who has only done a few books).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

But what is your basis of this?  Paul was not a Dr. like Luke, so his Greek wouldn't be up to the great standards of others @ his time.

He would know what the word arsenokoiten meant! Particularly if he was inspired or guided by God, He would make sure he got things right Even disgregarding the translation of the word itself, you really have to look at Romans 1:25 to understand it's context.

He knew what arsenokoiten meant, but he perhaps didn't know what the other word you said before (homosexual) meant.  He was inspired by God, and God inspired him to use this word.

[Alcon]

And what did he say?  That they could translate it into "homosexuality" with any level of true certainty?  What was his logic?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

OK, I'm all caught up now, you can go back to the major bombardment.  How many posts do you need to get to YaBB God status?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

And what did he say?  That they could translate it into "homosexuality" with any level of true certainty?  What was his logic?

Who?  My main Bible teacher said it was a debated passage, but b/c of the context, and previous discussions in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong + the fact that Paul wasn't an expert of Greek, leads him to believe that it means homosexual.

[© tweed]

OK, I'm all caught up now, you can go back to the major bombardment.  How many posts do you need to get to YaBB God status?

500

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

OK, I'm all caught up now, you can go back to the major bombardment.  How many posts do you need to get to YaBB God status?

500

That's what I thought.  I was at 389 when we started this an hr. ago.  Speaking of which, I only have about 1 more hr., b/c my mom & sister are flying in to FL, and wanted to call when they got in.

[Alcon]

And what did he say?  That they could translate it into "homosexuality" with any level of true certainty?  What was his logic?

Who?  My main Bible teacher said it was a debated passage, but b/c of the context, and previous discussions in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong + the fact that Paul wasn't an expert of Greek, leads him to believe that it means homosexual.

How does Paul's lack of Greek expertise imply that?  And certainly the context - which I believe mentions prostitution (Al or whomever, correct me if I'm wrong) - seems to not indicate that it would be referencing homosexuality.

And if it's a debated passage, why are you so utterly certain about it?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It is the basis for my beliefs and interpretations of the NT,

Well it shouldn't be. The OT and NT are seperate collections of books; one is the core of the Christian religion, the other is the early history of the Jews (amongst other things).

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A publishing company?

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Well this seems to be the usual collection of taking things grossly out of context and spinning them out of all proportion. And a nasty little jibe at the end.
It does not address the criticisms I have made of their interpretation of Leviticus. Not once.