The Atlas Asylum of absurd/ignorant posts IX

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

As for gender equality - the US has a worse pay gap; doesn't even have maternity leave, let alone paternity leave; has never had a women head of state (and we all know how the last woman to stand for that position got treated); and has fewer women in its parliament than basically every western european country. These are all pretty concrete things that I think you have to accept suggest that the US is a broadly more conservative country when it comes to gender equality. (and you know, the fact that Switzerland, which was until recently incredibly bad on this issue is now ahead on every one of these measures is perhaps something that is worth paying attention to)

If I may veer off topic a bit: how are you defining "pay gap" in the context of gender? Is Switzerland doing something to equalize incomes irrespective of hours worked or job types? I am genuinely curious how you go about that, because any country that allows you to work in whatever field you want is bound to have pay disparities. A job that pays well is not necessarily going to be your dream job, and what that dream job is varies by individual. I contend that the lack of women in STEM, for example, comes down to difference in preferences, because it has already been illegal for half a century for employers to pay women less for the exact same job as men. So to get a non-American's perspective on this would be helpful to me.

I agree with everything else and have always supported generous maternity/paternity leave, but that's not necessarily a gender issue if everyone gets the same time off. And on the flip side, perhaps Switzerland likes seeing women in power more than Americans, and even American women, do. (That is not a good or desirable thing, but I am curious how you reconcile policy with culture in these respects.)

[Former President tack50]

Outside the English-speaking world? Latinx is an English word near exclusively used by English speakers. Much less common to see it in Spanish-speaking communities.

As someone who lives very obviously in a Spanish-speaking community, while Latinx itself is an uncommon word (I am always surprised by the fixation on 1 word as opposed to the broader concept of inclusive language); parochial_boy is always right in that inclusive language is a very big debate in societies with gendered language.

Trust me I have seen plenty of people writing stuff like "Vosotrxs" and what not among people I know.

[parochial boy]

I wasn't aware the French even had gender neutral language.  What singular definite article do you use in that case?

There are actually a variety of ways that it is done, with varying levels of uptake and controversy. The most widespread and uncontroversial is simply to use both maculin and feminine form at the same time. As in say "the (male) teacher and the (female) teacher or something like that"; more controversial is basically always using the plural and combining it with "point médian" so that you wind up writing something like les enseignant-e-s; thirdly is using a neologism like "iel" insted of il/elle - but that is something very much restricted to woke online spaces.

And this only applies to gendered roles of  course - no-one is worried about the fact that a roof is male gendered or whatever.

If I may veer off topic a bit: how are you defining "pay gap" in the context of gender? Is Switzerland doing something to equalize incomes irrespective of hours worked or job types? I am genuinely curious how you go about that, because any country that allows you to work in whatever field you want is bound to have pay disparities. A job that pays well is not necessarily going to be your dream job, and what that dream job is varies by individual. I contend that the lack of women in STEM, for example, comes down to difference in preferences, because it has already been illegal for half a century for employers to pay women less for the exact same job as men. So to get a non-American's perspective on this would be helpful to me.

I agree with everything else and have always supported generous maternity/paternity leave, but that's not necessarily a gender issue if everyone gets the same time off. And on the flip side, perhaps Switzerland likes seeing women in power more than Americans, and even American women, do. (That is not a good or desirable thing, but I am curious how you reconcile policy with culture in these respects.)

That's the thing right? in part it is a cultural preference - so woman are more inclined to study and move into technical fields. But also, traditionally feminine jobs are relatively better paid here. Just as an example, the average salary for a nurse in Switzerland is around $90k, and a doctor earns a little over twice that - whereas the gap between a nurse's and a doctor's salary in the US is much bigger (and feminine coded low pay jobs like cleaning, child care etc... are also much better paid here).

The big thing though is all the provisions of the welfare state - maternity leave means not having the same interruption to your career / stark choice that you would have to make; paternity leave incites a cultural norm where the father is also responsible for childcare; public nursery's make affordable childcare an option, as to childcare subsidies; and on and on. The fact is, Switzerland is for the most part still really bad at all of this, and is playing catch up with the rest of the continent because the change in attitudes has been something that has really only happened over the course of my lifetime.

Which, I mean, yeah - I think culture drives a lot of these policies, but ultimately, the gender pay gap does rely on culture. It's not enough to merely legislate equal pay when you still have a culture that pushes women towards lower paying careers, or values "female" jobs less highly, or forces them to make career choices that men don't have to. So it ultimately seems that either, the US is resistant towards making these choices because of a certain level of cultural conservatism on these issues; or because of it being so signed up to (neo)liberal economics that it doesn't want to implement the sort of welfare state policies that would support gender equality. Although I'm kind of tempted to reject the second reason because, just as Switzerland has being playing catch up with regards to cultural conservatism, I don't really think that attitudes in the USA are unusually right wing with regards to the welfare state and redistribution any more.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wasn't aware the French even had gender neutral language.  What singular definite article do you use in that case?

There are actually a variety of ways that it is done, with varying levels of uptake and controversy. The most widespread and uncontroversial is simply to use both maculin and feminine form at the same time. As in say "the (male) teacher and the (female) teacher or something like that"; more controversial is basically always using the plural and combining it with "point médian" so that you wind up writing something like les enseignant-e-s; thirdly is using a neologism like "iel" insted of il/elle - but that is something very much restricted to woke online spaces.

And this only applies to gendered roles of  course - no-one is worried about the fact that a roof is male gendered or whatever.

Than this is not the same thing and is obviously not just about making language more gender neutral:

https://twitter.com/SunriseElPaso/status/1408551232579555336?s=19

"Bienvenido" simply means "welcome" it's not a noun or something that refers to someone with gender. You said above no one would create sh!t like this in French.

Also that doesn't explain people saying "Latinx man" or "Latinx woman" which obviously don't need to be gender-neutral.

[AGA]

I wasn't aware the French even had gender neutral language.  What singular definite article do you use in that case?

There are actually a variety of ways that it is done, with varying levels of uptake and controversy. The most widespread and uncontroversial is simply to use both maculin and feminine form at the same time. As in say "the (male) teacher and the (female) teacher or something like that"; more controversial is basically always using the plural and combining it with "point médian" so that you wind up writing something like les enseignant-e-s; thirdly is using a neologism like "iel" insted of il/elle - but that is something very much restricted to woke online spaces.

And this only applies to gendered roles of  course - no-one is worried about the fact that a roof is male gendered or whatever.

Than this is not the same thing and is obviously not just about making language more gender neutral:

https://twitter.com/SunriseElPaso/status/1408551232579555336?s=19

"Bienvenido" simply means "welcome" it's not a noun or something that refers to someone with gender. You said above no one would create sh!t like this in French.

Also that doesn't explain people saying "Latinx man" or "Latinx woman" which obviously don't need to be gender-neutral.

"Bienvenido," like other Spanish adjectives, is gendered depending on the people who are welcome.

[Sol]

Let me put it this way, on a French forum or discord server whose membership had broadly the same political outlook as this site's usership, gender neutral language would be, actually is, pretty much the normal way of writing. Whereas, on this forum, most of the time it feels like I am reading the most predictable outposts of the reactionary right wing French press. So for me that is actually very surprising, because France is for the most part a very reactionary, racist country; and yet this apparently left wing forum mostly takes a position that even by French standards would be considered right wing on this one particular issue.

Well, this I think is the rub--English, in not having grammatical gender, simply is often gender-inclusive by default. The only real grammatical occasion where this sort of thing is an issue is 3rd person singular pronouns, but even there singular they has always been a thing and seems to catching on with remarkably little pushback considering its queer and trans connotations. Even before the mainstreaming of singular they it was pretty normal practice for many English writers to alternate between using a default "he" and "she."

There are also absolutely various discursive whirlpools around the use of "you guys" vs. "y'all," is "dude" gendered, etc. but there certainly isn't much intensity around this stuff in most cases because it's nearly always possible to speak in a way which simply isn't gendered.

And of course the general tendency has been towards jettisoning gendered terms for professions anyway--i.e. stewardess --> flight attendant, actress --> actor, etc. About the only English term I can think of where I would unthinkingly recreate some gendered doublet is probably waiter vs. waitress. Unsurprisingly, the common tendency has been to adopt the masculine form, perhaps because the feminine form often has negatively tinged sexist connotations, like "master" vs. "mistress." Obviously this itself is a reflection of sexism, but the result in a few generations is an inclusive word without gendered connotations (i.e. executrix used to be a term people actually used, but now everyone is an executor without much of a connotation).

Anyway, I guess my point is that probably the most natural loanword behavior in English for the word "latino" is for it to be adopted as a generic gender-neutral term. But of course that sounds weird to Spanish speakers, so English inherited the rather alien Spanish distinction between the masculine and feminine forms. And the result of this conflict between different English and Spanish ways of being gender-inclusive in speech is "Latinx," which sounds artificial to monoglot English speakers particularly because it's sort of equivalent to making a third alternative to waiter or waitress, i.e. something like "waitx."

Anyway I typed all of these words not because I disagree with you--I think the posters who can't deal when some person says Latinx are silly--but rather because I'm a bit of a linguistics nerd who finds this kind of discrepancy between differing ways of being linguistically inclusive interesting.

[S019]

can we please stop this two page argument over Latinx, it's a stupid term, okay great, now let's move on

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Personally, I’d support State Atheism if only I knew that it wouldn’t inevitably lead to authoritarianism and the creation of religious martyrs. The last thing we need is to help religions recruit through giving them valid grievances against an atheist power structure. Instead, there should be a concerted effort in our cultural institutions to invalidate, discredit, and disempower all religions and “faith based” viewpoints, while simultaneously promoting atheism and its liberatory effects.

The only morally acceptable supernatural/religious viewpoints, in my opinion, are nature-oriented ones. But, historically, even those have proven problematic.

[S019]

Lets remember when 2nd amendment was introduced, US lacked a standing army and you only had muskets.  So in 1776, it actually made a lot of sense.  But in 2021 with modern weaponry and a proper standing army it makes absolutely zero sense.

Lets remember when the 1st Amendment was introduced, you only had the printing press.  So in 1776, it actually made a lot of sense.  But in 2021 with modern technology and the ability to reach millions instantly, it makes absolutely zero sense.


(of course, with a lot of modern progressives, this line of argument isn't going to work because those clowns don't believe in freedom of speech either...because the modern left hates liberty unless it doesn't bother anyone)

bolded part is what's absurd and ignorant

[Hammy]

Two for the price of one today.

Where are all the red avatars to point-out about how ignorant the local/state leadership must be to leave critical infrastructure "unweatherized" for once-in-a-century events like this one?

Anyone who loses their life in this disaster, their blood is on Trump's hands. These heat waves are being caused by climate change, which Trump exacerbated.

[RFK Jr.’s Brain Worm]

Massive HP

How could you slander the founder of the Democratic Party like that?

Click thread for context

It’s sarcasm?

[Hammy]

There is ample evidence Mossad was involved in 9/11, and saying so is not "anti-Semitism". Israel is a country, not an ethnicity.

[Old Man Willow]

There is ample evidence Mossad was involved in 9/11, and saying so is not "anti-Semitism". Israel is a country, not an ethnicity.

Seems unfair (in a moral sense, not a forum rules sense) people can mock this but I'm literally not allowed to post evidence for it.

[The Dowager Mod]

I agreed with the reasoning Horus gave so I left the original post alone.

LOL at people reporting my post. Weird that the accusations lobbed at Russia are never considered anti-Slavic bigotry.

I don't think Mossad was involved in 9/11 but believing so is not inherently antisemitic. Your posts should stay up.

[Proud Houstonian]

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=434870.msg7996636#msg7996636

[If my soul was made of stone]

I am thinking that Donald Trump definitely won a majority of the Hispanic vote in 2020, perhaps as high as 75% in Miami Dade County and the Rio Grade Valley counties in Texas. It seems that most Hispanic Americans I know with heritage from Spain are overwhelmingly Democratic, whereas most Hispanic Americans I know who are from Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, Columbia, Nicaragua, Argentina, and El Salvador are strong Trump supporters.

[Left Wing]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

[Roll Roons]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

Florida is really good at it. Don't be bitter just because Democrats keep coming up short there. But don't take my word for it.

Here's Jeb!: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-florida-became-americas-vote-counting-model-11604703732

[Left Wing]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

They're really good at it. But don't take my word for it.

Jeb! is spot on here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-florida-became-americas-vote-counting-model-11604703732

I mean after the debacle in the aftermath of the 2018 senate race, it seems clear that there’s something to be desired with their election administration.

[Roll Roons]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

They're really good at it. But don't take my word for it.

Jeb! is spot on here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-florida-became-americas-vote-counting-model-11604703732

I mean after the debacle in the aftermath of the 2018 senate race, it seems clear that there’s something to be desired with their election administration.

They got a full statewide recount of over 8 million votes completed in 12 days. That is a gold standard, no matter how you slice it.

[Hammy]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

They're really good at it. But don't take my word for it.

Jeb! is spot on here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-florida-became-americas-vote-counting-model-11604703732

I mean after the debacle in the aftermath of the 2018 senate race, it seems clear that there’s something to be desired with their election administration.

I hate to defend Florida but, at least the administration of the vote count and such, Florida has done a fairly good job and seems to have actually learned from 2000. New York/NYC on the other hand deserve to be shamed into oblivion.

[brucejoel99]

Exactly these incompetently run elections undermine trust and confidence and make it seem like Trump's BS of election fraud may be sort of true. New York state and the city are a disgrace when it comes to managing elections properly. Not want to sound lecturing here, but sometimes I think you guys just should get out and let us Europeans run your elections. We don't have the issues.

Forget Europe. Florida does it completely right.

They're really good at it. But don't take my word for it.

Jeb! is spot on here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-florida-became-americas-vote-counting-model-11604703732

I mean after the debacle in the aftermath of the 2018 senate race, it seems clear that there’s something to be desired with their election administration.

I hate to defend Florida but, at least the administration of the vote count and such, Florida has done a fairly good job and seems to have actually learned from 2000. New York/NYC on the other hand deserve to be shamed into oblivion.

Not to mention, the 2018 Senate debacle wasn't even a vote count issue on the state's part so much as a pre-election ballot design issue on the part of Brenda Snipes' office in Broward. Say what can be said about certain individual incidents at the local level, but in regards to the state as a whole, we've come a long way since 2000, while NY could probably never.

[NewYorkExpress]

Donald Rumsfeld did nothing wrong. May he rest in peace.  

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Regretting giving Garcia any pref now, Adams is obviously better based on the demographics of their supporters.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Tbh if French food is anything, its just a tad over-rated?