Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are some significant communities that used to exist in Ukraine and eastern Poland which no longer do because of Hitler. I think they might have had an opinion.

A few years before he died, a very ill David Lewis visited the town of his birth - Svisloch (now Svislach) not far from Białystok but now part of Belarus - on behalf of The Toronto Star. The town had been overwhelmingly Jewish when he grew up there, but as he noted for the paper, there were none left now: everyone had been killed, his extended family included. Anyway.

[MaxQue]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-poland-minister-extradite-1.6978266

Poland is also drumming up election baiting and wants to extradite Hunka. He probably deserves it but unlike a concentration  camp guard there isn't enough proof yet IMO.

Would Canada accept Poland’s deportation request for this Nazi? Or will they protect him since he’s long been a Canadian citizen at this point?

Given his age and current court delays (under Canadian law, even if Canada agrees, they still need a judge to agree), it's more likely that he will die before the process is completed, which may have weight in the decision to start the process at all.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This, of course, is the most absurd part of all: actually managing to find a living Waffen SS veteran, when now, like all veterans of the War, they're slightly rarer than hen's teeth.

[CumbrianLefty]

There was a question in another section recently - who was better out of Kissinger and J E Hoover?

And, despite how much he is a living meme of villainy to so many of us, the answer to this simply has to be old Heinz - because he did *some* good things along with all the evil (and yes, he also had that terrific and entirely correct one liner on the Iran-Iraq war)

And in the same vein, J V Dzughashvili *was* better than Herr Schicklgruber - just as he was if he is compared to the likes of Saloth Sar or Macias Nguema. Ultimately, even if unwittingly - and indeed contrary to his initial positioning - he helped save the civilised world.

[Hatman 🍁]

https://twitter.com/DrJacobsRad/status/1706320914021835105

I have been unable to find exit poll data on how Canadian Jews typically vote.

How do Canadian Jews typically vote? If they vote for Conservatives typically, this might not make much a difference. If they vote for Liberals, however, this could persuade enough Canadian Jews to flip key seats across the country, especially if the 2025 Canadian Election is close.

I've done quite a bit of polling on this. One of my clients, JSpace Canada should be publishing a poll of Jewish Canadians soon which included a vote intention question. But to sum, Jews in Quebec are Liberal leaning and in Ontario they are Tory leaning. This is clear when you look at how Mount Royal and Thornhill vote.

Basically, if Jews in Quebec start leaning Tory after this, that could be a major problem for Trudeau. If this happens, could we essentially say sayonara to Trudeau's chances of winning another term?

I mean, Jews don't make up a large enough population in Quebec to really make much of a difference. Even in Mount Royal, it would be an uphill battle for the Tories to swing it, considering it's a safe Liberal seat and it's still a majority non Jewish.

[Aurelius2]

I had expected a polling bump for Trudeau after he revealed the assassination of Nijjar was carried out by India. After Nazigate I feel comfortable assuming that will not happen. A few more months of this and he'll be at pre-final-week Truss numbers. That EKOS poll with the Grits at 22 percent was a small sample size and a massive outlier so I'm not giving it too much weight (though I admit it's what initially put the Truss/Sunak comparison into my mind), but the Leger poll that just came out shows a CPC lead of 12, up from 9 a month ago, and other recent polls suggest the decline continues.

Trudeau and Sunak have similar-ish amounts of time left till the next fixed election date. At least Sunak, whatever you think of him, is clearly trying to do something with his tenure. Trudeau seems content to just run out the clock and keep doing the same things he's been doing for 8 or however many years. To my eye he's acting like a lame duck while Canada's crises spiral, and if he's not gonna take some sort of bold action to fix the mess he might as well call an election and go out with some dignity instead of dragging this dog and pony show out for two more years.

[Benjamin Frank]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

There are some significant communities that used to exist in Ukraine and eastern Poland which no longer do because of Hitler. I think they might have had an opinion.

Yes, and there were up to 5 million Ukrainians murdered by Stalin.

[Benjamin Frank]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

What kind of question is this? Lmaaao

Are you really suggesting the US should’ve joined Nazi Germany to fight the Soviets instead? Or that they should’ve not get involved because both sides “equally bad”.

Just accept Canada ed up and that Ukraine has somewhat of a problematic relationship with WW2 dynamics and let’s move on.

Well, given the situation in Europe at the time, that wasn't a consideration though there were actually a fair number of Americans who wanted the U.S to join on the side of the Nazis.

More Americans Supported Hitler Than You May Think. Here's Why One Expert Thinks That History Isn't Better Known
https://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/

I accept your second sentance in regards to 'let's move on' but you are leaving out that Germany had also invaded much of the rest of Europe!

What do you honestly think the United States (or Europe) would have done if Hitler/Nazi Germany had only invaded the Soviet Union, which is the only question analagous to the question I asked.

I suspect that to the degree that the U.S wasn't isolationist as opposed to later on, that the attitude (and in Europe as well, maybe) would have bene similar to the Iran/Iraq War in which the real private position anyway was 'great, let's keep them fighting as long as possible.'

If this was what actually happened, I suspect the only concern Europe would have had would have been that Hitler/Nazi Germany would have won too easily and gained enormously from conquering the Soviet Union and that would make Nazi Germany far more dangerous to the West, so would have supported the Soviet Union with war materiel to keep the Soviets able to fight.

[Benjamin Frank]

The past few pages are great Rorschach tests. I feel confident that if the parties were reversed the only person I am 100% would be writing the exact same posts past the initial discussion of this occurred are Anarchy in the CCCP. Anyone want to bet money Frank would be writing the same posts if it was a Conservative House Leadership doing the exact same faux pas? The logic would be the exact same and therefore should hold, but I doubt it, he'd probably tear into them that this shows an underlying flaw in their character and would be a Freudian slip showing the Tories are too comfortable with these elements and should not be in power. I doubt Wernher Von Braun would ever be raised. Exemplifies everything wrong with modern Western democracy. There's no principles or morals that are universally held at all times by partisans, you adjust what you state and believe based on the needs of the moment, truth be damned.

The rewriting history motion raised in the House to remove the praise AND the video...such nonsense.

If you look over the history of my posts, I am strong to the point of aggressive (and many here would say past that point)  in arguing in favor of ideas but I am not a partisan for any political party. The Liberal Party in Canada is closest to my views, but I have criticized them many times. I also, for instance, praised the leadership campaign of Scott Aitchison and praised the pro private sector union arguments of Erin O'Toole.

I didn't even vote for the Liberals in 2015, 2019 or 2021.

In 2015 to be sure, I didn't vote for the Liberals because I didn't like their local candidate and I voted for the NDP candidate who I know a little personally. In 2019 I spoiled my ballot because I didn't like the orgy of spending promises from all parties (I would have even considered voting for the PPC as Maxime Bernier was the only leader to call out all the other parties on that) but I disagreed with too much of the rest of their platform (which was more or less libertarian at that time) and in 2021, I wouldn't vote for the Liberals because I disliked the calling of the election during Covid and again voted NDP because I again know the local NDP candidate a little (both the 2015 and 2021 NDP candidates have been active municipally.)

I believe I've mentioned all of these things and was here in 2021 and criticized the Liberals for calling the election at that time.

If there is something that I feel Pierre Poilievre or the Conservative Party has been inaccurately criticized over, I'll be among those defending him.

[Vosem]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

Yes, very many of them did. Some didn't initially, to be sure, but most histories of WW2 will underscore that Nazi occupation generally grew more brutal/genocidal over time, and by 1943, when Mr. Hunka joined the SS, there was very little popular support left for them on the ground. On March 20, 1943, the OUN -- who agreed with the Nazis on killing Jews and enslaving Poles and various race theories, and were led by the notorious Stepan Bandera -- nevertheless declared war on Germany. This was before it was even obvious that the Germans would lose; Nazi occupation was just that bad. Although non-Jews were not targeted for extermination by the Nazis, this should by no means be taken to mean that they were not also treated incredibly brutally; at the lower end, something like 3 million non-Jewish Ukrainian civilians were killed by the Nazi regime, and most estimates are higher than this.

To be fair, I'm not completely impartial here; even besides my ethnicity, which I've discussed on this forum before, my mother's mother's father (who lived to 2010, so this is someone I had long conversations with as a child) was, in 1941, pursuing a career in Stalin's Border Patrol in western Ukraine, and spent most of the next several years in a pro-Soviet partisan group. Most of the other members, in his recollection, were ethnic Ukrainians, not Jews. "Hitler is worse than Stalin" was not just a common sentiment in this period, it was the overwhelming sentiment. Hunka here is an incredible outlier, one that even the actual Banderites would not necessarily defend.

[WalterWhite]

Could the NDP, for the second time in history, crack second place? I expect there to be a massive exodus of Jews and non-Jewish progressives from the Liberal Party to the NDP.

[CumbrianLefty]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

There are some significant communities that used to exist in Ukraine and eastern Poland which no longer do because of Hitler. I think they might have had an opinion.

Yes, and there were up to 5 million Ukrainians murdered by Stalin.

Yes, we know.

The phrase "lesser of two evils" has frequently been employed in this discussion for a reason.

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...

So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

[MaxQue]

Seems that nobody is ready for a Speaker election (has been scheduled for October 3rd) and all the deputy chairs are running for Speaker, so the parties had to find a way around to be able to sit until then.

The Dean of Parliament (who will chair the election on Tuesday awyways), Louis Plamondon (Bloc) is the interim Speaker until then. Obviously, some ROC people are rather outraged by that.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Well, the Rota/Hunka affair seems to have died down. It was obviously huge and important news when it came out, but the immediate solution was pretty obvious - get Rota to step down and turn the page. I don't think the government did themselves any favours by being so characteristically slow to act. Trudeau and cabinet really tried the "all of us should be ashamed" thing, and even tried shifting the topic to "Russian disinformation", which came off really poorly and probably snuffed out whatever "rally around the flag" boost the India story gave him.

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence. That said, it was nonetheless a national embarrassment. The whole world got a hold of this, it gave free propaganda to Russia and India - to Russia, as a validation of Putin's narrative that their war in Ukraine is about "de-Nazification", and India, as a validation of Modi's narrative that Canada is the little kid at the table that has no business standing up to a "superpower" like India. It does not matter a bit whether it was Trudeau's fault, it was a shocking moment for the country. But the Prime Minister seemed to care more about avoiding political damage than showing leadership, which I suspect ironically caused more political damage.

If it didn't cause political damage, it's because Poilievre completely overplayed his hand, coming off as extremely petty. He basically made the classic mistake of interrupting your enemy while they're making a mistake. For the first time in months, he felt like more of a side character desperate for relevance. Thing is, no one cares what the opposition thinks during moments like this, all eyes are on the government. Attacking Trudeau would have worked had he dug his heels in and backed Rota, but Trudeau was never going to make such a sloppy mistake.

Overall, a pretty ugly moment that our politicians managed to make into yet another annoying political scandal that most of us tune out from

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

It's been...an eventful start to the parliamentary session. I suspect the Trudeau-Poilievre dynamic will get most of the coverage, but this India situation will be a huge test of this government's foreign policy chops. They handled NAFTA and the Huawei situation fairly well, but India's been a weak spot for years now, going back to the now-infamous 2018 India trip. As for the Conservative, they're coming out ahead on domestic policy, but that will also invite more scrutiny than it did before the polls shifted so dramatically. But I'm also watching the NDP, because they're in a unique position right now.
 
I genuinely don't get the NDP, but I find them very interesting, mainly because of the confidence-and-supply deal. I think the NDP's initial decision makes sense, the Liberals were slipping in the polls and feared an election, and the NDP would get to influence the government, which has always been their way of exercising power, sometimes successfully. But I don't think they were quite ready for the increased scrutiny that comes with increased power. I remember in 2019, Jagmeet basically went unscrutinized, because he was a pretty likable guy on the campaign trail, and nobody expected him to do anything, and that combination usually leads to favourability, but not electoral prowess. In parliament though, he's been fairly unremarkable, and he now faces the kind of criticism a government would - something very few in the NDP have experience dealing with, least of all a guy who's never been part of any government or even official opposition. The government is now very unpopular, and although the NDP isn't officially part of the government, it is what allows the government to exist.

So I'm curious to see what the NDP does under these new dynamics where the Liberals seem like they're out of steam. Because honestly, their deal with the Liberals is probably the only thing preventing a Singh surge. As unremarkable as I find Singh, he's very comfortable with the traditional left-populist message, and he pushes it all the time. The "stick it to the grocery CEOs" stuff is so obviously popular that even the Liberals are leaning into it - but that's the problem, it becomes a Liberal policy, it doesn't lead to NDP support. Singh knows he has to attack the government too, and he tries all the time. But those attacks are falling flat, because they're ultimately just going to side with the very unpopular government on anything of substance anyway.

I think the reason so many in the NDP feel compelled to prolong this government as long as possible is Pierre Poilievre. They really don't want a Conservative government, and understandably so, they don't see eye-to-eye with the Tories on literally anything. But they're hanging onto a sinking ship. Like, let's just remember for a moment that Canada is undergoing a major affordability crisis, unprecedented for millions of younger Canadians, and the crisis is felt most strongly among young people. You have millions of Canadians, particularly young Canadians, struggling with cost of living, frustrated both with the government and business. You could not make up a more favourable political climate for a party like the NDP. Add to that the fact that the Liberal Party is cratering, and this should be the perfect conditions to leapfrog them. And hell, maybe Jagmeet Singh can pull off what Andrea Horwath did in 2018 by leapfrogging the Liberals. But with Horwath, she was as much an opposition figure as Doug Ford was, if not more. People wanted rid of Wynne, and so did the NDP, and the people rewarded them with official opposition status, two elections running. Who knows if they'll actually be able to disrupt Ontario's Liberal-Tory tradition, but it's definitely a valid question. The federal NDP is in a position to do the same, and reach for that kind of position. Poilievre is very likely to get elected in that scenario, but who are we kidding, Poilievre is likely to get elected in any scenario. And about a decade later, people will be sick of him. Who will be the left-wing alternative? If the NDP actually tries to challenge the Liberals instead of half-heartedly criticizing them while keeping them in power, it could be them. But as things stand, the polling hit that the Liberals have taken is almost exclusively going to the Conservatives, and the Bloc in Quebec, but almost zero gains for the NDP, and some very worrying numbers in BC, which is almost always the most NDP-friendly major province. Why? Because when "mood for change" is strong, you don't gain ground by standing with the status quo.

[CumbrianLefty]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

[lfromnj]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

The media has mostly shoved her backstory into a "Russian misinformation" hole from what I have seen. There was 1 or 2 stories I saw that came out but couldn't find many others

[WalterWhite]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

[Upper Canada Tory]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

Party/ideological loyalties are not as fixed in Canada as they are in the US, so it's not uncommon for Liberal-Conservative swing voters to make up a large part of the vote in any given province (though it is somewhat rare in Newfoundland and Labrador, where the poll was taken).

Also, Poilievre's promise to expand the seal hunt is likely a large part of it since the seal hunt is a large part of NFLD's economy.

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

Party/ideological loyalties are not as fixed in Canada as they are in the US, so it's not uncommon for Liberal-Conservative swing voters to make up a large part of the vote in any given province (though it is somewhat rare in Newfoundland and Labrador, where the poll was taken).

Also, Poilievre's promise to expand the seal hunt is likely a large part of is since the seal hunt is a large part of NFLD's economy.

How large a fraction of Newfoundland’s economy are oil revenues? I know historically the province was extremely dependent on federal transfers, and correspondingly developed a political culture which was very statist/Republican-definition-of-socialist, which was still around as recently as the 2008/2011 cycles, but every time I hear any sort of allusion to Newfoundland’s economy or culture outside of federal transfers — where it seems like the energy industry and hunting are both very important — it feels like a WV-esque place that’s bound to move rightwards at some point. (And yes, I know in an absolute sense that the Atlantic provinces are poorer than any US state, which explains the dissonance to some degree.)

[Upper Canada Tory]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

Party/ideological loyalties are not as fixed in Canada as they are in the US, so it's not uncommon for Liberal-Conservative swing voters to make up a large part of the vote in any given province (though it is somewhat rare in Newfoundland and Labrador, where the poll was taken).

Also, Poilievre's promise to expand the seal hunt is likely a large part of is since the seal hunt is a large part of NFLD's economy.

How large a fraction of Newfoundland’s economy are oil revenues? I know historically the province was extremely dependent on federal transfers, and correspondingly developed a political culture which was very statist/Republican-definition-of-socialist, which was still around as recently as the 2008/2011 cycles, but every time I hear any sort of allusion to Newfoundland’s economy or culture outside of federal transfers — where it seems like the energy industry and hunting are both very important — it feels like a WV-esque place that’s bound to move rightwards at some point. (And yes, I know in an absolute sense that the Atlantic provinces are poorer than any US state, which explains the dissonance to some degree.)

1. Yeah, the rest of Canada used to make fun of NFLD for being dependent on federal transfers intended to raise the quality of social services for poorer provinces (known as equalization). However, the tables turned over time and NFLD did get off equalization, in part because of oil revenues, as you mentioned. Today, other formerly 'have' provinces such as Ontario recieve equalization, so NFLD makes fun of us hard for that nowadays. The irony!

Have province = province that does not recieve equalization
Have-not province = province that does recieve equalization

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/historic-first-ontario-in-n-l-out-of-equalization-1.339239
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/major-federal-transfers.html#Newfoundland

2. The energy industry has taken off in Newfoundland only relatively recently. Most off it is offshore oil. About one sixth of NFLD's revenues are from oil and it makes up about 11 percent on NFLD's exports.

3. Historically, NFLD's main industry was fishing, particularly cod, but it collapsed because of overfishing in the 1990s & mismanagement from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The government imposed a 10 year moratorium on cod fishing. This is part of why they were depending on government transfers for a while, though not exclusively so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_fishing_in_Newfoundland

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The important thing to note about the collapse of the Grand Banks fishing industry was they continued to fish for cod at increasing rates (and were encouraged to by the federal government of the day) even after warnings were issued by every possible environmental body in the 1980s. Which is why the scale of collapse was much worse than in the North Sea, where action was taken earlier and where stocks have partially and tentatively recovered.

[Upper Canada Tory]

The important thing to note about the collapse of the Grand Banks fishing industry was they continued to fish for cod at increasing rates (and were encouraged to by the federal government of the day) even after warnings were issued by every possible environmental body in the 1980s. Which is why the scale of collapse was much worse than in the North Sea, where action was taken earlier and where stocks have partially and tentatively recovered.

If I remember correctly, subsidies from the federal government to the fishing industry also contributed heavily to the overfishing of cod.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

She takes a personal hit because talk about Ukrainian Nazis draws attention to her grandfather who was a Ukrainian Nazi, sure. But most reasonable people can understand that being the granddaughter of a Nazi, doesn't make one a Nazi. Either way, I was just saying I personally don't think anyone in cabinet was responsible for Hunka's invitation, Freeland or otherwise.