Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[PSOL]

Absolutely disgusting, and the false equivalencies and downplaying by Ben Frank in his quest to defend the Liberals really is something.

This is what happens when you open your arms to fascists and refuse to do self-reflection.

1.It is not a false equivalency
2.The reality is the Soviets were neutral if not supporters of the Axis powers until the Soviet Union was attacked by the Nazis in 1941. For the people in nations like Poland and Finland and erstwhile nations like Ukraine, the reality is a lot more nuanced than the simplistic way it's being portrayed here.

I have not defended the government here, only that it will be useful to know more about this person before supporting easy grandstanding.

1. lmao it is
2. Soviet foreign policy did not differ from capitalist nation's policy on the Nazis and it was never a treaty to last. I understand many now would have loved for a mass culling of asiatic communists as was displayed in Parliament, but most residents of the USSR had other plans

The Liberals are going to lose, not by this but moreso by the housing crisis Trudeau refuses to address, and any wringing otherwise isn't going to stop the largely brought upon MAGA loon government to come.

Sad to see the virtue signaling Canadian Liberals go full Nazi.

Given Christie Freeland is herself a collaborationist cold warrior hellbent on fulfilling daddy's dream of a fascist state for muh heritage and to own the Mobik orc horde, this is just a foregone conclusion

[Benjamin Frank]

Absolutely disgusting, and the false equivalencies and downplaying by Ben Frank in his quest to defend the Liberals really is something.

This is what happens when you open your arms to fascists and refuse to do self-reflection.

1.It is not a false equivalency
2.The reality is the Soviets were neutral if not supporters of the Axis powers until the Soviet Union was attacked by the Nazis in 1941. For the people in nations like Poland and Finland and erstwhile nations like Ukraine, the reality is a lot more nuanced than the simplistic way it's being portrayed here.

I have not defended the government here, only that it will be useful to know more about this person before supporting easy grandstanding.

1. lmao it is
2. Soviet foreign policy did not differ from capitalist nation's policy on the Nazis and it was never a treaty to last. I understand many now would have loved for a mass culling of asiatic communists as was displayed in Parliament, but most residents of the USSR had other plans

The Liberals are going to lose, not by this but moreso by the housing crisis Trudeau refuses to address, and any wringing otherwise isn't going to stop the largely brought upon MAGA loon government to come.

Sad to see the virtue signaling Canadian Liberals go full Nazi.

Given Christie Freeland is herself a collaborationist cold warrior hellbent on fulfilling daddy's dream of a fascist state for muh heritage and to own the Mobik orc horde, this is just a foregone conclusion

Stalin certainly thought it was a treaty to last and had he not made the treaty the Nazis may not have invaded Poland.

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

From Wiki:
The Katyn massacre[a] was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia prisoners of war carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD ("People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs", the Soviet secret police) in April and May 1940. Though the killings also occurred in the Kalinin and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere, the massacre is named after the Katyn forest, where some of the mass graves were first discovered by German Nazi forces.

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1706077983897681956

[Benjamin Frank]

https://twitter.com/DrJacobsRad/status/1706320914021835105

Just curious: Do you support taking down the bust to Nazi Wernher Von Braun that stands outside the Marshall Spaceflight Center? There was a propaganda campaign to cleanse the record of committed Nazis like Von Braun during Operation Paperclip, but he was a committed member of both the Nazi Party and the SS who used slave labor. Or do you believe that Von Braun was a 'good Nazi.'?

Or that honoring Nazis in the present is wrong, but that past but ongoing honorings are fine?

Or even that when Canadian Liberals honor Nazis, it should be condemned, but when Americans honor Nazis, that 'it's complicated.'

My view is that if Hunka did what he's been accused of (which is apparently far from confirmed) that at a minimum the Speaker should resign, but I also believe that the bust of Nazi Von Braun should be broken apart bit by bit with a sledgehammer until all that remains is dust to be thrown on the dustbin of history.



From here:
https://nasawatch.com/hubble/rethinking-how-and-who-nasa-honors/

I find it interesting how so many of the comments there call for nuance, rather than the 'Von Braun was a Nazi, of course NASA shouldn't honor him!'

[Hatman 🍁]

https://twitter.com/DrJacobsRad/status/1706320914021835105

I have been unable to find exit poll data on how Canadian Jews typically vote.

How do Canadian Jews typically vote? If they vote for Conservatives typically, this might not make much a difference. If they vote for Liberals, however, this could persuade enough Canadian Jews to flip key seats across the country, especially if the 2025 Canadian Election is close.

I've done quite a bit of polling on this. One of my clients, JSpace Canada should be publishing a poll of Jewish Canadians soon which included a vote intention question. But to sum, Jews in Quebec are Liberal leaning and in Ontario they are Tory leaning. This is clear when you look at how Mount Royal and Thornhill vote.

[Hatman 🍁]

The Harper Conservatives made big inroads among Orthodox Jews, who previously had a low voter turnout. An interesting pattern in the GTA is that the Jewish community was clustered along Bathurst Street, and the more this community became upwardly mobile, the more it migrated northwards along Bathurst Street. These turned a few seats in North York and the York Region into play. The Jewish community in Montreal (anecdotally) became smaller but more Orthodox with the rise of Quebec nationalism. You can spot where they are clustered based on poll-by-poll maps, but they are too small to affect any seats.

Most non-Orthodox Jewish Canadians behave as one would expect: middle to upper middle class, with a somewhat socially liberal bent. They would be "naturally" Liberal-leaning voters, but could turn Conservative if the conditions are there.

But, anyway, I think the mood has shifted enough that Trudeau can be compared to the famous lettuce.

If Rota resigns what are the odds it flips in a by election? Seems like a fairly swingy liberal leaning seat.

If he resigns, he may still keep his seat in Parliament. But, the riding is somewhat safe Liberal seat, though the Tories barely eked out a win in 2011 (though, it was so close, after redistribution the Liberals still would've won it on the new boundaries). However, provincially it's a safe PC seat right now, but that's more to do with the MPP being the former mayor of North Bay.

[Oryxslayer]

The Harper Conservatives made big inroads among Orthodox Jews, who previously had a low voter turnout. An interesting pattern in the GTA is that the Jewish community was clustered along Bathurst Street, and the more this community became upwardly mobile, the more it migrated northwards along Bathurst Street. These turned a few seats in North York and the York Region into play. The Jewish community in Montreal (anecdotally) became smaller but more Orthodox with the rise of Quebec nationalism. You can spot where they are clustered based on poll-by-poll maps, but they are too small to affect any seats.

Most non-Orthodox Jewish Canadians behave as one would expect: middle to upper middle class, with a somewhat socially liberal bent. They would be "naturally" Liberal-leaning voters, but could turn Conservative if the conditions are there.

But, anyway, I think the mood has shifted enough that Trudeau can be compared to the famous lettuce.

If Rota resigns what are the odds it flips in a by election? Seems like a fairly swingy liberal leaning seat.

If he resigns, he may still keep his seat in Parliament. But, the riding is somewhat safe Liberal seat, though the Tories barely eked out a win in 2011 (though, it was so close, after redistribution the Liberals still would've won it on the new boundaries). However, provincially it's a safe PC seat right now, but that's more to do with the MPP being the former mayor of North Bay.

In 2021 this is one of those seats where Conservatives + PPC were greater than the winning liberals. Obviously there's more going on, but given what's going on in national polls (and not just most -CPC ones) it would be a flip, especially given the circumstances of a hypothetical resignation, unless the remaining Libs and NDP voters consolidate thanks to unique by-election circumstances and attention.

[lfromnj]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-poland-minister-extradite-1.6978266

Poland is also drumming up election baiting and wants to extradite Hunka. He probably deserves it but unlike a concentration  camp guard there isn't enough proof yet IMO.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The Harper Conservatives made big inroads among Orthodox Jews, who previously had a low voter turnout. An interesting pattern in the GTA is that the Jewish community was clustered along Bathurst Street, and the more this community became upwardly mobile, the more it migrated northwards along Bathurst Street. These turned a few seats in North York and the York Region into play. The Jewish community in Montreal (anecdotally) became smaller but more Orthodox with the rise of Quebec nationalism. You can spot where they are clustered based on poll-by-poll maps, but they are too small to affect any seats.

Most non-Orthodox Jewish Canadians behave as one would expect: middle to upper middle class, with a somewhat socially liberal bent. They would be "naturally" Liberal-leaning voters, but could turn Conservative if the conditions are there.

But, anyway, I think the mood has shifted enough that Trudeau can be compared to the famous lettuce.

If Rota resigns what are the odds it flips in a by election? Seems like a fairly swingy liberal leaning seat.

If he resigns, he may still keep his seat in Parliament. But, the riding is somewhat safe Liberal seat, though the Tories barely eked out a win in 2011 (though, it was so close, after redistribution the Liberals still would've won it on the new boundaries). However, provincially it's a safe PC seat right now, but that's more to do with the MPP being the former mayor of North Bay.

In 2021 this is one of those seats where Conservatives + PPC were greater than the winning liberals. Obviously there's more going on, but given what's going on in national polls (and not just most -CPC ones) it would be a flip, especially given the circumstances of a hypothetical resignation, unless the remaining Libs and NDP voters consolidate thanks to unique by-election circumstances and attention.

The best thing for the Liberals would be Rota resigning as Speaker, taking the fall, but not resigning as MP.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Anyway, who might get elected as Speaker in Rota's place?

[Benjamin Frank]

Anyway, who might get elected as Speaker in Rota's place?

Conservative Chris D'Entremont is the Deputy Speaker and Chair of the Committee of the Whole House
Liberal Alexandra Mendes is the Assistant Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chair of the Committee of the Whole House
New Democrat Carol Hughes is the Assistant Deputy Chair of the Committee of the Whole House

It's a secret vote but I don't know if the Liberals would be happy with a Conservative becoming Speaker even though D'Entremont seems to be neutral and has integrity.

There seems to be some ethical questions around Mendes.

[Hatman 🍁]

The Harper Conservatives made big inroads among Orthodox Jews, who previously had a low voter turnout. An interesting pattern in the GTA is that the Jewish community was clustered along Bathurst Street, and the more this community became upwardly mobile, the more it migrated northwards along Bathurst Street. These turned a few seats in North York and the York Region into play. The Jewish community in Montreal (anecdotally) became smaller but more Orthodox with the rise of Quebec nationalism. You can spot where they are clustered based on poll-by-poll maps, but they are too small to affect any seats.

Most non-Orthodox Jewish Canadians behave as one would expect: middle to upper middle class, with a somewhat socially liberal bent. They would be "naturally" Liberal-leaning voters, but could turn Conservative if the conditions are there.

But, anyway, I think the mood has shifted enough that Trudeau can be compared to the famous lettuce.

If Rota resigns what are the odds it flips in a by election? Seems like a fairly swingy liberal leaning seat.

If he resigns, he may still keep his seat in Parliament. But, the riding is somewhat safe Liberal seat, though the Tories barely eked out a win in 2011 (though, it was so close, after redistribution the Liberals still would've won it on the new boundaries). However, provincially it's a safe PC seat right now, but that's more to do with the MPP being the former mayor of North Bay.

In 2021 this is one of those seats where Conservatives + PPC were greater than the winning liberals. Obviously there's more going on, but given what's going on in national polls (and not just most -CPC ones) it would be a flip, especially given the circumstances of a hypothetical resignation, unless the remaining Libs and NDP voters consolidate thanks to unique by-election circumstances and attention.

No Green Party candidate, too - though I bet the PPC's over performance was due to there being no Green candidate (yes, such voters exist)

There is some realignment going on in Northern Ontario, and Nipissing-Timiskaming may yet be a Tory target. Its main industries are different than the rest of the north (hence why the NDP is weaker), but it is economically stagnant just like the rest of the region.

[Benjamin Frank]

The Harper Conservatives made big inroads among Orthodox Jews, who previously had a low voter turnout. An interesting pattern in the GTA is that the Jewish community was clustered along Bathurst Street, and the more this community became upwardly mobile, the more it migrated northwards along Bathurst Street. These turned a few seats in North York and the York Region into play. The Jewish community in Montreal (anecdotally) became smaller but more Orthodox with the rise of Quebec nationalism. You can spot where they are clustered based on poll-by-poll maps, but they are too small to affect any seats.

Most non-Orthodox Jewish Canadians behave as one would expect: middle to upper middle class, with a somewhat socially liberal bent. They would be "naturally" Liberal-leaning voters, but could turn Conservative if the conditions are there.

But, anyway, I think the mood has shifted enough that Trudeau can be compared to the famous lettuce.

If Rota resigns what are the odds it flips in a by election? Seems like a fairly swingy liberal leaning seat.

If he resigns, he may still keep his seat in Parliament. But, the riding is somewhat safe Liberal seat, though the Tories barely eked out a win in 2011 (though, it was so close, after redistribution the Liberals still would've won it on the new boundaries). However, provincially it's a safe PC seat right now, but that's more to do with the MPP being the former mayor of North Bay.

In 2021 this is one of those seats where Conservatives + PPC were greater than the winning liberals. Obviously there's more going on, but given what's going on in national polls (and not just most -CPC ones) it would be a flip, especially given the circumstances of a hypothetical resignation, unless the remaining Libs and NDP voters consolidate thanks to unique by-election circumstances and attention.

No Green Party candidate, too - though I bet the PPC's over performance was due to there being no Green candidate (yes, such voters exist)

There is some realignment going on in Northern Ontario, and Nipissing-Timiskaming may yet be a Tory target. Its main industries are different than the rest of the north (hence why the NDP is weaker), but it is economically stagnant just like the rest of the region.

Some of the North won't be economically stagnant with the 'ring of fire.'

[Benjamin Frank]

This is from another board and provides further context:

An interesting and ironic part of the Yalta settlement in 1945 was that citizens of pre-war Eastern European countries who served in ethnic SS regiments fighting against the Soviets - the Western Ukrainians of the SS Division "Galizia" such as this fellow, plus their counterparts in two Belarussian SS Divisions, two Latvian SS Divisions and an Estonian SS Division - were exempted by the Western Allies of being members of a criminal organization the way other Waffen-SS soldiers were and were not held accountable for crimes committed as part of their service. Rather, they were deemed "involuntary" participants in these groups (even if they (were allegedly) volunteers like the man in question) and given the ability to seek asylum in Western countries after the war without the threat of deportation back to the Soviet Union or other Communist-ruled Eastern European countries.

In an even odder twist, several hundred former Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS men were employed as guards at Nuremberg during the 1945-47 war crimes trials there, under US supervision wearing special black-and-blue uniforms. These men often accompanied convicted Nazi war criminals to the gallows or transfer to prison for long sentences.
-Mr Pouncey

[jaichind]

There is an EKOS poll with CPC lead of 20.  I wonder what the LPC numbers will look like after the "Nazi bounce"

[MaxQue]

There is an EKOS poll with CPC lead of 20.  I wonder what the LPC numbers will look like after the "Nazi bounce"

There might not be not much of one.

In Quebec, the Bloc was doing theur usual media tour putting 100% of the blame on the President, saying that, for once, it wasn't Trudeau fault in any way and accusing the Conservatives of lying for electoral reasons on that issue.

[WalterWhite]

https://twitter.com/DrJacobsRad/status/1706320914021835105

I have been unable to find exit poll data on how Canadian Jews typically vote.

How do Canadian Jews typically vote? If they vote for Conservatives typically, this might not make much a difference. If they vote for Liberals, however, this could persuade enough Canadian Jews to flip key seats across the country, especially if the 2025 Canadian Election is close.

Basically, if Jews in Quebec start leaning Tory after this, that could be a major problem for Trudeau. If this happens, could we essentially say sayonara to Trudeau's chances of winning another term?
I've done quite a bit of polling on this. One of my clients, JSpace Canada should be publishing a poll of Jewish Canadians soon which included a vote intention question. But to sum, Jews in Quebec are Liberal leaning and in Ontario they are Tory leaning. This is clear when you look at how Mount Royal and Thornhill vote.

[mileslunn]

While getting less attention, wondering how people think Alberta pulling out of CPP could impact federal politics?  It puts Poilievre in a tough bind as does he support Smith and wish alienating people in other provinces or does he oppose her and wish angering a good chunk of the base, particularly in Alberta.  Not saying would save Liberals, but Smith is probably biggest gift they have in terms of premiers.

[Benjamin Frank]

While getting less attention, wondering how people think Alberta pulling out of CPP could impact federal politics?  It puts Poilievre in a tough bind as does he support Smith and wish alienating people in other provinces or does he oppose her and wish angering a good chunk of the base, particularly in Alberta.  Not saying would save Liberals, but Smith is probably biggest gift they have in terms of premiers.

I suspect any decision on this from Alberta will be delayed until after the election, even if just to say 'if Poilievre is elected, we may not need to do this.'

[Vosem]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

[Benjamin Frank]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

[YPestis25]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

On this path lies only moral relativism.

If that is the argument we want to make then no one can ever do wrong or commit evil because of their subjective stance on the issue is all that matters.

[Benjamin Frank]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

On this path lies only moral relativism.

If that is the argument we want to make then no one can ever do wrong or commit evil because of their subjective stance on the issue is all that matters.

NO NO NO

Moral relativism does not mean not arguing that everything is subjective to the individual, it means considering the choices a person had available to them when they made a decision and not making blanket judgements.

Moral absolutism is what Republicans often claim to believe and it's one of the reasons why they so often contradict themselves, because frequently one of their moral absolutes conflicts with another of their moral absolutes. (And I mean the same person, not different Republicans.)

[EastAnglianLefty]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

Yes, actually. In the real world it is very often necessary to choose a lesser evil.

Do you think that people in Ukraine or then eastern Poland or the Balkans or Belarussia or Finland during World War II would have regarded Stalin as better than Hitler?

I'm aware that Hitler was also brutal to especially people in Ukraine and Poland, but I don't think for people in Ukraine that all that many people would have believed that Hitler was worse than Stalin.

There are some significant communities that used to exist in Ukraine and eastern Poland which no longer do because of Hitler. I think they might have had an opinion.

[Red Velvet]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-poland-minister-extradite-1.6978266

Poland is also drumming up election baiting and wants to extradite Hunka. He probably deserves it but unlike a concentration  camp guard there isn't enough proof yet IMO.

Would Canada accept Poland’s deportation request for this Nazi? Or will they protect him since he’s long been a Canadian citizen at this point?

[Red Velvet]

Do you think Stalin was better than Hitler?

What kind of question is this? Lmaaao

Are you really suggesting the US should’ve joined Nazi Germany to fight the Soviets instead? Or that they should’ve not get involved because both sides “equally bad”.

Just accept Canada ed up and that Ukraine has somewhat of a problematic relationship with WW2 dynamics and let’s move on.