Is refusing to have sex with trans people inherently transphobic?

[Old Man Willow]

Refusing to have sex with anyone for any reason is always acceptable and anyone who says otherwise is an utter creep.

[Skunk]

Depends on if their reasoning hinges on "they're not real women/men" or not, but it isn't inherently transphobic.

[Old Man Willow]

Someone can be unattracted to someone who has had anatomy changing surgery, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Again BRTD, are you talking about pre or post ops?

This really doesn't matter.

Imo if there is a completely passing post op who you would have slept with if you didn't know they were trans that is probably transphobic, but it's such a minor "who care" form of discrimination that I don't give a damn. Perfectly passing post ops not getting laid as much as they want is not top of the priority list.

[7,052,770]

Again BRTD, are you talking about pre or post ops?

This really doesn't matter.

Imo if there is a completely passing post op who you would have slept with if you didn't know they were trans that is probably transphobic, but it's such a minor "who care" form of discrimination that I don't give a damn. Perfectly passing post ops not getting laid as much as they want is not top of the priority list.

Is it really possible to "pass" to the extent that a man wouldn't know the difference after/during/right before sex? Is trans surgery that good?

I'm not being snarky - I honestly don't know the answer.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

15 years or so no, nowadays yes. The main difference is that they often won't self-lubricate to the same extent as a natural vagina, but they aren't like a dry hole.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

15 years or so no, nowadays yes. The main difference is that they often won't self-lubricate to the same extent as a natural vagina, but they aren't like a dry hole.

But what if I just don't want a relationship with anyone with a penis and with plastic surgery. Is that wrong?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Did you mean to use the pluperfect tense there rather than the perfect?

[MAINEiac4434]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

[JA]

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

[Mr. Morden]

Again BRTD, are you talking about pre or post ops?

This really doesn't matter.

Imo if there is a completely passing post op who you would have slept with if you didn't know they were trans that is probably transphobic, but it's such a minor "who care" form of discrimination that I don't give a damn. Perfectly passing post ops not getting laid as much as they want is not top of the priority list.

I think this is related to the question in this thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=173233.msg3721795#msg3721795

about whether being "grossed out by gay sex" automatically implies homophobia.  I don't actually think it does, at least not in the sense that most people use the term.  People can be disgusted by very random things, on which they don't actually cast any moral judgments.  I mention the example in that thread about feeling disgust at the idea of picking up a dead cat with your bare hands.  There's no "logic" behind such disgust, and it also doesn't necessarily imply moral judgment.  It might just make me feel weird, even to see someone else do it, yet it's not like I think it's *morally* problematic, nor would I treat anyone differently if I saw them do it.

I can imagine such a distinction also holding for sexual attraction to post-op transsexuals.  Sexual attraction is based on a ton of random things that carry no moral weight (e.g., maybe you're more attracted to blondes than brunettes, but that doesn't mean you think the former are better people, or should be treated differently by society).  Some of this is even wrapped up in perceptions about the person's identity or their past.  So I think it is actually possible for someone to initially be sexually attracted to another person, and then for that attraction to be killed by the discovery that they're trans (even if they can visually pass as cis), and yet for that person to not actually think that there are any *moral* problems with trans identity, nor that they should be mistreated by society at large.

Would they still then be transphobic?  I guess it depends on what you mean by transphobic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

Thing is, even that's not true. If you check out the Everyday Feminism article linked earlier, it specifically asks if a "genital preference" is transphobic and implies that it is to refuse to have sex with even a pre-op transperson. I also once saw a trans activist on Twitter tell a lesbian rape victim that her refusal to be sexually active with anyone with a penis, a sort of PTSD for her, did in fact make her a bigot.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

Saying your an a**hole for declaring that you would never have sex with trans women =/= demanding different rules of consent.

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

Thing is, even that's not true. If you check out the Everyday Feminism article linked earlier, it specifically asks if a "genital preference" is transphobic and implies that it is to refuse to have sex with even a pre-op transperson. I also once saw a trans activist on Twitter tell a lesbian rape victim that her refusal to be sexually active with anyone with a penis, a sort of PTSD for her, did in fact make her a bigot.

You try not being offended by "genital preferences" when people defining you as a disgusting freak because of genitals is the ultimate source of 90% of your problems in life and has led to many like you being actively murdered.

[catographer]

Frankly the true test for all of us would be to encounter a trans person that we find attractive. I'm a gay male, so for example if I find a transman who passes, is post-op and is hot. I probably wouldn't notice they were trans anyway, and their identity wouldn't be a turn off.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

But what if the thought of plastic surgery makes you queasy and therefore unattracted?

[Free Bird]

No. Refusing to have sex with an unattractive woman is also not misogynist.

This. It's just nature. And it works both ways (yes I just implied there were 2 genders).

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

But what if the thought of plastic surgery makes you queasy and therefore unattracted?

I guess? Kind of weird though. Plastic surgery is hardly unique to transpeople after all. I mean, would you not be able to date someone who have had a skin graft or a corrected cleft palate or something?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

HRT, although it will not effect bones, will cause shoulder muscles to atrophy; and of course fat redistribution to the hips and chest should relatively cover very masculine physices.  All depends on natural variation, of course - some are luckier than others (and people who don't start HRT until they're mid-thirties or so will always look "off", which is why middle-aged transgender women often come across as a spectacle for the gawping public).

also worth noting that the vast majority of transpeople will never have surgery of any kind. Well transmen normally have chest reconstruction surgery, but HRT is enough to reduce severe dysphoria.

[Tender Branson]

LOL @ the 7 people who voted yes.

It's extremely disturbing to think that a hetero person would like to have sex with a trans person.

I'm disgusted by that thought. And no, it's not transphobic.

[parochial boy]

I think this is related to the question in this thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=173233.msg3721795#msg3721795

about whether being "grossed out by gay sex" automatically implies homophobia. 

Eh, I am not sure they are that related - as you implied, it is possible to be disgusted by something but still understand that they are acceptable and natural for other people. You can be disgusted by the thought of gay sex, but still understand that it is perfectly acceptable for people to have, and in that respect it doesn't influence your behaviour or interactions with gay people.

On the other hand, refusing to have sex with a trans person does actually involve how you behave towards and interact with trans people; and in that respect, it has a more direct effect on them.

Not commenting on whether it is legitimate to refuse to have sex with a trans person or not (I don't even know if I would have sex with a transwoman), but I don't think it can be claimed that it isn't at least mildly transphobic - because you are modifying your behaviour towards someone because of who they are, in a way that does hurt them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

Saying your an a**hole for declaring that you would never have sex with trans women =/= demanding different rules of consent.

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

Thing is, even that's not true. If you check out the Everyday Feminism article linked earlier, it specifically asks if a "genital preference" is transphobic and implies that it is to refuse to have sex with even a pre-op transperson. I also once saw a trans activist on Twitter tell a lesbian rape victim that her refusal to be sexually active with anyone with a penis, a sort of PTSD for her, did in fact make her a bigot.

You try not being offended by "genital preferences" when people defining you as a disgusting freak because of genitals is the ultimate source of 90% of your problems in life and has led to many like you being actively murdered.

That has nothing to do with the fact that most non-bi people can not handle a certain set of genitals sexually, and that genitals matter a lot there.

Or that attacking a traumatized rape victim over that is f[inks]ing LOW.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

Saying your an a**hole for declaring that you would never have sex with trans women =/= demanding different rules of consent.

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

Thing is, even that's not true. If you check out the Everyday Feminism article linked earlier, it specifically asks if a "genital preference" is transphobic and implies that it is to refuse to have sex with even a pre-op transperson. I also once saw a trans activist on Twitter tell a lesbian rape victim that her refusal to be sexually active with anyone with a penis, a sort of PTSD for her, did in fact make her a bigot.

You try not being offended by "genital preferences" when people defining you as a disgusting freak because of genitals is the ultimate source of 90% of your problems in life and has led to many like you being actively murdered.

That has nothing to do with the fact that most non-bi people can not handle a certain set of genitals sexually, and that genitals matter a lot there.

Or that attacking a traumatized rape victim over that is f[inks]ing LOW.

My point is that there are pretty huge reasons that trans people are so bitter about "genital preference". Though it's probably not a common thing/in context. And there are quite a lot of straight people for whom being pre op wouldn't be that big of a deal. Potentially a majority of those who aren't transphobic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

Saying your an a**hole for declaring that you would never have sex with trans women =/= demanding different rules of consent.

There's nothing transphobic about being unattracted to someone with particular genitals, regardless of their gender identity. The issue of transphobia primarily arises in "post-op" situations where the trans person has the genitalia and the gender identity to which you're attracted, yet you cannot find them attractive because they're trans.

Thing is, even that's not true. If you check out the Everyday Feminism article linked earlier, it specifically asks if a "genital preference" is transphobic and implies that it is to refuse to have sex with even a pre-op transperson. I also once saw a trans activist on Twitter tell a lesbian rape victim that her refusal to be sexually active with anyone with a penis, a sort of PTSD for her, did in fact make her a bigot.

You try not being offended by "genital preferences" when people defining you as a disgusting freak because of genitals is the ultimate source of 90% of your problems in life and has led to many like you being actively murdered.

That has nothing to do with the fact that most non-bi people can not handle a certain set of genitals sexually, and that genitals matter a lot there.

Or that attacking a traumatized rape victim over that is f[inks]ing LOW.

My point is that there are pretty huge reasons that trans people are so bitter about "genital preference". Though it's probably not a common thing/in context. And there are quite a lot of straight people for whom being pre op wouldn't be that big of a deal. Potentially a majority of those who aren't transphobic.

So does that make demonization of a traumatized rape victim OK? Or for that matter anyone? Is demonizing anyone over their sexual preferences OK?

Also in regards to this:

BRTD, I don’t think you have to worry about denying sex to trans women.

Well no, as I have a cisfemale girlfriend.

It just strikes me as both bizarre and disturbing how some people want different rules of consent to apply in this type of case.

Saying your an a**hole for declaring that you would never have sex with trans women =/= demanding different rules of consent.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I take comfort knowing that pro-rape Scarlet is far, far away from me.