Trump Jr./Russian lawyer meeting: Jr. knew info was part of Russian Gov effort

[ProudModerate2]

whew...glad we cleared that up:

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LOL.
trump and Co is just one giant comedy house.
Do they really believe we are going to swallow this ?

[Fight for Trump]

whew...glad we cleared that up:

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In order to electronically submit Standard Form 86, you need to complete the signature pages. An implausible explanation.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

And according to the "new guy" the Trumps took printed copies from the Russians.

Why would they do that if they weren't impressed?

Which new guy? The ex-Soviet officer or the other mysterious attendee Trump Jr and Kushner forgot?

Trump Jr. Attorney Confirms Sixth Person Attended Russian Lawyer Meeting

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-jr-attorney-confirms-sixth-person-attended-russian-lawyer-meeting/

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Given Trump Jr's level of recollection and accuracy to date, should we be assuming that "interpreter" means "official coordinator with the Kremlin"?

[Virginiá]

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

What if Mueller ends up bringing indictments against a slew of people around Trump for actually colluding with Russia in some way or another? And if he recommends to the House impeachment against Trump?

What you're talking about kind of reminds me of the "grand conspiracies" people like to muse about, where a major conspiracy is so expertly and competently run that it is beyond movie quality - kind of like the 9/11 conspiracy. The government is really not that competent and doesn't seem to be able to keep secrets like that. Further, I don't get why a bumbling Trump-Russia conspiracy is even that unbelievable. Nixon committed treason in his pursuit of the presidency, so clearly we have some sort of history of candidates pulling all sorts of crap. I mean look at what kind of person Trump is - he is pretty much a sociopath - no morals, no ethics, says or does anything to get what he wants, treats people like garbage. This is really not something that is beneath him or his family, and it seems more and more evidence is coming out that is beyond what the deep state would be involved in.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

whew...glad we cleared that up:

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/us/politics/trump-says-son-is-innocent-amid-reports-of-russia-meeting.html

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[The Other Castro]

Watch there be a secret 7th person in the meeting, who turns out to be Putin Skyping in for a video conference.

[EnglishPete]

And according to the "new guy" the Trumps took printed copies from the Russians.

Why would they do that if they weren't impressed?

Which new guy? The ex-Soviet officer or the other mysterious attendee Trump Jr and Kushner forgot?

And what's the betting that this other guy was also linked to Fusion GPS and their NeverTrump/DNC paymasters  just like Veselnitskaya and Akhmetshin?

[EnglishPete]

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

What if Mueller ends up bringing indictments against a slew of people around Trump for actually colluding with Russia in some way or another? And if he recommends to the House impeachment against Trump?

All the evidence is pointing to this being a politically motivated witch hunt based around  manufactured accusations and 'evidence' produced by opponents of Trump. Why would you think that indictments, impeachments or even imprisonments of people being witch hunted would alter that fact?

[NeederNodder]

This is a quite credible theory I've seen on r/politics

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[Fight for Trump]

This is a quite credible theory I've seen on r/politics

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How is this a "credible" theory?

[HAnnA MArin County]

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

What if Mueller ends up bringing indictments against a slew of people around Trump for actually colluding with Russia in some way or another? And if he recommends to the House impeachment against Trump?

All the evidence is pointing to this being a politically motivated witch hunt based around  manufactured accusations and 'evidence' produced by opponents of Trump. Why would you think that indictments, impeachments or even imprisonments of people being witch hunted would alter that fact?

lol

[Yank2133]

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

What if Mueller ends up bringing indictments against a slew of people around Trump for actually colluding with Russia in some way or another? And if he recommends to the House impeachment against Trump?

All the evidence is pointing to this being a politically motivated witch hunt based around  manufactured accusations and 'evidence' produced by opponents of Trump. Why would you think that indictments, impeachments or even imprisonments of people being witch hunted would alter that fact?

lol

He is so delusional.

[ProudModerate2]

And according to the "new guy" the Trumps took printed copies from the Russians.
Why would they do that if they weren't impressed?

Which new guy? The ex-Soviet officer or the other mysterious attendee Trump Jr and Kushner forgot?
Trump Jr. Attorney Confirms Sixth Person Attended Russian Lawyer Meeting

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-jr-attorney-confirms-sixth-person-attended-russian-lawyer-meeting/

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Given Trump Jr's level of recollection and accuracy to date, should we be assuming that "interpreter" means "official coordinator with the Kremlin"?

The story just never ends.
It seems that little jr just cant get the FACTS straight. This is a known problem of the entire trump family.
I hope they throw the bastard in the clink for many years.

[EnglishPete]

According to the same source, the counter-intelligence guy said the lawyer has had some printed out copies with her but he.....ofc....doesn't know the content.....wait for the next bombshell.

Should be fascinating

[Yank2133]

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http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/politics/donald-trump-jr-meeting/index.html

But yeah, we should continue to believe anything these people say.

[ProudModerate2]

Atlas members,
Don't let EnglishPete derail this thread.
If his hogwash theories are not worthy of a response, don't respond.
If he tries to steer the topic somewhere else, don't respond.

[ProudModerate2]

Charles Krauthammer: Trump Jr. emails are evidence of 'collusion'

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http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/14/media/charles-krauthammer-donald-trump-jr-collusion/index.html

[EnglishPete]

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http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/politics/donald-trump-jr-meeting/index.html

But yeah, we should continue to believe anything these people say.

Well I certainly don't

[NeederNodder]

This is a quite credible theory I've seen on r/politics

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How is this a "credible" theory?

Should've stated "plausible" instead of credible. Poor word choice on my behalf.

[JA]

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

What if Mueller ends up bringing indictments against a slew of people around Trump for actually colluding with Russia in some way or another? And if he recommends to the House impeachment against Trump?

If they feel there is sufficient evidence to support that, then he should be indicted and impeached. I never said I didn't believe collusion was possible; I simply said I am, thus far, remaining a skeptic on the matter due to the parties involved.

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I don't believe in any conspiracies. Nobody is creating fake evidence to use against Trump or his team; I believe whatever they find is genuine. But as it stands there has not been any evidence that has amounted to transforming this investigation into an actual indictment of anyone. That could change at any time, especially considering Trump & co.'s sheer incompetence and stupidity, but so far, that has not happened. What I've been saying is that I distrust the deep state because I believe they have financial and political motivations to oppose the Trump Administration's position on Russia due to their desire to relaunch a Cold War with the Russians. That has been evident for years now. What also disturbs me is how Democrats have been so willing to ally with the deep state and Neoconservatives to, knowingly or not, fan the flames of a Cold War 2.0. It's what the deep state has been craving; look at Romney's campaign, the campaigns of other Republicans in 2016, the Clinton campaign, Neoconservative journalists and think tanks, etc... Democrats are cozying up with the wrong crowd for political purposes - and that's what bothers me. What happens when Democrats take power in 2020 or 2024? What will be our approach to Russia? What role will Neoconservatives and the deep state be delegated in that Administration?

Tl;dr Trump may have colluded with Russia, but Russia did not successfully hack our election or endanger our democracy. If collusion is proved, then he should be indicted and impeached. However, the motivation thus far by the deep state and Neoconservatives has been their staunch opposition to Trump's friendly approach to Russia, with which they want to create Cold War 2.0 and have been quite vocal about for years now. They've been making such noise about all this, and Democrats have been happy to aid them, for political purposes. It doesn't matter whether all these investigations amount to something or nothing; they want to destabilize and delegitimize the Trump Administration, not out of patriotism, but disagreements over foreign policy.

[Crumpets]

And according to the "new guy" the Trumps took printed copies from the Russians.

Why would they do that if they weren't impressed?

Which new guy? The ex-Soviet officer or the other mysterious attendee Trump Jr and Kushner forgot?

And what's the betting that this other guy was also linked to Fusion GPS and their NeverTrump/DNC paymasters  just like Veselnitskaya and Akhmetshin?

I agree that the Fusion GPS connection in this story is weird, and I posted as much when the story broke. But I think you're looking at the connection the wrong way around. Veselnitskaya's main jobs, and the two things she was most associated with before this whole meeting kerfuffle was as a lobbyist against the Magnitsky Act and as lawyer for Denis Katsyv, who was at the center of the greater Magnitsky case.

Katsyv was accused of receiving stolen funds from the Russian state and funneling them into a firm buying luxury Wall Street apartments. In 2013 he was charged by Preet Bharara for laundering money through a company called Hermitage Capital Management, which was founded and run by Bill Browder, a former ally of Putin who was blacklisted in 2005. In 2009, a lawyer working for Hermitage Capital Management died after being beaten and mistreated in prison on tax charges. The US in tern slapped Russia with the Magnitsky act, imposing sanctions against various Russian officials associated with the case.

The choice of Veselnitskaya to meet with the Trump campaign regardless of who sent her was almost indisputably related to her campaign against the Magnitsky Act. It doesn't make sense to send someone with her resume for any other reason. Trump Jr. himself said that discussion of the case took up a majority of the meeting, and he wouldn't have taken it had he known that was going to be the topic of discussion.

Hence, whoever prompted Veselnitskaya to take the meeting had to have some stake in the repeal of the Magnitsky Act, or at least making sure that the Trump campaign was in favor of its repeal. Yes, Fusion GPS is a subsidiary of a law firm which represents a company owned by Veselnitskaya's client Denis Katsyv, AND have reportedly been hired to investigate Bill Browder who campaigned for the passage the Act, but I don't see what incentive they would have to hold a meeting on repealing the Magnitsky Act.

If, as you say, Fusion GPS is part of an anti-Trump conspiracy and helped organize the meeting to entrap the Trump campaign, why would they bother sending a lawyer at the center of a prominent case, who then talked about that case for the majority of the meeting, when none of that discussion would be remotely damning to the Trump campaign? If the story "Trump campaign met with lawyer to discuss Magnitsky Case" broke on the eve of election day, it would have hardly been a blip on the news radar.

Sure you could say the meeting was just a formality and the real trap was the email to Trump Jr, but then there's the question of "what if he just did what anyone would expect him to do and go straight to the FBI?" Where would Fusion GPS be then? And if they sent the email just to entrap Trump Jr, and didn't expect there to actually be a real meeting, why, when he said yes, would they send a lawyer who has no information to give them, can easily be tied to their company, and one who really doesn't advance their alleged anti-Trump agenda in any way? Why not just send some guy in a suit with a tape recorder and ask them damning questions à la Project Veritas? Why have the meeting at all if they've already got what they wanted and can get away scot free?

Now, there is an interesting side story to all of this, as I mentioned in paragraph 4, which is that in 2015 and into 2016, Fusion GPS was hired to investigate Bill Browder. According to Wikipedia citing Fox News, "During the course of the case, Browder claimed that Fusion GPS had previously been hired to undertake a pro-Russia campaign to aimed at stopping passage of the Magnitsky Act."

So in the end we have this chain: Fusion GPS --investigates--> Bill Browder --secured passage of--> Magnitsky Act --campaigned against by--> Natalia Veselnitskaya --almost certainly involved in hiring of--> repeat

Hence the question of whether the Trump Dossier might have some of the Kremlin's fingerprints on it, and why I don't give it a whole lot of credence unless Mueller's investigation can independently back it up. Which then begs the question of why the Kremlin might hypothetically want the Trump Dossier to have been compiled, but that's a whole new can of worms.

[Silent Hunter]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Don't worry! Trump Jr's lawyer says he's just this guy, you know? Totally cool, no shenanigans at all.
Who is he? No one is mentioning that on either side. 
It does hurt Trump Jr's failing credibility even more, though.

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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-russian-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr-brought-an-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer.html

Yep. More lies from the trump and Co.

His name is Rinat Akhmetshin. He is a Russian-American lobbyist and a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence. He was born in Russia and previously served in the Soviet military.

I would point out that pretty much every man who reached adulthood in the USSR served in their military... but most weren't in counter-intelligence.

[Doimper]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Don't worry! Trump Jr's lawyer says he's just this guy, you know? Totally cool, no shenanigans at all.

Who is he? No one is mentioning that on either side. 

It does hurt Trump Jr's failing credibility even more, though.

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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-russian-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr-brought-an-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer.html

but hillary

[ApatheticAustrian]

Last person will be revealed in a few minutes.

i just don't get how it could be the last if 8 was the correct number.

would imply a translator AND goldstone were there.

[Virginiá]

Tl;dr Trump may have colluded with Russia, but Russia did not successfully hack our election or endanger our democracy. If collusion is proved, then he should be indicted and impeached. However, the motivation thus far by the deep state and Neoconservatives has been their staunch opposition to Trump's friendly approach to Russia, with which they want to create Cold War 2.0 and have been quite vocal about for years now. They've been making such noise about all this, and Democrats have been happy to aid them, for political purposes. It doesn't matter whether all these investigations amount to something or nothing; they want to destabilize and delegitimize the Trump Administration, not out of patriotism, but disagreements over foreign policy.

Right - sorry I wasn't intending to accuse you of being a 9/11 truther or something, but at the same time your post gave me the impression of some sort of malicious behavior by the intelligence community, to which my response was basically that often the people in our govt don't seem to be capable of executing the 'grand' conspiracies I was talking about, particularly against POTUS themselves, which would be a whole other level since that person would obviously install their people in the various agencies. I don't really have that must trust for them, but everything coming out makes it hard for me to believe Trump isn't guilty of at least a 3rd-rate scheme to beat Clinton using a little help from Russians.

Honestly, I don't know where the whole thing with Russia is going in regards to foreign policy, but I do know that they can't be screwing with our elections like this and we have to find a way to make sure they understand it. I'm not even sure to what extent we could even engage in Cold War 2.0 - Russia isn't nearly as strong, and they can't invade/occupy half/all of Europe again, at least as they are right now. In the end it comes down to nukes, and this has always been the case and will continue to be the case no matter what, especially since Russia has gotten a lot weaker and has acknowledged that they will use nuclear weapons far quicker if they feel threatened.

Further I don't think most people realize the extent to which China and Russia have been hacking us, stealing government secrets and proprietary I.P from the private sector. I like what Keith Alexander said about it, that it is the "greatest transfer of wealth in history." Perhaps he is exaggerating, but again, I don't think most people get how active and successful Chinese and Russian hacker groups are. As someone who did pay a lot of attention to the malware campaigns for a time in college, it's extremely infuriating to see Russia escalate this and to see our country seemingly do nothing in retaliation, mostly because our president was the guy they sought to get elected. If they did indeed do what has been alleged, we can't let them get away with this.