Trump Jr./Russian lawyer meeting: Jr. knew info was part of Russian Gov effort

[Nyvin]

lol at these grifters

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Let's compare it to his travel/security expenses

[Virginiá]

What does it take for you to believe there is a "possibility" of Trump-Russian collusion?

If everything that has happened so far isn't enough for some to even entertain the possibility that Trump is guilty of some sort of tom-foolerly with the Russians, then nothing will, except maybe video + audio of Trump hashing out the master plan with Putin himself, and even then, the most likely response would be a smooth transition from denial to acceptance and downplaying of its significance, as well as instant forgiveness. Most Republicans who deny this seem to have already written off the possibility of this entire scandal being true, and so they enter the discussion immediately assuming there is an innocent explanation for everything, even if they haven't thought of it yet. The side effect of this being that they tend to latch on to the first flimsy excuse offered, no matter how dumb, which in turn makes them look ridiculous.

The sad thing is, I don't recall the burden of proof nor the tolerance of scandal or incompetence being so substantial when it came to Democrats.

[KingSweden]

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Bob Mueller is in Not F'ing Around mode

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

lol at these grifters

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Please, RNC, do this. Republicans wasting their money and simultaneously tying themselves even further to the wretch faking it in the White House is a pure win for everyone else.

[Mike Thick]

lol at these grifters

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Friendly reminder that (since if this blows up into actual charges, everyone even remotely connected to the scandal on the Trump Campaign/in the White House is going to need a lawyer) this is an utter assload of money we're talking about.

[EnglishPete]

Don't know if it's been posted here yet, but Cernovich is postulating that Obama arranged this meeting so the lawyer could wiretap Trump Tower while she was there

LOL.
The Deplorables will swallow this whole.
I mean, if you can get them to believe that Obama was a Muslim and born outside the USA, then you can get those bird-brains to believe anything.

Says a man who has been pushing the evidence free Trump/Russia collusion conspiracy theory for months.

At this point what exactly would "evidence" be to you?   A video of Putin personally handing Trump a black briefcase or something?

What does it take for you to believe there is a "possibility" of Trump-Russian collusion?

Well if the evidence pointed in that direction rather than the opposite direction.

There are two alternative scenarios here, both of which involve conspiracies

Scenario A - A presidential campaign colluded and conspired with the Russian government for them to illegally interfere in the US election for the benefit of the campaign.

Scenario B - Political opponents of a Presidential campaign, both in the government and outside it conspired to set up a politically motivated witch hunt against that campaign to manufacture bogus charges against them.

Now neither scenario is, prima face, implausible. They both represent the kind of thing you might expect to go on in high level politics. So in which direction does the evidence point?

Well with all the faked and set up evidence that has been used, the obviously fabricated Fusion GPS dossier, the highly dubious Crowdstrike report that the DNC refused on multiple occasions for the FBI to verify and which the FBI accepted anyway despite Crowdstrike's questionable reputation. Now this transparently set up meeting from last year with a dodgy Russian lawyer linked to Fusion GPS and allowed in the country without a visa.

If the evidence starts pointing in the direction of Scenario A rather than Scenario B then I'll accept it. I'll turn the question around to you. What evidence would it take for you to accept the possibility that these charges and the "evidence" for them has been cooked up as part of a politically motivated witch hunt?

[JA]

I hate to be on the same side as EnglishPete, since our views could not be more different, but all this Russia stuff stinks to me. Not because I believe Trump colluded with Russia (I'd attribute any semblance of collusion to Trump & co. stupidity), but because this all seems far too convenient for powerful American industries. Suddenly, the bureau responsible for countless civil rights violations is a bedrock of our democracy? The same intelligence agencies that were rightfully trashed under Bush for lying about WMDs, overthrowing foreign governments, and torturing prisoners to advance the interests of the powerful Congressional Miltary-Industrial Complex (which is a conspiracy insofar as President Eisenhower was a conspiracy theorist), is now the ultimate source of truth? Neoconservatives like Krauthammer, Kristol, and McCain are being lauded as rational voices? Did I fall and hit my head, awaking in opposite land? These are the same people who've never met a war, bloated military and defense budget, covert assassination, staged revolution and coup, and violation of civil liberties they didn't like.

I guess it doesn't occur to anyone that the deep state may have vested interests in beating a war drum against Russia and fanning flames of conspiracy against Trump, with which Democrats have been happy to bandwagon? Perhaps it has something to due with the growing (and what should be deeply troubling) closeness of the military industrial complex and Silicon Valley, not to mention Wall Street interests. Sure, Trump's family business interests have likely wielded significant influence over his relationship with Russia, but so, too, does his lack of an invested relationship with the deep state. Can anyone point out where he has business involvements with this segment of the American power structure?

Despite all the raving about Russian involvement in the 2016 election, what did they accomplish? They didn't alter the outcome of the election in any way; at most, alleged Russian hacking revealed that the DNC was working to block Sanders and help secure the nomination for Clinton. And despite the allegations, which disappeared as quickly as they surfaced, that Russia hacked into state electoral grids, there's no concrete evidence for that either. The only genuinely worrisome hacking allegations are that Russia might've hacked into our infrastructure security and so on. Not to mention the rich irony of America - and the deep state in particular - up in arms over a country meddling in another country's election and domestic politics. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh?

Putin claims Russia wasn't meddling in our election; Assange asserts the source of their information wasn't the Russian state. Of course Putin's a professional liar, but Assange has no reason to lie for him; he still has credibility. And, honestly if it comes down to a matter of faith, I'd place more trust in Putin and Assange than the CIA, which has been perfectly happy to lie to advance certain political interests (WMDs in Iraq). As for this particular email scandal, of course Trump Jr. wanted opposition research on Clinton - every political team does it. Just not all of them are dumb enough to work with Russians, then reveal they worked with Russians. That only becomes criminal if it can be proven the exchange violated the emolument clause, which is questionable at best. Besides, if this opposition research was conducted by another country, like Israel, would it be such a big deal? Doubtful.

Basically, I remain agnostic on the subject because Trump & co., Putin, and the deep state are all habitual liars. Perhaps there is a shady connection going on that involves both the Trump campaign and Russia's meddling in the election. That's at least plausible and not outside the realm of possibility. However, it's even more likely that, the same deep state and public figures that have been trying to find a reason to initiate a Cold War 2.0 with Russia are using this as a perfect justification to escalate tensions against Russia, which benefit their vested interests. And Democrats have been happy to not only go along with that, but ally with Neoconservatives for the purpose of reviving their damaged political party by riding any anti-Trump campaign that they can. What worries me, and should worry everyone who wants world peace, is what they're preparing to do when (not if) they seize power over the state again. Considering the alliance Democrats have formed with Neoconservatives, I'd certainly expect their policies, rhetoric, and leaders to have important positions in the next Democratic administration. The result will be an extraordinary and unnecessary escalation of tension, coupled with an all-out cyber war, with Russia.

And that's all I plan to comment on the Russia-Trump stories.

[Gass3268]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

[BudgieForce]

I hate to be on the same side as EnglishPete,

Judging by this post, I dont think you do. Left and rightwing conspiracies are just different sides of the same coin. Sanders was robbed, deep state, Assange is innocent, Trump and company are too stupid...did i miss anything?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Don't worry! Trump Jr's lawyer says he's just this guy, you know? Totally cool, no shenanigans at all.

Who is he? No one is mentioning that on either side. 

It does hurt Trump Jr's failing credibility even more, though.

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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-russian-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr-brought-an-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer.html

[JA]

I hate to be on the same side as EnglishPete,

Judging by this post, I dont think you do. Left and rightwing conspiracies are just different sides of the same coin. Sanders was robbed, deep state, Assange is innocent, Trump and company are too stupid...did i miss anything?

Where did I state Sanders was robbed? Don't put words in my mouth. The leaked documents make it perfectly clear the DNC was working to ensure he didn't win the nomination, but even without their intervention it's unlikely he would've won the popular vote, let alone the nomination. The Deep State exists and any information you want to know about it can be easily researched, even through credible sources. It's not some conspiracy. What crime, exactly, is Assange guilty of committing? If it's the Swedish rape case, then I don't know if it's true or not, nor do I believe that necessarily makes him an unreliable source for leaked information. And what's that old maxim? "Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity"? As I said, perhaps there was sinister collaborations between the Trump team and Russia in regards to the election, but I'm highly skeptical of that. And, thus far, there has not been any evidence that'd disabuse me of that skepticism.

So, you can take your baseless assumptions elsewhere. It's not my fault you chose to hitch your horse to this crazy bandwagon.

[Hindsight was 2020]

What crime has Assuage committed? You do realize all the stuff he leaked was private property?

[Person Man]

What crime has Assuage committed? You do realize all the stuff he leaked was private property?

He is at least a fugitive before all of this even happened.

[Beet]

JA, I think your mistake is fundamentally taking sides based on who you like or dislike. I admit, that the CIA and neocons are more than strangebedfellows - ugly ones, but the wretchedness of those entities is quite independent of the likelihood that Russia would try to wreck American elections, or that Trump's circle would cooperate in those efforts. It's fair to say there's no character argument to be made in favor of the actual accused that, "they would never do such a thing, because of scruples."

As far as Assange, I have two problems with him. One is that back in 2010 he was accused of sexual assault by two women. If that is true, then he has certainly lied and it would be strange to say he is of good character. Most of his defenders who swear by his good character must be assuming that the two women are lying, but I have never seen any proof of this. To say he is of good character is to say they are of bad character, since it makes them false accusers. If he is to given the presumption of innocence of rape, surely they are to be given the same of false accusation? My second problem is that at the turn of the year, he promised to give himself up in the chance Obama pardoned Chelsea Manning. Making such a promise had clear benefits to him if Obama did not pardon Manning, since it would have enhanced his reputation as a principled man while making Obama/the US government look bad. But when Obama did pardon Manning, he still did not give himself up. How is that not then, a clear lie? I am no expert on Assange to be sure, but it seems he has definitely lied about this and thus cannot be called innocent.

Edit: Finally, I agree that the Democrats should not try to politically benefit from this or politicize this. I don't think it benefits them as much as some might think anyway - and it is also not fundamentally about relations with Russia as a foreign policy matter - but it should be a bipartisan issue that goes beyond politics. What this issue is about is nationalism, and national loyalty in a democracy.

[Hindsight was 2020]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Malcolm Nance is saying it was a specialist in negative campaigning named Rinat Akhmetshin
Edit: AP is confirming it was Rinta https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb314aca65797762a?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

[emailking]

My second problem is that at the turn of the year, he promised to give himself up in the chance Obama pardoned Chelsea Manning. Making such a promise had clear benefits to him if Obama did not pardon Manning, since it would have enhanced his reputation as a principled man while making Obama/the US government look bad. But when Obama did pardon Manning, he still did not give himself up. How is that not then, a clear lie? I am no expert on Assange to be sure, but it seems he has definitely lied about this and thus cannot be called innocent.

I don't think that's as clear cut as you make it sound. First of all Obama didn't pardon Manning. He commuted her sentence but effective several months later. Assange said he would agree to extradition if Obama granted her clemency. It would be hard to argue a straight pardon would not meet those terms, but that's not what happened. He's a weasel, but some wiggle room was left and he took it.

[ApatheticAustrian]

According to the same source, the counter-intelligence guy said the lawyer has had some printed out copies with her but he.....ofc....doesn't know the content.....wait for the next bombshell.

[Gustaf]

So, that's yet another lie from the Trump team and one that is potentially important right?

[ApatheticAustrian]

Foreign Policy: The private email of State Department's top Russia intelligence official has reportedly been hacked


.....................

[EnglishPete]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Malcolm Nance is saying it was a specialist in negative campaigning named Rinat Akhmetshin
Edit: AP is confirming it was Rinta https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb314aca65797762a?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

Interesting. Another Fusion GPS associate. No wonder Fusion backed out of testifying before the Senate next week

[ProudModerate2]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Don't worry! Trump Jr's lawyer says he's just this guy, you know? Totally cool, no shenanigans at all.
Who is he? No one is mentioning that on either side. 
It does hurt Trump Jr's failing credibility even more, though.

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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-russian-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr-brought-an-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer.html

Yep. More lies from the trump and Co.

His name is Rinat Akhmetshin. He is a Russian-American lobbyist and a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence. He was born in Russia and previously served in the Soviet military.

[JA]

JA, I think your mistake is fundamentally taking sides based on who you like or dislike. I admit, that the CIA and neocons are more than strangebedfellows - ugly ones, but the wretchedness of those entities is quite independent of the likelihood that Russia would try to wreck American elections, or that Trump's circle would cooperate in those efforts. It's fair to say there's no character argument to be made in favor of the actual accused that, "they would never do such a thing, because of scruples."

To me, it just casts serious doubt on the credibility of their claims. It doesn't dismiss the case or anything else; I still support an investigation and, as I said, it's at least plausible there was collusion. By no means would I rule that out. But I don't like how such an enormous number of liberals have been so ready and willing to believe whatever is put out by the intelligence community and supported by Neoconservatives. Let me put it this way: if these were allegations, with all the existing evidence, applied to the a President Clinton and her team, would there be an equal reaction on the left? No. And that's a good thing! Because we should remain deeply skeptical of our intelligence communities, rather than assume they're telling the truth or lacking undisclosed motivations.

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I was not speaking of Assange the person, but as Assange the head of Wikileaks, to the extent that the two can be separated. No question he's not a very respectable guy, and he even deserves to be in prison if the sexual assault allegations are true, but as head of Wikileaks has he said anything, on behalf of the "organization," that'd lead one to believe his statements were untrue? Put another way, has he ever lied about or mischaracterized the information or sources of Wikileaks information, as far as we know? I haven't heard of it.

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There's a substantive difference between serious investigations into these allegations because of Russian spying and Trump team collaboration, and what is currently being pursued. They're moving us to a position where, when President Trump is gone, there will be the Neoconservative and deep state wet dream of a Cold War 2.0 with Russia. That's what concerns me and that's why I question the integrity of these officials.

[EnglishPete]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Don't worry! Trump Jr's lawyer says he's just this guy, you know? Totally cool, no shenanigans at all.
Who is he? No one is mentioning that on either side. 
It does hurt Trump Jr's failing credibility even more, though.

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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/14/the-russian-lawyer-who-met-with-trump-jr-brought-an-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer.html

Yep. More lies from the trump and Co.

His name is Rinat Akhmetshin. He is a Russian-American lobbyist and a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence. He was born in Russia and previously served in the Soviet military.

And another guy who has links with Fusion GPS. The group who were being paid by Never Trumpers to attack Donald Trump at the same time as working for the Russian government. The same company that was later paid by the DNC and produced the dodgy Russian dossier. Maybe you're right. Maybe there were Americans colluding with Russian government operatives interfering in the election after all. The evidence is starting to stack up.

[Gass3268]

NBC: Former Soviet Counter Intelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer

Washington Post has confirmed NBC's reporting.

[ApatheticAustrian]

And according to the "new guy" the Trumps took printed copies from the Russians.

Why would they do that if they weren't impressed?