Israel general discussion

[Comrade Funk]

So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me.

I don't block people for dissenting opinions. I block people, like AlwaysBernie and IndyTexas, who are blind hacks and completely belligerent in their opinions.

I won't bother arguing with you because, as we both know, it won't end in any mutual agreement. However, I have no reason to block you.

Now, why don't you be a useful puppet and ignore the war-crimes of ISIS, Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas while you protest Israel.

I never understand this argument. Just cause Hamas and Assad are bad, doesn't mean Israel isn't doing really bad stuff too. Isn't it a bit weird Israel has the "let's stay majority Jewish" fetish while gobbling non-Jewish land?

[SATW]

So the target was a soldier, who is part of a belligerent occupation of a subjugated populace (which, on top of that, is slowly being ethnically cleansed) and the attacker is a terrorist? I thought there was supposed to be a distinction between civilian and military targets?

Why don't you block me as well then? I'm sure it will be just as effective as when DavidB. blocked me.

I don't block people for dissenting opinions. I block people, like AlwaysBernie and IndyTexas, who are blind hacks and completely belligerent in their opinions.

I won't bother arguing with you because, as we both know, it won't end in any mutual agreement. However, I have no reason to block you.

Now, why don't you be a useful puppet and ignore the war-crimes of ISIS, Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas while you protest Israel.

I never understand this argument. Just cause Hamas and Assad are bad, doesn't mean Israel isn't doing really bad stuff too. Isn't it a bit weird Israel has the "let's stay majority Jewish" fetish while gobbling non-Jewish land?

Israel isn't doing "really bad stuff" under any real definition of that term. If you think Israel's actions during the 2008, 2012, and 2014 Gaza/Hamas conflicts are "bad" then I want to see U.S. and U.K. military actions in Iraq thrown into international court, because they killed significantly more civilians in percentage and sheer numbers then Israel ever has.

In regards to settlement construction, I do not believe it is weird at all. The west bank is not anybody's land by international law and most of that land is not inhabited by anybody, so it's not "non-Jewish land." If Israel really wanted to take non-Jewish lands (whatever this is supposed to even mean) then it would've taken Bethlehem and Hebron already. Which, btw, will never happen. So this fantasy dream that Israel is taking over Palestinian-controlled cities is false.

The real double standard is this notion that Israel should be harped on for settlement construction when the Palestinian Authority has no real goal of making peace. Israel could be completely out of the settlements and the PA still won't sign any deal. But, of course, why focus on that?

The Leadership of the Palestinians are the sole people to blame for the lack of a Palestinian state. They have blown every legitimate chance for peace and statehood since 1967.

This whole issue would have been over in 2000, despite the whining of Anti-Israel, Leftist clowns like Robert Malley and Sid Blumenthal. But Arafat was making too much $$$ off being a corrupt terrorist.

Also, how is it a "fetish" to want to keep Israel a Jewish state? It is clearly a democracy that protects it's minority populations. So the negative connotation you placed with your statement is unnecessary.

[SATW]

Maybe I am miswording my statements by alluding to other countries sins, but that doesn't automatically mean Israel is hiding something or trying to take attention off itself.

The status quo, generally, remains quiet in Israel and the disputed territories until Hamas or the PA start spewing off terror attacks or terror statements. This is literally not the case anywhere else in the region.

Israelis work with Palestinians, Palestinians work with Israelis. Until their leadership starts spewing hatred.

[Hnv1]

Yeah I don't buy sh**t from what the soldier and his family said. I know the protocols there and if there was the slightest suspicion he had a bomb on him he wouldn't have been surrounded by officers and paramedics but rather isolated until he was checked. That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)

[DavidB.]

That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)

More racism by Ashkenazi left-wingers. Sad!

Didn't know he was Beitar. That improves my opinion of him even more. Now here's to hoping the Erev Rav will not succeed in this case. The people will not accept it.

Let's now move to the next junk poll, because while I tried to be objective in my first post on this subject, I see this is becoming a trainwreck

[windjammer]

Hello everyone,
After some thought, I have decided that I will follow closely what is going on Israel. If you don't mind, I have few questions:

1) Is Netanyahu popular? He has a 1 seat government majority, is the government stable?
2) Is there a chance the processus of peace between Palestinians and Israelians restart?
3) Is Netanyahu perceived as a moderate among the right?
4) What are the most important issues right now in Israel?

Thanks

[DavidB.]

I will answer them, but I'm not objective (no one is) and many of these questions are relatively subjective, so people (who actually know what's going on, that is) should feel free to be critical of it.

1) Netanyahu is relatively popular among the right, not at all among the left. However, even on the right, quite some people are tired of him, but they see him as a better alternative than the left. (I belong to this category). He's basically in power because he's inevitable. He successfully manages to prevent people from challenging his power within Likud, and the Israeli left is just too weak to challenge Likud/Netanyahu. Even if the Zionist Union would have been the largest party in the last election, it would almost have been impossible to form a coalition without Likud. The party is very strong among working-class people/Mizrahim, who continue to support it.

2) It will probably restart sometime, if only because the next American president wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize. Don't think it will happen this year, though. Obama is done with it, and both conflict parties don't seem to be interested in it.

3) Yes (but certainly not among the left). There are certainly a lot of people within Likud who are more to the right than Netanyahu. Perhaps pragmatist is an even better term. As PM, you have to take into account much more interests and people than as a Likud MK (or even a minister), so in some sense this is logical. However, Netanyahu takes it to a different level. I sometimes doubt he's interested in anything else than power, but that might be my bias (though many Israelis, both on the right and on the left, would agree with me).

4) The problem is that the conflict overshadows everything, which causes all other important issues not to be taken into account. For instance, the country suffers from crony capitalism, oligarchy, and high tariffs. Inequality and poverty are skyrocketing, there is a huge economic bubble, and the costs of living keep rising. However, Likud can afford to do nothing, because it will win the elections over people's concerns regarding the conflict anyway. That is a very sad state of affairs, in my opinion. At some point, this has to be tackled. There is quite some attention for this problem, which got picked up by protesters in 2011 and then by political parties Labour/Yesh Atid/Kulanu, but not enough to make a difference in terms of policy. Likud is very status-quo oriented and risk-averse, so they are not going to implement the necessary changes. Another important issue is related to religion-state issues. Should there be civil marriage? Should Haredim have to serve in the army? What, if any, influence should the chief rabbinate have? So I'd say conflict + religion/state + economy are the three most important political themes in Israel.

[windjammer]

Thank you so much

But if there is an economic bubble, if the bubble explodes (which will happen), Israel is going to have a rough time because of incompetent oligarchs, right???

[DavidB.]

I indeed wonder whether the economy will be flexible enough to deal with that in a good way. It's going to be hard for people who are already having a difficult time making ends meet, and this is one of the reasons I'd rather wait before moving there.

Oh, and regarding the government's stability (which I forgot to answer), they only have a one-seat majority and it will doubtlessly collapse before 2019 (normal Israeli), but this seems to be the best option for most parties, so they are fine for now. Theoretically only Kulanu and Bayit Yehudi have incentives to quit the coalition, but Bayit Yehudi's number of seats will go up in the next election anyway, so it doesn't really matter for them, and Bennett, who wants to be PM someday (good luck with that), will find the mainstreaming of the party more important than principles (which is why I don't support them anymore). Kulanu will be absolutely crushed, so better for Kahlon to stay in and try to exercise some influence, at least for now.

[Hnv1]

That soldier was active in Beitar Jerusalem far right organization and is generally a disgusting Ars I don't believe a word he's saying and I hope he gets the due sentence  (but he won't)

More racism by Ashkenazi left-wingers. Sad!

Didn't know he was Beitar. That improves my opinion of him even more. Now here's to hoping the Erev Rav will not succeed in this case. The people will not accept it.

Let's now move to the next junk poll, because while I tried to be objective in my first post on this subject, I see this is becoming a trainwreck

That's Hilarious because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

None of it matters Ofc as he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    

[windjammer]

Thank you again .

Could a deal be reached between Israël and Palestine ? I just read a few pages of this thread and it seems that clashs often happen, big tension .

It's sad because both populations seem to be suffering a lot because of this conflict

[DavidB.]

That's Hilario because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

Non of it matters ofc because he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    

The remark was tongue-in-cheek. That said, of course people use that word all the time, but there is a reason people also didn't find it acceptable to use the word on a Labour Party conference, and yes, that reason is racism and classism All this shows once again how the Israeli left lost any contact with the working class (or the "uneducated mass", as you like to call them; could it get any more elitist?), who love this brave hero and are sick and tired of the establishment. Sad!

I personally don't care whether the terrorist even appeared to have a suicide vest or not, and I also don't care for "right-wing" politicians preaching "humanism". I think you know where I stand.

[Hnv1]

Thank you again .

Could a deal be reached between Israël and Palestine ? I just read a few pages of this thread and it seems that clashs often happen, big tension .

It's sad because both populations seem to be suffering a lot because of this conflict

It's a possibility, it does not entail a logical contradiction but I wouldn't bet on it too much. Then again the ME is volatile, maybe after Abbas resigns and this third intifida takes it's toll things will look different. 

[Hnv1]

That's Hilario because I'm not "Ashkenaz" part for one grandmother. Also nothing racist about "Ars" as you would have known had you known Israeli society better. Also today a fellow soldier present at the execution said there was no fear of a bomb and he was bent on shooting him, so can we cut the BS and admit the srugim and the uneducated mass just want a free hand in executing Palestinian militants?

Non of it matters ofc because he'll receive a ridiculous punishment, but this incident shows us the bestiality the right sunk to, and the fake humanism the right politicians have to express when direct evidence for the consequences of their words    

The remark was tongue-in-cheek. That said, of course people use that word all the time, but there is a reason people also didn't find it acceptable to use the word on a Labour Party conference, and yes, that reason is racism and classism All this shows once again how the Israeli left lost any contact with the working class (or the "uneducated mass", as you like to call them; could it get any more elitist?), who love this brave hero and are sick and tired of the establishment. Sad!

I personally don't care whether the terrorist even appeared to have a suicide vest or not, and I also don't care for "right-wing" politicians preaching "humanism". I think you know where I stand.

The reason it causes stir is because some 100 Haaretz readers from Tel Aviv who care about identity politics caused a "stir" online, AKA no one really cared. Regarding the detachment from the "working class" (which in itself is funny for right wingers to go to) Israel doesn't have a working class, and even if it did it would not be the Sephardi population who are mostly middle class. Or as I tell fellow leftists, cut the crap this is not a class conflict it's a conflict between modernism & liberalism versus religious and ethnic backwards views.

[DavidB.]

The reason it causes stir is because some 100 Haaretz readers from Tel Aviv who care about identity politics caused a "stir" online, AKA no one really cared. Regarding the detachment from the "working class" (which in itself is funny for right wingers to go to) Israel doesn't have a working class, and even if it did it would not be the Sephardi population who are mostly middle class. Or as I tell fellow leftists, cut the crap this is not a class conflict it's a conflict between modernism & liberalism versus religious and ethnic backwards views.

My avatar might mislead you, but I am not your average right-winger. I am a right-winger for identity-related reasons, not for socio-economic reasons. I would have a deep red avatar if the left would be better than the right on immaterial issues.

Class remains extremely important in modern society. Of course the Israeli left does not want to analyze the situation on the basis of class, because that would necessitate them to come to terms with the fact that they have failed utterly in attracting support from working-class voters. Analyzing the situation in terms of "progressive liberalism/because it's 2016" vs. "those backwards, conservative, Jewish people" has always been popular among the left and it is exactly why voters do not buy the left's positions anymore.

"Israel does not have a working class" is a pretty lol statement. The fact that the country has a largely service-based economy does not mean people cannot be working class. Most Mizrahim might be middle class, but most of the working class is Mizrahi. The fact that someone with a blue avatar needs to tell someone with a deep red avatar to take into account class is a bit remarkable.

[Hnv1]

define working class? a working class as a Marxist "revolutionary agent" does not exist here or anywhere in the western world. I don't know how well informed you are in Marxist doctrine but trying to bend it to include Mizrahim is precisely why analyzing it to revolve around class is bogus. The fact of being poor does not make one working class, and it's definitely not congruent with Mizrahim in Israel.
Anyway in the Israeli market Arabs\Russians\African immigrants play a closer role to a working class than Mizrahim, I also disagree on you analysis as to why the left is failing with (a large segments) of voters.

FYI, Likud doesn't attract to much "working-class voters" as well. Most decile 1-3 voters vote for UTJ\Shas\JAL not Likud nor Labour (and surely not Lapid or Meretz)

[DavidB.]

The facts are clear: the people stand with our brave hero!

define working class? a working class as a Marxist "revolutionary agent" does not exist here or anywhere in the western world. I don't know how well informed you are in Marxist doctrine but trying to bend it to include Mizrahim is precisely why analyzing it to revolve around class is bogus. The fact of being poor does not make one working class, and it's definitely not congruent with Mizrahim in Israel.
Anyway in the Israeli market Arabs\Russians\African immigrants play a closer role to a working class than Mizrahim, I also disagree on you analysis as to why the left is failing with (a large segments) of voters.

FYI, Likud doesn't attract to much "working-class voters" as well. Most decile 1-3 voters vote for UTJ\Shas\JAL not Likud nor Labour (and surely not Lapid or Meretz)

As a political scientist I know my concepts, thank you very much. While the working class will bring about the revolution according to Marxist theory, it does not have to be revolutionary in order to be (though deteriorating conditions should make the working class more revolutionary). Therefore, it is irrelevant that the working classes in the West and in Israel are not revolutionary (yet). The working class, broadly speaking, is the class that is subject to exploitation of the upper class.

And yes, class is relevant in Israel, both socially and electorally. Of course being poor does not automatically render one working class, but the poor are often working class. Similarly, of course Haredim, Arabs and African immigrants are often poorer than Mizrahim (and are often working-class too), yet this doesn't change that if one combines the working class and the lower middle-class, who are struggling due to the increase of inequality and the rising costs of living (and it is hard to really differentiate between the lower-middle class and the working class nowadays), Mizrahim will easily make up the largest percentage. As much as you and others like to ignore it, talking about "the uneducated masses" in Israel has a non-Ashkenazi ethnic undertone. Of course the poorest people in Israel generally vote UTJ/Shas/JL (though Likud will already be a lot larger than the left among this group), but if you take into account people who are one or two steps higher on the ladder, the picture changes dramatically and Likud will easily be the most popular party. And of course Lapid's voters are decidedly middle-class/upper-middle class, and Meretz's even more so. (Don't know why you brought that up tbh. My only point was that Yesh Atid and Labour have been talking about economic inequality more than other parties, but I absolutely didn't say their electorate is working class, which would be nonsense.)

The point is that even without taking into account Israeli Arabs and Haredim, class conflict is more prevalent in Israel than, for instance, in most Western European societies (which are much more egalitarian), even if it is usually not interpreted as such.

But I don't think we are going to agree on this, and I'm really not going to spend more time on this, because it seems fruitless. Shavua tov.

[Hnv1]

A. because popular opinion on matters is intrinsically true

B. I'm not going to debate Marx but a major factor in being working class is the alienating process of monotone work for hour and hours a day in the production of a commodity (which is of the highest value to the human nature) and being stripped of it by the manufacturing process that makes one a member of the working class. I don't see this conditions in the western world, I also doubt that the poorer sections of society are in the risk of being cut dry by the production process, they're actually quite stable nowadays (in being in crappy conditions), but rather the middle class is.

C. pardon me but I'm not all that emphatic for your likudnik lower middle class, I don't think they're doing all that bad and I actually think they profit from the continuation of the conflict. So yeah shocking a left wing voter who doesn't think Mizrahim are voting against their interests. how racist.

D. I think you are mistaken and the situation here is much less class-based then Europe (at least less than the UK\DE\FR). I think this is an inaccurate description of reality.

E. The uneducated mass is not synonymous  with Mizrahim especially not in 2016 where not so many years ago in my elitist haven of the Hebrew Uni law faculty there were even numbers of Mizrahim and Ashkenazim. Or Mizrahim are 45% of the upper class and are fully represented in the affluent regions of Israel. It's related to Mizrahim of the periphery (who are mostly Moroccan and Yemenites) but also Russians, Romanians and many more. It's a geographic term not an ethnic one

[DavidB.]

C. pardon me but I'm not all that emphatic for your likudnik lower middle class, I don't think they're doing all that bad and I actually think they profit from the continuation of the conflict. So yeah shocking a left wing voter who doesn't think Mizrahim are voting against their interests. how racist.

Not sure if you're implying I think they are voting against their interest, but let's clear that up: I definitely don't think they are voting against their interest and I'm glad you, at least, do not fall for this (but only because you don't acknowledge class in the first place) idea, which is indeed racist. Conflict/territory related issues are the main division in Israeli politics, and people who are traditional and have a right-wing view on the conflict vote for parties that respect traditional people and have a right-wing view on the conflict. It is sad Likud does not pursue policies that benefit these people economically and instead perpetuates crony capitalism, but the immaterial is much more important for people than the material, and as long as the left continues to pretend Israel is (or should be) just another Western European modern state and continues to be out of touch with the working class and the lower middle class, these people will rightly continue to vote for parties on the right. It is perfectly rational for people not to vote for parties that disrespect their identity and their heritage.

E. The uneducated mass is not synonymous  with Mizrahim especially not in 2016

never said this

[windjammer]

Apparently there is a big controversy with an Israeli soldier killing a terrorist.

I dont understand the controversy, can someone explain please?

[Hnv1]

Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation. As they had very hard time passing so things related to it last time I will not go far to speculate we will have elections by the end of year. Especially considering Sarah Netanyahu legal problems and shatters with the Haredi over the Western Wall.

[DavidB.]

Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation.

Haven't been following this. Could you explain which parties are for, which parties are against, and why?

[Hnv1]

Back to politics:
The Supreme court annulled a part of the natural gas government decision (fascinating decision in constitutional law here) so the government will have to pass it as primary legislation.

Haven't been following this. Could you explain which parties are for, which parties are against, and why?

The situation is rather ambiguous. Kulano are sitting on the fence here with Kachlon claiming he cannot vote due to "conflict of interests" (which is problematic because MKs are not forced by conflicts of interests in their votes). Also, some of their MKs seem to oppose the deal like Azaria. In Likud, Haim Katz appears to be against. Now without those 3 Netanyahu doesn't seem to have majority (Liberman's position is far from clear). The clear parties against are Labour and Meretz (Lapid's position is unclear right now) and the parties for are Likud and JH to a degree. Shas and Kachlon are trying to distance themselves from this. Liberman...he just enjoys tormenting BB

The situation is complicated because I think Lapid would have loved to support it without "the balancing article" that was struck down in court (and well if Likud wouldn't have profit from it).

If Netanyahu wouldn't get a majority for this I think he'll have to go to elections again. The deal with private foreign companies just looks bad to the public (Yechimovic is playing very smart here) especially considering the house of cards kind of way the deal was made. I for one would probably had supported the deal if Steiniz hadn't pulled his shenanigans and took a piss out of the administrative law here.

So this, with Sarah Netanyahu's coming criminal charge, and the closing of the option of adding ZU to the government are pretty big mines coming this summer and I believe they're gonna throw us to another election by December

[windjammer]

How powerful is the Supreme Court in Israel?

[Hnv1]

How powerful is the Supreme Court in Israel?

Popular opinion: Almighty, striking laws left and right, actual ruler, most activist court in the world
Opinion of most lawyers and those who actually follow the cases and judicial policy: trying his best to keep out of the way (even in the heyday of the 90s) but every now and then is forced to act when government plays chicken with them.

Generally the court doesn't nullify too many laws or administrative acts but the government here is bent on doing things ultra vires and against the legal framework so the court is forced to intervene. Current chief justice Naor is a conservative judge and from a right wing background and still was forced to strike down the refugee detention act three times.
The problem is image, the old chief justice Barak declared the ability to strike down primary legislation as unconstitutional on fairly shaky grounds in 94. The fact that he had an "in your face" image with his decisions regarding human rights and church-state relations also didn't help.

The court here will never dare to rule over SSM\civil union, the actual legality of the settlements, or major constitutional issues. But the right still takes a stab every time they decide against the government.