Is Islam a threat to the West?

[Earth]

I'm not saying Christianity is better than Islam.  I'm not saying everybody that is Muslim is blowing sh**t up.  I'm saying that there is something in the religion that tends to make certain types of people very willing to blow sh**t up.  Ignoring that fact and placing the majority of blame on the west comes across, to me at least, as a cop out.

I don't think it's a cop out at all, I think overall, the west doesn't get serious blame, but like everything else co-oped by centrist, comfortable liberals, it's become a cliche, but still close to the truth. It's not a cop out so long as the burden still comes down to those willing to exploit religion in order to get their demands met. "The west fu*ked you up in some ways, but get a grip", to put it lightly.

I don't necessarily think it's something within the religion, but within it's cultural elements that subsume religion. It's the environment that instills this radicalization, and religion is pinned to it. It's a framework developed with the tools one has; the response to political repression, poverty (for those radicals that aren't actually well off engineering students!), occupation; the religious will most likely attempt to find a rationale within the ideas he holds firmly to believe.

I.e. abortion clinic bombers, or murderers of doctors; the impetus for this extreme pro-life stance doesn't come from the religion, but externals, and religion is subsumed into it. One's ideology is shaped by new ideas, but also by the ones they already have, to make sense of new information.

And I think we really aren't as far apart here as would seem.  We both agree that western intervention plays a part, I just think it's a much smaller part.

Neither of us know the true extent, but yeah, I agree.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

(even though everyone knows Islam is not a race!)

And yet no one thinks Albanian when they hear the word Muslim!

Nice try, Office.

Are you saying I (or anyone else) "prefer" Albanian Muslims to other Muslims? Or that I consider only Arab Muslims to be radical?

And how would it matter even if it were the case? Islam still isn't a race, and you're still looking for an opportunity to play the race card.

[Earth]

I brought up race because it's an important factor in anti-muslim xenophobia. No frightened american, or for that matter western european, is going to think of white muslims, but of the 'brown hoard' or the asians, either 'invading' their country, or trying to attack it.

[Platypus]

I brought up race because it's an important factor in anti-muslim xenophobia. No frightened american, or for that matter western european, is going to think of white muslims, but of the 'brown hoard' or the asians, either 'invading' their country, or trying to attack it.

If that's true (and that's doubtful), wouldn't it largely be because the vast majority of islamic immigrants to the west come from the 'brown' areas as you put it?

[Earth]

How does that negate what I've said? Because it is the "browns" that come over, or move to europe, and they're the ones doing engaging in violence, makes the racial issue disappear? I don't see how it does, or that Islam as a whole is held responsible.

[dead0man]

Now I'm confused.  Is it culture, religion or race that makes somebody want to stab an artist because he is offended by the artist's works?

[Earth]

Why would race even be the variable?

[dead0man]

I don't know, I get confused easy.  I blame video games.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If we are going to assign blame for our problems to a religion, it ought to be Christianity.  Christians commit far more crimes in the US every year than Muslims.  But that's stupid.

Big difference though, they don't commit the crimes in the name of their religion.

Many did in the past, and some do today. Any religion had crimes committed in its name.

[Dr. Cynic]

Inasmuch as christianity is a threat to the east. It's an imaginary threat. As always it's the type of people who hold such violently zealous beliefs that are threatening rather than a religion itself.

[J. J.]

I would consider Islam part of the West, especially in its early centuries and in the early modern period.

[Franzl]

If we are going to assign blame for our problems to a religion, it ought to be Christianity.  Christians commit far more crimes in the US every year than Muslims.  But that's stupid.

Big difference though, they don't commit the crimes in the name of their religion.

Many did in the past, and some do today. Any religion had crimes committed in its name.

The past is irrelevant to the current discussion. Yes, crimes were committed in the name of Christianity, and yes, they were awful terrible crimes, but that in no way justifies or explains what is going on today.

And how many crimes committed in the name of religion by Christians can you name in recent times? Sure, you might find the occassional idiot....but to equate it to organized Islamic terrorism (i.e. people being recruited to blow up airplanes) is very dishonest.

[dead0man]

Nations are still killing people for blasphemy in places.  No, it's not a threat to the west, but it's a threat to the people that live places where it is the majority religion.  Especially if they dare to not follow the exact rules of the place.  Or sometimes, even if they do.  It's a threat to people in the West that step away from the crowd and dare to taunt them.  The crowd should step forward with them but most of us are pussies.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If we are going to assign blame for our problems to a religion, it ought to be Christianity.  Christians commit far more crimes in the US every year than Muslims.  But that's stupid.

Big difference though, they don't commit the crimes in the name of their religion.

Many did in the past, and some do today. Any religion had crimes committed in its name.

The past is irrelevant to the current discussion. Yes, crimes were committed in the name of Christianity, and yes, they were awful terrible crimes, but that in no way justifies or explains what is going on today.

The past is relevant. Not to justify anything (that sounds like a strawman), but to understand that killing people in the name of a religion is pretty commonplace and certainly not a muslim specificity.

[dead0man]

Historically, sure, but not presently.  How long do the rest of us have to wait before it's ok to say it's a bad thing to do now?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Historically, sure, but not presently.  How long do the rest of us have to wait before it's ok to say it's a bad thing to do now?

Strawman again. It's pretty annoying to have to discuss that way each time we talk about certain subjects.

It's always been a bad thing and it has never been the point.

[Franzl]

Historically, sure, but not presently.  How long do the rest of us have to wait before it's ok to say it's a bad thing to do now?

Strawman again. It's pretty annoying to have to discuss that way each time we talk about certain subjects.

He's right though....the present is relevant, and Islam most certainly has far more people willing to kill people for their religion. It's just a conclusion, nothing more. Doesn't mean Islam itself is necessarily a problem.....but you get the picture.

[dead0man]

Historically, sure, but not presently.  How long do the rest of us have to wait before it's ok to say it's a bad thing to do now?

Strawman again. It's pretty annoying to have to discuss that way each time we talk about certain subjects.

It's always been a bad thing and it has never been the point.

Fine....then I'll just stick with the "historically, sure, but not presently" comment.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So, what do you want to demonstrate by saying Islam has more people killed in its name today ? There are many economical, sociological and geopolitical factor that could explain that, and I don't know where you'd find any ideological explanation which is inherent to Islam.

[dead0man]

So, what do you want to demonstrate by saying Islam has more people killed in its name today ?

I want to demonstrate that more people are killed in the name of Islam today than any other religion...by a long shot.  Just reading you admit that is a win in my book.

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Of course.  But aren't there the same excuses for such violence all over the world, yet most of the violence is being perpetrated by one type of person, the type of person that follows Islam.  Again, I'm not saying Islam is bad.  I'm not saying all Muslims are blowing or wanting to blow sh**t up.  I'm saying Islam seems to be a very common trait amongst the most messed up of atrocities.  I'm saying ignoring that or waving it away as just religious people being religious is a cop out.

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Other than Islam itself.  Or at least a disturbingly common trait inherent to Islam.  Again, I'm not saying all Muslims are bad.  I'm saying a large number of them are doing horrible things in the name of their religion.

[Franzl]

So, what do you want to demonstrate by saying Islam has more people killed in its name today ? There are many economical, sociological and geopolitical factor that could explain that, and I don't know where you'd find any ideological explanation which is inherent to Islam.

There might be no ideological reasons, but as deadman says, there is certainly a strong corelation. Poor people in Haiti don't blow people up...poor people in China don't either.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I want to demonstrate that more people are killed in the name of Islam today than any other religion...by a long shot.  Just reading you admit that is a win in my book.

Oh, so reading that I admit something I never denied is a win in your book ? Funny.

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All geographical areas are different both sociologically, economically and politically. You seem to view the "Third World" as a coherent block with similar characteristics. I'm not saying poverty => terrorism. I'm saying a complicated intrication of several complicated factors could explain terrrorism as another could explain the crusades or the inquisition. Human sciences can help finding answers to these questions, but certainly not prejudices and easy ideological shortcuts.

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You still fail to demonstrate how Islam is in any way tied with terrorism. Yes, there is a correlation, and so ? I think you know statistics well enough to understand a mere correlation means nothing. So, congratulations, you proved that "a large number of them are doing horrible things in the name of their religion", and that's alll. You can't draw any conclusion from that.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

No probably not.


 

I want to demonstrate that more people are killed in the name of Islam today than any other religion...by a long shot.  Just reading you admit that is a win in my book.

Oh, so reading that I admit something I never denied is a win in your book ? Funny.

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All geographical areas are different both sociologically, economically and politically. You seem to view the "Third World" as a coherent block with similar characteristics. I'm not saying poverty => terrorism. I'm saying a complicated intrication of several complicated factors could explain terrrorism as another could explain the crusades or the inquisition. Human sciences can help finding answers to these questions, but certainly not prejudices and easy ideological shortcuts.

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You still fail to demonstrate how Islam is in any way tied with terrorism. Yes, there is a correlation, and so ? I think you know statistics well enough to understand a mere correlation means nothing. So, congratulations, you proved that "a large number of them are doing horrible things in the name of their religion", and that's alll. You can't draw any conclusion from that.

Where does prejudice or ideological shortcuts come in? He wasn't just talking about Terrorism, either.  If Iran stones a gay to death, I think you have the right on impulse to say "Thats wrong and it shouldn't happen". Just because the country is muslim, doesn't give it the right to pretend its 1453, just like any other country doesn't have that right. It also happens that most of the nations who still practice that due so because they have sharia law in place. Why is Saudi Arabia or Iran any different then South Africa or any other country that violates the Civil Rights of its own citizens? Why must we hessitate before showing outrage at that kind of thing. 

[GMantis]

Not really, but its followers certainly are.

[feeblepizza]

Only radical Muslims who choose to pervert their religion for political gain.