Is Islam a threat to the West?

[Phony Moderate]

Maybe.

[Franzl]

No, of course not, but some muslims are (a quite small minority overall).

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No.

[dead0man]

No, of course not, but some muslims are (a quite small minority overall).

This.  No, Islam isn't going to "take over" the West, but there are individuals in the religion that are a threat.  Certain locations have issues and those issues may grow before they fade away to history, but the faith is just too nutty for the West to embrace at large.

[Earth]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

[angus]

Maybe.

That's the thinking that made the near east the backwater it is today.

Ever wonder why algebra has an arabic name?  Or all those chemistry words like alcohol, alkali, etc?  It's because the Arabs invented all that stuff.  The keepers of what would one day evolve into the natural sciences (after galileo sort of popularized experimentation as a key ingredient of the scientific method), were in the great learning centers of Damascus, Cairo, and Baghdad.  But after a bunch of religious fanatics and terrorists set forth from their medieval villages and set about attacking them because they wanted to take back the holy lands from infidels, the sort of circled the wagons.  They stopped being so welcoming to foreigners.  The enlightened ones closed themselves off from the world and forgot what they'd learned.  Sort of became ignorant.  Of course in those days the holy warriors were Europeans and the infidels were the hamito-semitic peoples of the Levant, but history repeats itself.  Except this time the holy warriors are hamito-semitic peoples from the desert and the infidels are the European peoples.  But when this new breed of infidels begin to actually buy into the wagon-circling menatlity, they too will choke off commerce.  Already it is happening.  And already we are becoming ignorant. 

Okay, that was all a bit of an oversimplification, but I seriously hope that none of the various tribes of white people really believe that Islam is a threat to its way of life.

[dead0man]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

But hasn't the west "caused trouble" all over the third world?  Why don't we have Brazilians flying planes into buildings and blowing buses up in Lisbon?  Or southern Africans?  Or Samoans?  We (the west) dicked the Phillipines around for hundreds of years and they certainly have their share of nastiness today...guess what religion the nastiest there follow?

I'm not saying we don't deserve some of the blame, we do, but I think some of the clergy encouraging the nutters on the ground deserve a lot more of it (and the nutters themselves of course).  Do we blame all drivers every time there is an oil spill?  Do we blame potheads in Chicago for violence in northern Mexico?

[The Mikado]

http://www.amazon.com/Orientalism-Edward-W-Said/dp/039474067X

[Earth]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

But hasn't the west "caused trouble" all over the third world?

Yes it has.

I'm not saying we don't deserve some of the blame, we do, but I think some of the clergy encouraging the nutters on the ground deserve a lot more of it (and the nutters themselves of course).  Do we blame all drivers every time there is an oil spill?  Do we blame potheads in Chicago for violence in northern Mexico?

Why on earth would you think I don't support blaming clergy, too? You think by implicating the west, it leaves the burden, all of it, on our shoulders? You say this as if you have absolutely no interest in CIA operations over the last fifty some odd years.

Really, it's just kind of sad, and reactionary to be all "whadddabout' the other guy!?"

[Frink]

No.

[minionofmidas]

What is the question even supposed to mean?

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, of course not, but some muslims are (a quite small minority overall).

[dead0man]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

But hasn't the west "caused trouble" all over the third world?

Yes it has.

k...so what about the places we've screwed up that ARE NOT terrorist asshats today.  You seemed to have missed that part.  Why aren't people from Namibia blowing sh**t up?  If we've been dicking people over for the past 500 years, which I totally agree that we have, why aren't more of them so pissed at us that they're blowing sh**t up?  Just some of them are, and the some that are don't always have a lot in common.  I mean, a Muslim in the Phillipines doesn't have a lot in common with a Muslim in Morocco other than the God he prays too and the fact that he is blowing sh**t up.  The CIA has dicked around plenty in South America, why aren't there Chillians trying to blow up airplanes?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why on earth would you think I don't support blaming clergy, too? You think by implicating the west, it leaves the burden, all of it, on our shoulders? You say this as if you have absolutely no interest in CIA operations over the last fifty some odd years.

Really, it's just kind of sad, and reactionary to be all "whadddabout' the other guy!?"
[/quote]Of course it is.  Lets play a game...the next 1000 people to die from asshat terrorists, lets find out the religion of the asshats...any guess who 99% of them will pray too?  You are saying Islam isn't to blame that western asshattery is, I'm pointing out that we've spread our asshattery around to a lot of people, yet only one demographic is blowing sh**t up.


AND they blow each other up a lot more than they blow us up, is that our fault too?

[Goldwater]

No, of course not, but some muslims are (a quite small minority overall).

[fezzyfestoon]

If we are going to assign blame for our problems to a religion, it ought to be Christianity.  Christians commit far more crimes in the US every year than Muslims.  But that's stupid.

[phk]

There is a revelation attributed to the Prophet Muhammad that both Byzantium's Constantinople and Italy's Rome would be occupied by victorious Muslim armies.

[Platypus]

Sure, if you mean a threat to continuing the status quo obviously the rising prominence of Islam is one of the bigger ones.

There's good and bad in this, but the effect exists and causes change. That change will occur more rapidly as the years progress, and hopefully it will be positive.

(Of course, 'Islam' is ridiculously broad)

[Franzl]

If we are going to assign blame for our problems to a religion, it ought to be Christianity.  Christians commit far more crimes in the US every year than Muslims.  But that's stupid.

Big difference though, they don't commit the crimes in the name of their religion.

[afleitch]

Yes it is.

Had I been alive some two thousand years ago as a citizen of Rome or Greece I would have considered that creeping 'eastern religion' of Christianity to be a threat to the 'West' and its social and moral ideals. Which of course it was until Christianity itself was seen to embody the 'West' and we entered a new age of reason and statehood. So yes it is an immediate threat to the established culture of the 'west', but a threat is merely a threat. Europe has a canny ability to rise above religion no matter what religion takes root there.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Radical Islam certainly is.

[Earth]

k...so what about the places we've screwed up that ARE NOT terrorist asshats today.  You seemed to have missed that part.  Why aren't people from Namibia blowing sh**t up?  If we've been dicking people over for the past 500 years, which I totally agree that we have, why aren't more of them so pissed at us that they're blowing sh**t up?

You're glossing over the cultural differences, as well as the immense political ones. Different groups, with different makeup react in different ways to what ails them. Simply because they're Muslims doesn't mean they'll all radicalize, and commit to destroying America. At worst, it's racist, at best, it's just an oversimplification, and I very much doubt you're a racist. At it's heart, this fundamentalism versus Islamic moderation comes down to interpretation, and the way it spreads, and holds on in a particular culture.

Lets play a game...the next 1000 people to die from asshat terrorists, lets find out the religion of the asshats...any guess who 99% of them will pray too?  You are saying Islam isn't to blame that western asshattery is, I'm pointing out that we've spread our asshattery around to a lot of people, yet only one demographic is blowing sh**t up.

Yes, one specific demographic that has managed to exploit the situation, and commit to a radicalized interpretation of Islam. I'd have to throw your old question in your face if you genuinely think it's Islam that's the catalyst, and not Western foreign policy; then why aren't more Muslims from around the globe engaged in violent fundamentalist struggle? Doctrinal issues.

AND they blow each other up a lot more than they blow us up, is that our fault too?

It very well could be. A response to western aggression, to western ingratiation, isn't only going to come out towards the West, but also those perceived as internal enemies.  Muslims killing other Muslims isn't new by any stretch of the imagination, but in the current climate, the West has more to bear than the mythical chaos of Islam as an organized religion. It would be like saying doctrine is the sole motivation of the struggle in Northern Ireland; that Christianity is to blame.

[Platypus]

Actually, there,s also radicalised Islam throughout the world. From central Asia to West Africa, Indonesia, Buenos Aires, India, Phillipines and in the West, a disproportionate amount of violent action is done by muslims. Some can and should be classified as retaliation to US belligerance but a significant amount is relately either very tenuously or not at all. There's little question that muslim fundamentalists are more prepared than most to engage in violent acts for a cause and while heavily outnumbered by moderates they are a larger percentage of the whole than those of any other major religion.

[dead0man]

k...so what about the places we've screwed up that ARE NOT terrorist asshats today.  You seemed to have missed that part.  Why aren't people from Namibia blowing sh**t up?  If we've been dicking people over for the past 500 years, which I totally agree that we have, why aren't more of them so pissed at us that they're blowing sh**t up?

You're glossing over the cultural differences, as well as the immense political ones. Different groups, with different makeup react in different ways to what ails them. Simply because they're Muslims doesn't mean they'll all radicalize, and commit to destroying America. At worst, it's racist, at best, it's just an oversimplification, and I very much doubt you're a racist. At it's heart, this fundamentalism versus Islamic moderation comes down to interpretation, and the way it spreads, and holds on in a particular culture.

But it's become violent in SO many different cultures.  As I said earlier, there is very little in common, culturally, between a Muslim terrorist in the Philippines and a Muslim terrorist in Lebanon other than the god he prays to.  Christians in the Philippines don't tend blow sh**t up and Christians in Lebanon don't tend to blow sh**t up (yes I'm sure you can find Christians in both places blowing sh**t up, but they are much more rare).  I'm not saying Christianity is better than Islam.  I'm not saying everybody that is Muslim is blowing sh**t up.  I'm saying that there is something in the religion that tends to make certain types of people very willing to blow sh**t up.  Ignoring that fact and placing the majority of blame on the west comes across, to me at least, as a cop out.

And I think we really aren't as far apart here as would seem.  We both agree that western intervention plays apart, I just think it's a much smaller part.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Simply because they're Muslims doesn't mean they'll all radicalize, and commit to destroying America. At worst, it's racist, at best, it's just an oversimplification, and I very much doubt you're a racist.

There the liberals go again, playing the race card

(even though everyone knows Islam is not a race!)

[Earth]

(even though everyone knows Islam is not a race!)

And yet no one thinks Albanian when they hear the word Muslim!

Nice try, Office.