GoFundMe seizes funds of Canadian trucker convoy

[Fuzzy Bear]

This "peaceful protest" (occupation) causes a lot of problems for the citizens and businesses of Ottawa. I want GoFundMe to be fair about this, but they violated the terms and conditions and now they lost their revenue stream. As a critic of the occupation, this is great news.

And, yet, you are fine with the violent protests of BLM in Minneapolis, Seattle, Kenosha, Atlanta, et. al.

(EDIT:  I apologize for this statement, as it is not accurate.  While I criticize Grand Mufti T'Chenka for not condemning the BLM protests that occurred during COVID-19 restrictions, he did not ever say violence was OK.  He was fine with the protests going on, and that is the crux of my disagreement with him on this issue.  But he's a good person and I should have worded the above more accurately.)

BLM did not lose revenue streams when they conducted violent protests; they GAINED revenue streams.  And BLM did all the things you criticize and then some.  The truckers, whose cause I presume you disagree with are not burning buildings, harassing diners at restaurants, going to peoples' houses at midnight and loudly chanting "Wake up, m-----f-----, wake up!".  

GoFundMe are now "walking back" their plan to take these monies and give them to charities of GoFundMe's choice.  Isn't that flat out theft?  Where's your outrage on that?

My outrage over this is that BLM is treated with kid gloves while these Truckers are treated as criminals, when the FACT is that BLM committed more acts of criminality in their protests than these truckers.  You may not like their cause, but they are law-abiding citizens, and I support them because they are standing up to the Walking Abscess that is your Prime Minister who is actively depriving ordinary Canadians of individual freedoms that, until now, were taken for granted and considered unremarkable.  Justin Trudeau is a coward who won't even speak to the group; he cowers (unnecessarily) in some "undisclosed location" and libels these people.  This is a man that will cite one example of some individual (likely a ringer) to call this group "racists" (and other slanderous names) but will not refer to BLM protesters "criminals", even though their protests featured arson, violent takeovers of police precincts, etc. occurred.

GoFundMe is scum.  Justin Trudeau is a coward.  If GoFundMe and its execs face criminal charges for conspiring to commit theft of funds, I'm fine with it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Not that I mind that. It's a good thing to see the truckers fighting back against this nanny state drivel.

Canadian citizens / voters show overall support for the govermment on this when polled. We aren't libertarians up here.

That's too bad.  Canadian citizens will not appreciate their own civil liberties until they're gone and Justin Trudeau likes power too much to give them back.

My heart goes out to ordinary Canadians who are trying to live normal lives.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This "peaceful protest" (occupation) causes a lot of problems for the citizens and businesses of Ottawa. I want GoFundMe to be fair about this, but they violated the terms and conditions and now they lost their revenue stream. As a critic of the occupation, this is great news.

And, yet, you are fine with the violent protests of BLM in Minneapolis, Seattle, Kenosha, Atlanta, et. al.

WHAT ABOUT BLM - Fuzzy Bear in every argument

When one group is treated so differently, and so deferentially, while other groups, who are more well-behaved in their advocacy and demonstrations are vindictively penalized, that does very much beg the question of "Why the difference?" and "What's the standard?".  Why did no one seek to deplatform BLM, cut off their funding, or something on that order after, say, the burning and destruction of Kenosha, WI?  Or for their occupation of Police Precincts in Minneapolis and NYC?  

If people's reason is "I favor BLM and disfavor Canadian Truckers!", then let them be honest about that.  If you want to base a decision to yank funding on how a group is actually behaving in the public arena, then these Truckers have it all over BLM.  This isn't how each of these groups are behaving/have behaved individually and collectively; it's about whose cause is favored and whose cause isn't.

That you don't favor a cause that is, nonetheless, a lawful cause is no reason to deny usage of a service that is presumably offered regardless of service.  Those who oppose lockdowns, mandatory vaccinations, and any other authoritarian response to COVID-19 should not ever be denied ordinary services simply because of a political stance.  "Freedom" and "Liberty" ought to mean more than the idea that repression of free speech and basic rights to use public services open for all is dependent on ideological conformity to the agendas of a private entity.

[Fuzzy Bear]

But isn't this a 2 way street?  If you were against the BLM protests, don't you also have to be against this?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ottawans-fed-up-with-trucker-blockade-blame-police-inaction-2022-02-03/

"They are being ... harassed and terrorized," McKenney said, citing complaints of air horns, erratic driving, open fires and "widespread public urination and defecation," while asking for more police support.

The government will not use troops against the truckers, Trudeau said on Thursday.

Police chief Peter Sloly said his officers could neither deny the truckers their right to demonstrate, nor was he in a position to negotiate an end to the protest.

Harrassed and terrorized?  That's a Trudeau pol whining about conditions that were routine in multiple major cities in America courtesy of BLM.

At a minimum, these folks are no worse than BLM.  These people are no worse behaved than BLM protesters, and arguably better.  Their behavior is an inconvenience?  What about the Poor Peoples' March of 1968?  These truckers' actions seem no worse behaved than those folks, and THOSE folks had all sorts of complaints of this sort aimed at them back in 1968 by pols of all sorts.

Besides, BLM's funding wasn't cut by GoFundMe or anyone else.  It was increased.  That's the standard.  You didn't cut it for BLM, you don't cut it for this group.  

These folks aren't rioting.  They are protesting the authoritarian response to COVID-19 and their response is long overdue.  They are REAL Freedom Fighters, not just the kind that pass for FFs at this place.  And, truthfully, I cannot understand how people who give BLM all the props in the world, despite the behavior at THEIR protests, cannot at least have some sympathy for people who, arguably are bullied by what is turning out to be a surprisingly repressive Canadian government whose Dear Leader seems unable to bear any criticism of his actions.  

My standard is the same.  You didn't do it to BLM (cut off their funding); don't do it to the truckers.  And don't conspire to take donors' monies and give it to charities that are diametrically opposed to the aims of the truckers in this matter.  Just imagine if I ran GoFundMe and decided I didn't want GoFundMe to support your intended recipient of your donation and took that money and donated it to a group that opposes abortion.  Would you consider me a thief?

I'm the one that's being consistent here.  You're the one that's not.

[Fuzzy Bear]

At a minimum, these folks are no worse than BLM.  These people are no worse behaved than BLM protesters, and arguably better.

Fuzzy, an entire mall has been shut down for more than a week because it was FULL of anti-maskers. Those workers are now recieving no income. We elected a Conservative govermment who put in a mask mandate (which is popular). The mall decided to close because a mall full of anti-mask customers is insanely dangerous, both in terms of the health of the workers and also that the lawlessness encouraged more lawlessless... there were people smoking indoors and a few threats of violence to staff who attempted to control the situation. The police didn't have the numbers to deal with it, which is why they now might call in the army.

I thought you supported law and order? This is a serious issue. Ontarian culture mostly takes COVID a lot more seriously than Florida culture and our laws reflect that (and overall public support of our laws).

I don't want to hear any arguments about "the mask mandate is unjust". It's the law. People can advocate for a change of the law or they can move to a province with a different law, but RIGHT NOW, hundreds of anti-maskers inside of a mall is NOT law-abiding behaviour, period. I don't want to hear any more comments aboit how law-abiding these people are. Businesses and residents all over Ottawa want these people gone.

You're a good person, and one of the people here that I care about personally, so this isn't personal, but you were out to lunch when BLM was trashing cities, breaking laws, doing what they were doing in MULTIPLE American cities, over a situation where (A) there was consensus outrage, and (B) the incident was IMMEDIATELY addressed and PROPERLY addressed by the criminal justice system.  And these people were in the streets, blowing off social distancing, looting, committing arson, and occupying police precincts (in some cities) on a wide scale.  Indeed, IIRC, you voiced support for BLM and Antifa, basing your support on the "Racism is an Emergency" logic, while begrudging Americans whose livelihoods were being decimated by the restrictions placed on their businesses (often representing their life savings) in the name of "public health".  You could not voice much outrage when BLM were burning and looting American cities, but you wish for outrage when truckers frustrated by YEARS of restrictions placed on them by a government led by a psychopath (which I consider Justin Trudeau to be) who has no regard for THEIR lives and livelihoods and will not even earnestly hear them out.  And given the freedom others have indulged in when it comes to Donald Trump's psychological state, I fail to see how my comment about the guy from Ottawa who likes to play dress-up is out of line.

So, no, I can't accept your argument here.  You haven't been consistent.  You have been harsher on those who have been less law-abiding in this.  If you had objected to the BLM and Antifa demonstrations (which were violent riots) I would be more disposed to your argument, but that is not the case. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

This "peaceful protest" (occupation) causes a lot of problems for the citizens and businesses of Ottawa. I want GoFundMe to be fair about this, but they violated the terms and conditions and now they lost their revenue stream. As a critic of the occupation, this is great news.

And, yet, you are fine with the violent protests of BLM in Minneapolis, Seattle, Kenosha, Atlanta, et. al.

This is a false statement and everybody on this forum of all avatar colours know it. Come on, man.

BLM did not lose revenue streams when they conducted violent protests; they GAINED revenue streams.  And BLM did all the things you criticize and then some.  The truckers, whose cause I presume you disagree with are not burning buildings, harassing diners at restaurants, going to peoples' houses at midnight and loudly chanting "Wake up, m-----f-----, wake up!". 

I would be happy to see the protestors / agitators that did that lose their revenue stream. Whether those actions were coordinated by the BLM organization is another story.

BLM did not lose revenue stream
GoFundMe are now "walking back" their plan to take these monies and give them to charities of GoFundMe's choice.  Isn't that flat out theft?  Where's your outrage on that?

Yeah, I'm against that. Just give the money back UNLESS it states right in the terms of service that this is GoFundMe's policy. In which case, follow your policies but I dislike the policy.

My outrage over this is that BLM is treated with kid gloves while these Truckers are treated as criminals, when the FACT is that BLM committed more acts of criminality in their protests than these truckers. 

We have a mask mandate in Ontario and I can guarantee you that that law / by-law has been broken over 10,000  times by these losers in Ottawa since the protest started. So, you're definitely wrong here. Breaking a law because you disagree with it still counts as breaking a law.

You may not like their cause, but they are law-abiding citizens, and I support them because they are standing up to the Walking Abscess that is your Prime Minister who is actively depriving ordinary Canadians of individual freedoms that, until now, were taken for granted and considered unremarkable. 

I'm not a huge fan of Trudeau, but he's trying to protect people like my mother from getting killed by these people. The public overall supports Trudeau and opposes these people. If this country isn't libertarian enough for them, they're welcome to go live in Trumpistan.

I don't know how old your Mom is, but I'm 65, and my wife is 67.  Our youngest son is 16 and is homeschooled.  I doubt your Mom is much older than us, if she's older at all.  I'm saying this because the vast majority of COVID-19 deaths are for people past the age of average life expectancy, and those under that age usually have multiple comorbidities.  I had a friend of ours, a young pastor, die at 41.  He was a non-smoker, non-drinking married father of two.  He also weighed over 400 lbs (possibly over 500) and had been that grossly obese his whole life. 

I don't want to die, and I don't want my wife to die.  I would like very much to live a long life.  I would certainly like to see my youngest son marry.  I would like to live to see my granddaughters married, and I would like to live to see all of them come to be Saved and know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  I would like all of this very much, but not at any price.  Not at the cost of individual freedoms to travel, to work, to freely associate.  Not at the cost of censored speech where a Public Health Bureaucracy cannot be publicly questioned, not even by credentialed Doctors and Scientists.  I've lived a good life, and I want to live some more, but I would prefer death to the loss of personal freedom for my children. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

At a minimum, these folks are no worse than BLM.  These people are no worse behaved than BLM protesters, and arguably better.

Fuzzy, an entire mall has been shut down for more than a week because it was FULL of anti-maskers. Those workers are now recieving no income. We elected a Conservative govermment who put in a mask mandate (which is popular). The mall decided to close because a mall full of anti-mask customers is insanely dangerous, both in terms of the health of the workers and also that the lawlessness encouraged more lawlessless... there were people smoking indoors and a few threats of violence to staff who attempted to control the situation. The police didn't have the numbers to deal with it, which is why they now might call in the army.

I thought you supported law and order? This is a serious issue. Ontarian culture mostly takes COVID a lot more seriously than Florida culture and our laws reflect that (and overall public support of our laws).

I don't want to hear any arguments about "the mask mandate is unjust". It's the law. People can advocate for a change of the law or they can move to a province with a different law, but RIGHT NOW, hundreds of anti-maskers inside of a mall is NOT law-abiding behaviour, period. I don't want to hear any more comments aboit how law-abiding these people are. Businesses and residents all over Ottawa want these people gone.

You're a good person, and one of the people here that I care about personally, so this isn't personal, but you were out to lunch when BLM was trashing cities, breaking laws, doing what they were doing in MULTIPLE American cities, over a situation where (A) there was consensus outrage, and (B) the incident was IMMEDIATELY addressed and PROPERLY addressed by the criminal justice system.  And these people were in the streets, blowing off social distancing, looting, committing arson, and occupying police precincts (in some cities) on a wide scale.  Indeed, IIRC, you voiced support for BLM and Antifa, basing your support on the "Racism is an Emergency" logic, while begrudging Americans whose livelihoods were being decimated by the restrictions placed on their businesses (often representing their life savings) in the name of "public health".  You could not voice much outrage when BLM were burning and looting American cities, but you wish for outrage when truckers frustrated by YEARS of restrictions placed on them by a government led by a psychopath (which I consider Justin Trudeau to be) who has no regard for THEIR lives and livelihoods and will not even earnestly hear them out.  And given the freedom others have indulged in when it comes to Donald Trump's psychological state, I fail to see how my comment about the guy from Ottawa who likes to play dress-up is out of line.

So, no, I can't accept your argument here.  You haven't been consistent.  You have been harsher on those who have been less law-abiding in this.  If you had objected to the BLM and Antifa demonstrations (which were violent riots) I would be more disposed to your argument, but that is not the case. 

Fuzzy, with ALL due respect, you are misremembering my posting history. The only time I used the "racism is an emergency" argument is when I supported BLM peaceful protest, and even at that time, I was criticizing people who refused to choose between social distancing and wearing a mask. Other than that, I was a critic of the looting, vandalizing and criminal behaviour. I don't know if you have the time to do so, but if you search into my posting history, all of the evidence is there that I'm telling you the truth. Many other members of this forum remember my position on this, and they could back me up, if they care enough to do so. And if not, that's perfectly fine too. I know what my positions are/were. If you don't, that's on you. The evidence is there if you want to look at it.

Here's your actual post.  I gave a misleading statement which I want to clear up.  You never condoned violence (although, quite frankly, you minimized the degree to which BLM and Antifa's protests were violent) and you minimized BLM's role in the illegalities by citing how decentralized it was, etc.  Here's the post, which is easier to quote by copying and pasting:

The BLM protests should have happened. They NEEDED to happen, some might argue, for the long-term future of America. They should not have have happened without masks or social distancing, as some on this forum including myself pointed out and criticized at the time. At least they were outdoors.

I support churches moving outdoors with social distancing and masks, but other than all 3 happening, they should probably stay closed. In person AND indoors church services absolutely do not "need" to happen when they are so many reasonable alternatives with much lower risk to the community. I honestly can't even see the comparison between a necessary cultural movement and having church in a very specific way instead of several reasonable alternatives.

Please don't mention "trained Marxists", because the BLM movement is not heavily coordinated by the BLM organization. I myself do not like or support the organization, despite massively supporting the movement.

If the COVID-19 pandemic was the Public Health Crisis you say it is, your statement about the protests "needing" to happen cannot be justified.  That's something you can't have both ways.  If the crisis is THAT severe, then BLM and Antifa needed to find a way to voice their opinions without taking to the streets.  Period.  If you can support limiting churches, denying others the right to protest in order to air grievances, then there is no way you can justify your position and be consistent. 

If BLM engaged in Civil Disobedience, that would be one thing.  But Civil Disobedience is a measure appropriate for a violation of basic rights in the face of an indifferent power structure.  There was an immediate response to the death of George Floyd by the civil authorities that was genuine and affirmative.  That's not the case of the truckers in Canada; they are having their livelihoods threatened and they are being forced to accept vaccinations whose value they rightly question.   I just had COVID-19 a second time and I am fully vaccinated, and it was my last COVID-19 shot that caused a fever to spike to 106 degrees that night.  So my stance is that if you were OK with BLM protesting in the midst of a pandemic, I'm OK with truckers engaging in protests for their rights as well.  If you can't uneqivocally say that the BLM protests (i. e. riots) should not have gone on due to pandemic, period, then I cannot believe that the COVID-19 restrictions you advocate for are as necessary as you say they are.

[Fuzzy Bear]

At a minimum, these folks are no worse than BLM.  These people are no worse behaved than BLM protesters, and arguably better.

Fuzzy, an entire mall has been shut down for more than a week because it was FULL of anti-maskers. Those workers are now recieving no income. We elected a Conservative govermment who put in a mask mandate (which is popular). The mall decided to close because a mall full of anti-mask customers is insanely dangerous, both in terms of the health of the workers and also that the lawlessness encouraged more lawlessless... there were people smoking indoors and a few threats of violence to staff who attempted to control the situation. The police didn't have the numbers to deal with it, which is why they now might call in the army.

I thought you supported law and order? This is a serious issue. Ontarian culture mostly takes COVID a lot more seriously than Florida culture and our laws reflect that (and overall public support of our laws).

I don't want to hear any arguments about "the mask mandate is unjust". It's the law. People can advocate for a change of the law or they can move to a province with a different law, but RIGHT NOW, hundreds of anti-maskers inside of a mall is NOT law-abiding behaviour, period. I don't want to hear any more comments aboit how law-abiding these people are. Businesses and residents all over Ottawa want these people gone.

Residents of multiple cities in America wanted BLM gone, yet cowardly Mayors and Governors refused to call in the National Guard to prevent violence.  If you had spoken up for those people I would be more concerned about one group of employees in one (1) mall. 

The mask mandate is unjust.  It's mindless theater that satisfies the need of power mad pols.

Decisions made in this pandemic, in both the US and Canada, were made by elites who are unaffected by the pandemic.  They lost no income.  The people they were concerned with were people who coulde work from home and telecommute.  The people who were "essential" would just wear a mask.  The people who were not "essential" who couldn't work from home were simply out of luck.  The parents who needed to work but could not because of no in-person school were simply out of luck.  And the Public Health establishment, the Political establishment, and the people who made these decisions didn't care one iota for those people, or for those whose businesses were/are shut down.

Outrage against insensitive elites is well justified.  If the BLM non-peaceful protests HAD to happen, then the Canadian Truckers Protest HAD to happen as well for the sake of human freedoms and human rights.  That's my stance on this.  The condoning of BLM protesting during pandemic restrictions made this postion relatively easy to take.

[Fuzzy Bear]

If the COVID-19 pandemic was the Public Health Crisis you say it is, your statement about the protests "needing" to happen cannot be justified.  That's something you can't have both ways.  If the crisis is THAT severe, then BLM and Antifa needed to find a way to voice their opinions without taking to the streets.  Period.  If you can support limiting churches, denying others the right to protest in order to air grievances, then there is no way you can justify your position and be consistent. 

I supported BLM protests where everybody was either socially distancing or wearing a mask. Ideally both. There were no messages from BLM about "make sure you don't socially distance and don't wear a mask". Therefore, I supported the protests themselves, and some of the protestors, but was disappointed with the protestors who weren't being COVID-safe. There isn't evidence to suggest that relatively safe outdoor protests were impossible.

If BLM engaged in Civil Disobedience, that would be one thing.  But Civil Disobedience is a measure appropriate for a violation of basic rights in the face of an indifferent power structure.  There was an immediate response to the death of George Floyd by the civil authorities that was genuine and affirmative.  That's not the case of the truckers in Canada; they are having their livelihoods threatened and they are being forced to accept vaccinations whose value they rightly question.

You don't have a right to keep your job if you fail to meet the safety standards and safety protocols of the job. If you repeatedly fail to use safety equipment at work, despite multiple warnings, you could lose your job. Which is reasonable.

But the safety protocols have to actually have something to do with the actual dangers of the job.  A mandate made in the name of job safety needs to be shown to actually have something to do with  safety.  I would argue that this is not the case with a vaccine mandate, particularly when you have so many people contracting COVID-19 after multiple jabs.  When you have a vaccine whose efficacy is legitimately in question, the idea that the "mandate" is a legitimate job safety measure is rightfully subject to question.  No matter what Mark Zuckerberg may think.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Being patriotic is not allowed anymore. If they shut down the fundraiser, they should be returning every cent back to the donors, not funneling it into left-wing charities.

We need to show the truckers even more support now.

Donors will get a refund if they request it; if they don't, the money will go to charities.  (I do agree that the latter should be an opt-in rather than opt-out.)

The truckers should get the money that the donors intended to.  Period.

Not a dime was prevented from going to BLM during that months that they criminally rioted.  The money should go where it was intended to go.  Period. 

That the money won't is disgusting, but it's one more event that should put to rest the idea that the explosion of the internet "empowers" ordinary citizens.  The internet, like everything else, empowers the elites of our society.  The privileges and special treatment that our Congress have bestowed on "Big Tech' companies ought to be reevaluated in the face of the internet being oppressive, as opposed to liberating and empowering, as was once the promise not that long ago. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Being patriotic is not allowed anymore. If they shut down the fundraiser, they should be returning every cent back to the donors, not funneling it into left-wing charities.

We need to show the truckers even more support now.

Donors will get a refund if they request it; if they don't, the money will go to charities.  (I do agree that the latter should be an opt-in rather than opt-out.)

The truckers should get the money that the donors intended to.  Period.

Not a dime was prevented from going to BLM during that months that they criminally rioted.  The money should go where it was intended to go.  Period. 

That the money won't is disgusting, but it's one more event that should put to rest the idea that the explosion of the internet "empowers" ordinary citizens.  The internet, like everything else, empowers the elites of our society.  The privileges and special treatment that our Congress have bestowed on "Big Tech' companies ought to be reevaluated in the face of the internet being oppressive, as opposed to liberating and empowering, as was once the promise not that long ago. 

Notice unlike with BLM this money isnt really being used to bail out persons arrested for criminal conduct.

I do notice that, yes.

Now I will say this:  I don't have a problem with groups like GoFundMe and the like being used to raise money for bail or criminal defense for accused defendants.  I extend this to defendants whose actions most people would be repelled at.  Constitutional Rights are for people that you or I may abhor, and not just for those who we consider to be some form of FF.  While I loathe Kamala Harris on many levels, I don't criticize her contributions to the Minneapolis Bail fund that provided bond for BLM protesters accused of crimes.  I DO criticize her because she's fine with GoFundMe cutting off Kyle Rittenhouse. 

People are presumed innocent until proven guilty.  Reasonable bail, a Speedy Trial, being represented with EFFECTIVE counsel; these are all CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that all of us possess.  Unfortunately, we now live in an age where some enumerated Constitutional Rights and some identified parties and groups are "disfavored".  Lots of people are fine with that here because the disfavored rights (speech, free press, religious freedom, right to keep and bear arms) are disfavored for all, while 4th, 5th, and 8th Amendment Rights are disfavored for certain groups (J6ers, right wing defendants of all kinds, "hate crime" defendants).  That's fine and good, but what will happen if and when political winds shift and you find yourself "disfavored"?  What will the response be from those who your faction placed in that category at this particular time and place?  There is not excuse to block the funding of legal services, bail money, or mere sustenance. 

That's my position on the greater issue, just in case you're curious.  I support EVERYONE's Constitutional Rights, not just those of the people I like.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Since BLM seems to keep coming up...
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1492552144339226625

They are not destroying property as BLM did.

They are not committing arson.  They are not occupying courthouses.

Are they costing the Canadian economy?  Well, yes; that's the point.  They are using their rights to protest as economic leverage, just like a labor union on strike.  Now maybe you support scabs; if you do, please tell us and then go back to ranting about Trump.

Krugman's comparison is false because the truckers are not breaking laws as BLM has.  Where are the buildings  they've burned, the police precincts they've occupied by force?  Where are the people peacefully sleeping in their homes awakened by chants of BLM agitators yelling "Wake up!  Wake up!  Wake up, m-----f-----, waie up!"?  Where are the restaurant patrons being harassed?  Where was Krugman's condemnation of BLM and Antifa in the midst of their criminality? 

This is a dishonest argument by Krugman.  Both you and he are full of crap on this one.