Israel-Gaza war

[Velasco]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

Well, Hamas just made the whole Gaza-soon-not-habitable to be a whole lot sooner. If the Egyptians don't open the borders the humanitarian situation there is going to be dire

Well, the humanitarian situation in Gaza has been dire for decades and the primary responsibility is on Israeli authorities. It's very easy and short sighted to blame Hamas and forget about nearly 2 million of innocent civilians trapped there. As long as the actors involved --and specially the international community-- are unwilling to take action and continue turning a blind eye to Israel's brutality, this state of affairs will continue until the next escalation or war. Human rights organizations are repeatedly warning about this, but nobody wants to see.

Said this, all attacks on civilians are crimes of war and the attacks on Israeli civilians perpetrated by Palestinian militants are not exception.

It's clear Israeli authorities didn't expect an attack of this magnitude from the Gaza Strip, the world’s largest open-air prison. However, it must be noted that Israel-Palestine has witnessed an increasing violence against the Palestinian subjects, sponsored or perpetrated by the Israeli government (including illegal killings, settler violence, forced evictions, torture, disproportionate retaiiations and a large etcetera). I think it's important to remind everyone the brutality of the facts (this is apartheid!), because attacking civilians or submitting them to a regime of terror is always morally depraved and many people tend to turn a blind eye to the situation of Palestinians. On the other hand, regardless of whether Hamas supporters claim otherwise, there is not a single "Palestinian resistance". The civilians who desperately try to resist forced evictions in Massafer Yatta, in the hills south of Hebron, are resistants too. All my solidarity and support goes for the villagers and for many civilians that are largely ignored and whose suffering remains unnoticed. This is extensive to all civilians subject to violence and terror attacks, regardless of whether the perpetrator is the Israeli state, the IDF, the police, the settlers, Hamas, Hezbollah or any other group.

I don't know what is the long-term goal for Hamas. Right now, I would say Hamas has achieved to humiliate the Netanyahu government (the most right-wing and hardliner in Israel's history, unsurprising conclusion of thelast elections). The reprisal is going to be undoubtedly brutal and the Palestinian civilians of Gaza will suffer to a degree impossible to imagine from outside that hellhole. However, regardless of whether the government claims a military victory in the end, I think the psychological impact in Israel will be huge  --perhaps comparable to the 1968 Tet Offensive in Vietnam--.

In any case, there's no solution in sight. It seems the sufferings and the oppression of Palestinians will continue indefinitely, as well as the violence inherent to this situation and the indifference of the international community

On a side note, I don't understand the shortsightedness of people thinking the 'normalization' of relations between Israel and Arab regimes would deactivate "the conflict".

The following days will be terrible and painful in that corner of the world. Good luck to all the goodwilling people

[Velasco]

https://twitter.com/MahaGaza/status/1710977584228434190

 Dear God, the civilians are lacking of hiding places in Gaza.  This is the predictable reply of a fascist government to the terror attacks perpetrated by Hamas. Collective punishment is a heinous crime of war and the Israeli regime has a great expertise in that.

The last Haaretz editorial blames Netanyahu for the epic security failure, saying this government has been solely focused on the implementation of an increasingly expansionist policy in the West Bank. Well, I think this is partially true and certainly the attacks are humiliating for someone like Netanyahu, a man who claims his rxpertise in security is neccessary for Israel. However, the racist policies of this government don't represent an U-turn with regards the policies of the previous government, they just represent a radicalization and intensification. The problem revealed by the Hamas attacks on Israel and the IDF retaliatory attacks on Gaza is structural. It's a problem related to the occupation and a state founded on violence, discrimination and apartheid against the Palestinians

[Velasco]

Breaking the Silence explains better what's happening

https://twitter.com/BtSIsrael/status/1710962102679019901?t=MyYxJmXwmCwncTh_IUSMj...

[Velasco]

[
In other words: Hamas slaughtered hundreds of innocents, but it’s business as normal for us so we’re going to keep lying about Israel.

The statement is longer has nothing to do with your interpretation. Either you are being disingenous, or you have some reading comprehension issues

[Velasco]

In other words: Hamas slaughtered hundreds of innocents, but it’s business as normal for us

did you even actually read the post??

"Hamas's attack and the events unfolding since yesterday are unspeakable"; "cruel and criminal actions"

nothing they said is wrong, Israel's misplaced security priorities have directly led to their current security failure and complete inability to prevent the slaughter and capture of many innocent lives

believe it or not, it's entirely possible to be outraged at the atrocities committed by Hamas while also critically examining the context in which they occurred, what went wrong, what factors created the environment where something so unthinkable could have occurred. One does not preclude the other.

Thanks. You are one of the best

[Velasco]

I'd say a majority of the Israeli society has tried to ignore Gaza and the very existence of the Palestinians submitted to its governent and armed forces. The previous dysfunctional coalition government aimed to "shrink the conflict" (in the words if an influential liberal zionist). Interesting thoughts by Anshel Pfeffer (Haaretz, The Economist):

 "Netanyahu tried to ignore Gaza over his many years in office (...) Now he will be renembered forever for this disaster"

https://twitter.com/AnshelPfeffer/status/1710861402582221223?t=f6xbuMXEBYWpRVvKS...

Reportedly Smotrich has said "it's time to be cruel" at a heated cabinet meeting, even if that implies the killing of Israeli hostages in Gaza

With Israel’s hard-right government, a negotiated settlement appears unthinkable. Yesterday, Netanyahu called on Palestinians in Gaza to “leave” – it is unclear where to – and threatened an indiscriminate wave of bombing against Hamas. Since then, hundreds of Palestinians have been killed. In a cabinet meeting, finance minister Bezalel Smotrich called for “cruel” retaliation, which suggests the dozens of Israeli hostages in Gaza could well die as a result of the bombings. For the extreme right in Israe

l, this is also an opportunity to escalate tensions between Israel and the West Bank, the other Palestinian territory between the west bank of the River Jordan and the eastern frontier of Israel, as members of the Knesset openly speak about large-scale expulsion of Palestinians as a desired outcome.  

Some commentators believe the attack to be an Iranian-coordinated attempt to foil the Saudi “normalisation” with Israel. Such explanations are unconvincing. The willingness of Gulf states to normalise relations with Israel may have galvanised Hamas’s willingness to act. But a major escalation in Palestine/Israel was already under way, with a dramatic rise in Palestinian casualties in the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of several small communities, intensified settlers’ attacks, and blatant changes to the status quo at the al-Aqsa mosque/Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Many, therefore, believed a popular uprising – another intifada – was only a matter of time.

It may have been that Hamas decided that an escalation was coming and it wanted to keep the initiative in its own hands, rather than respond to a popular uprising. This attack is the largest military blow Palestinians have ever dealt to Israel. As the Palestinian National Authority, which controls the West Bank, and its 87-year-old head, Mahmoud Abbas, fade into insignificance, Hamas aims to position itself as the real Palestinian leadership for the next stage – even if that means risking a confrontation whose outcome no one can predict.  

https://twitter.com/YairWallach/status/1711069912167227860?t=iFLZYo5RHQTSOtso4LC...

[Velasco]

Well, here you have the genocidal rhetoric of a fascist government. "Human animals", untermensch. Two millions of civilians trapped in Gaza, human beings treated like beasts in a cage. Barbarism unfolding

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711311030083563925?t=nMkOSDsgtc01tkbvhJ...

[Velasco]

Yes, Hamas are animals. Amalekites, even. The videos they themselves released all weekend show this quite clearly.

Dehumanising rhetoric is how we beat dehumanising rhetoric, well done.

Dehumanizing people and ethnic groups is one of the main characteristics of fascism. No doubt where are Gallant and his friends in the Israeli government, ideologically speaking. It's not only Hamas, all the Palestinians are "human animals " for them. There are plenty of statements made by these people confirming that. Dehumanizing an entire people is the first step towards past, present and future atrocities. We'll see more unspeakable horrors

 Well done, yes

[Velasco]

Certainly Netanyahu (and others before him) has accomplished the mission.The Palestinian state is thwarted. At what price, Bibi

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?t=wK1pM4EngCIeeGioF46T...

[Velasco]

Bernie Sanders is one of the greatest

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1712123827273019648?t=OmWYJ7Syi-aY_CMxR95N...

[Velasco]

We are at the point where Palestine has been able to hold onto Israeli territory for more than half a week, with no end in sight that Palestinian offensives are going to end this week and that most soldiers have embedded and fortified their position in southern Israel. What paralysis is this that the Israeli army refuses to quickly move to secure its own cities.

The offensive into Israel was launched by Hamas -an armed militia based in Gaza- not by Palestine. Neither Palestine as an entity ruled by the "Authority" nor Palestine as a people, only Hamas.

[Velasco]

Settler violence in the West Bank has been a constant -largely unnoticed outside Israel-Palestine- with periodic outbursts like the Huwara pogrom. Escalation is a predictable consequence of this ongoing tragedy. Months ago Israel National Security minister Ben Gvir said that arming settlers "is important and has proven its usefulness". In other words, settler violence is a state policy. The consequences of an escalation are potentially terrible for the Palestinian population in the West Bank and I'm afraid they'll get little protection from the international community

https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1712397208757080091?t=2A791cjY1U6cGxlxGNFbOQ&...

[Velasco]

u

If you look at the next tweet it's mainly to contextualise the Israeli response to this massacre, as its their biggest casualty count by a country mile.

But also, yes, the fact that already more Palestinian civilians have perished in the bombings but many centre right to right wing figures legitimately don't give a damn, is terrible.

Contextualizing horror requires honesty with the facts, as well as some empathy towards the victims. Justifying the massacre of civilians perpetrated by Hamas is as morally wrong as the usual narrative justifying the inhumane blockade and the bombings over Gaza. The saddest thing is the unwillingness to put an end to the endless cycles of horror and violence

[Velasco]

People in this thread speculating about the future of Gaza should read what's linked below. Some people in the Israeli right are taking about reoccupying the Gaza Strip, establishing settlements and the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands ("whoever chooses to go out, has gone out")

https://twitter.com/YehudaShaul/status/1712406813507764438?t=7UZEUlmAtPxlYQV-82_...

[Velasco]

Yesterday someone in the moderators team (thank you!) decided I was using "excessive hyperbole" referring to the Israeli government revenge on the Gaza population. Besides condemning the Hamas slaughter of civilians (I don't pay attention to morons claiming that's an act of resistance, it's a war crime), many people with knowledge pn this question and concerned at human lives have been warning about it. Looking at the most recent news only confirms that the worst is yet to come. 500 children murdered in Gaza so far (the body count will rise)

[Velasco]

dominates the headlines, atrocities against combatants are likely even worse. Of course concern for civilians should be higher, but the soldiers are human, too - communities in Gaza and Israel will have to reckon with the survivors (who will, no doubt, have been changed) after the conflict ends.

Soldiers are human beings with guns, so they can repeal attacks from a group of armed people. In a situation of war , soldiers and/or combatants from two opposite banda kill each other. Hamas and the state of Israel are said to be at war. When a group of armed people (soldiers or combatants) attacks and/or targets unarmed civilians, it's a crime of war

[Velasco]

 Addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza requires more decisive action, in order to restrain the Israeli government to take revenge on the Gaza population. It is monstrous to tell one million of Gazans to flee, in what looks like the prelude to a massive ethnic cleansing. The statements of president Herzog are equally monstrous.  Herzog claims that there are no innocent civilians and that all the population of Gaza bears a collective guilt for Hamas atrocious actions, which sounds like an incitement to the most savage and unrestrained revenge and must be interpreted as such. During the following hours a terrific and unrestrained horror could unleash in the martiryzed Gaza. The impending massacre could be also a turning point for the Western World aligned to Israel, because nothing will be the same for us if we do nothing to prevent the most unspeakable horrors. This is a serious historical moment

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1712915377137521094?t=kwTG5nzqblpwU82EZHnG7g&...

[Velasco]

I'm glad Biden finally acknowledged this... especially after the evacuation order, and what the Israeli president and others have said.

Acknowledging there are innocent civilians in Gaza won't be enough if he allows the ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip. Those fleeing through the Rafah crossing won't be allowed to return

https://twitter.com/khaledfahmy11/status/1712998371617571263?t=IyLt9yh4aR9WF0kbe...

[Velasco]

Is the Israeli military using white phosphorus in its military attacks? That seems like a war crime to me.

HRW is denouncing the use of white phosphorus since yesterday

https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1712573871596187916?t=8koh1IUZrTKBQL2dj_PM_g&...

On the IDF call to "evacuate" northern Gaza. Ai deems the order is equivalent to forced displacement of population

https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1712886488717787410?t=1OqhgqlMQe6LPLS8M6XtTQ&...

Both amount to war crimes and are violations of international humanitarian law

[Velasco]

I think the brutal truth is that the Egyptian government would rather the Israelis kill them (directly or indirectly) than have to look after 2 million refugees.

In that case, which party would be the main culprit: Egypt for not accepting them, or Israel for killing them? Should Egypt accept to resettle two million of Gazans in permanent refugee camps located in the Sinai peninsula?

[Velasco]

The United States has a responsibility to accept as many refugees as possible. It is virtually impossible to fit 2 million people into half of the Gaza Strip, and thousands of Israelis will rationally flee Israel because of the very REAL threat of Hamas. The United States will probably be the only real option for these people. Egypt has refused to allow Palestinian refugees to enter. Europe is going to be a mixed bag; while some European governments will likely be accommodating, other European governments are controlled by either Islamophobic or anti-Semitic actors (or both), meaning they will NOT accept refugees.

You are assuming the outcome will be a massive ethnic cleansing, something akin to a second Nakba. Am I wrong? Is that a widespread opinion in western countries? Would the western world be in a position to claim any kind of moral superiority over its 'multipolar' rivals allowing Israel to expel the Gazans? These questions will matter in the years to come

[Velasco]

It's certainly a disgrace. We (the western world and its liberal values) will pay a high price for it

https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1713210261996462512?t=bM7yVJGecfofH5zcd3hd5w...

[Velasco]

It's certainly a disgrace. We (the western world and its liberal values) will pay a high price for it

https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1713210261996462512?t=bM7yVJGecfofH5zcd3hd5w...

No one with a brain buys the ~west cares about the liberal order~ propaganda discourse outside the West.

The West has propelled dictatorships and genocide when it saw that as aligned to their material self-interests. They use liberalism and democracy as an instrument only, not as a goal, especially in foreign countries.

If a democracy starts going against their interests on any matter, they will promote regime change undercover and more discreetly. If an autocracy starts doing that, then they will be more open about it and justify it as fighting terrorism or dictatorship in name of liberal values.

However, if a democracy or an autocracy aligns with their interests, they will treat as “liberal allies” no matter the horrors they may commit when they happen to be a dictatorship.

I don't buy most of your arguments, but no doubt that most of the folks attacking you without caring to address the fundamental question stressed above are, in fact, validating you

And of course what you are arguing in this post is correct: the West is blatantly hypocrites. Most of the times I prefer Western hypocrisy to the barbarism of autocracies. However, when it comes to situations like this, the West is validating the claims of autocratic regimes. Israel’s disregard of fundamental human rights is impossible to hide and the brutal nature of its response is impossible to tolerate, even in these tragic circumstances

[Velasco]

[
Most of us don’t have patience for a poster who (by his own standards) supports genocide of Ukrainians saying how westerners are bunch of hypocrites especially when most westerners here made upset about how Palestinians are treated

I haven't followed the Ukraine-Russia war thread enough to know all his arguments, but I suspect I would be on the opposite side of him on this question. However,  in what concerns the hypocrisy and the double standards of the West (Israel-Palestine vs Russia-Ukraine is a perfect example),  I am afraid most people here are validating him

[Velasco]

It's certainly a disgrace. We (the western world and its liberal values) will pay a high price for it

https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1713210261996462512?t=bM7yVJGecfofH5zcd3hd5w...

This is dumb. Those regimes will say that no matter what.

No, it makes sense. If western liberal democracies were consistent to their own values and sets of rules, those regimes wouldn't have anything to say. However, given that they are inconsistent, the propaganda of those regimes has a receptive audience in the so-called "Global South" (I don't like the concept, but you know what I mean). A clear example of this is the success among Latin American audiences of the Russia Today propaganda (on a side note, the woman who was the RT's main propagandist for LatAm is now in Spain).  The failure in implementing a system of international relationships based on the rule of the international law also contributes to the rise of authoritarianism and illiberalism in the West