Israel-Gaza war

[CumbrianLefty]

No, the US can't simply command Israel to stop fighting - or indeed their policy more generally. But if we recall (and far too many seem to forget this) that Netanyahu is not popular anyway, it also strains credulity that they are without significant influence - and their backing still counts for a great deal.

[CumbrianLefty]

No people have the “right” to self-determination. This concept is one of the worst ideas of the modern age. Not even the strongest supporters of the Palestinian cause believe it would be a thriving liberal democracy making positive contributions to the world.

A complete non-sequitur.

And of course given what you say, Israel has no such "right" either.

[CumbrianLefty]

Why is ModernBourbon allowed to comment on this? He thinks Israelis have collective responsibility for this while his own country slaughters tens of thousands in Ukraine.

Whilst I have limited time for the concept of "collective responsibility", as its advocates never tire of pointing out Israel is a democracy - unlike Gaza and indeed most neighbouring countries.

(and Russia, of course)

And yes, assuming the poster you refer to is pppolitics - they are very much pro-Ukraine.

[CumbrianLefty]

Let's stop beating around the bushes and say the obvious:

Hamas has won!

Hamas knows that it can't beat Israel militarily, so it baited Israel into committing genocide for the entire world to see.

Israel is now more isolated than ever and every terrorist killed will be replaced with 10 new ones.

Hamas is a victim of their own success. They underestimated the damage they would do on October 7th and had no plan on what would happen afterwards. Now Sinwar is hiding in a tunnel under a refugee camp desperately trying not to get caught. Pretending this is some brilliant tactical coup by the Hamas leadership is such a big brain take that I'm not even sure how to respond.

Hamas isn't primarily fighting for military supremacy. It's fighting for the support of the Arab street. And in that it has been largely successful.

Its secondary aim is surely to turn people outside the Arab/Muslim world against Israel - it looks like that is also happening to at least a degree.

[CumbrianLefty]

Hamas is not winning the war, and any claims to the contrary are silly.

That doesn't mean Israel can't also lose in the longer run.

[CumbrianLefty]

I do wonder how much many young Israelis are brainwashed by fundamentalist US "Christians".

[CumbrianLefty]

I do wonder how much many young Israelis are brainwashed by fundamentalist US "Christians".

The answer is none. Why would that be the case?

I know this post has been mocked, but is it really the case there is no crossover at all? Especially in these days of social media.

[CumbrianLefty]

Plus the obvious point that present day Uzbekistan is hardly a paradise, even a full century on.

[CumbrianLefty]

Israel would be cool with cash compensation. Although without a peace agreement, any cash compensation will surely go to build more bombs.

Arafat's legacy does matter in terms of where we are now, right of return really makes no sense when every town is completely different than it was in 1948. It is more productive to build permanent homes for Palestinians (West Bank has plenty of space to build assuming Israel tears down the settlements 20 miles inside and I assume any treaty would give Gazans the right to move there). I just don't think the college campus "river to the sea" rhetoric is one bit productive.

Realistically though, is giving a population of people who has high rates of antisemitism control of a highland region within ten miles of most major Israeli cities actually a good idea? Even in the event of a peace agreement being signed, the opinions of average Palestinians aren't necessarily going to change.

So what's your solution? Presumably just kill or expel them all??

Alternatively, a workable peace agreement is the best chance we have of many Palestinians outlook changing for the better - though nobody should expect miracles.

[CumbrianLefty]

Casually raising genocide as an option is odd.

Well, you and I may think so. But tell that to the people in Israel (including some in the government and security apparatus) who are talking of it as a "solution" (you might even say, a final solution) in disturbingly cavalier and carefree fashion.

[CumbrianLefty]

How far are we from the Final Solution to the Palestinian Question?

Assuming this is a serious rather than rhetorical question - still some way away.

However, that some influential people in Israel desire exactly that cannot be wished away - despite how their supporters on here and elsewhere try their utmost to do so.

[CumbrianLefty]

Very few posters on here are pro-Hamas, if you mean by that lauding the acts of October 7.

Quite a few are sympathetic to the Palestinian people, this is not the same thing however.

[CumbrianLefty]

Actual Palestinians: we want Israel to stop oppressing us
Western leftists: ALL I WANT TO DO IS KILL JEWS KILL KILL KILL

https://twitter.com/ahmad_tibi/status/1742452417680019805

Some rando on twitter is not representative of the western left

Genuinely, bigging up some fringe crank as somehow representing the entirety of "the left" is one of the right *and* centre's most annoying - and pernicious - habits.

[CumbrianLefty]

Less than three months old and this thread has clocked up over 5k posts.

[CumbrianLefty]

The narrative that Israel caused the attacks was based in the conspiracy that Israel was exaggerating/lying about 10/7.

I've seen claims online that most of the civilian casualties at the music festival were caused by Israeli helicopters. That's nonsensical, because to kill that many people, you need a lot of bullets - enough for several helicopters. Too many people would have been involved to keep that a secret.

It is quite likely a few were indeed killed by Israeli "friendly fire".

Beyond that, however, these claims are indeed garbage.

And at least arguably AS.

[CumbrianLefty]

There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was plenty of significant violence in other places against Israelis and Jews, including in Israel itself. Including many hostage-takings.

So basically any Palestinian violence against Israel and Jews anywhere in the world is justification for the denial of Palestinian sovereignty? You have effectively reiterated my point - if Israel will end the occupation only the impossible condition that no Palestinian will ever be a threat to any Israelis, then this means that in practice that they don't ever plan to end the occupation.

It is basically an argument there are "no good Palestinians".

And where that leads should be pretty obvious by now, even if it wasn't before this conflict.

[CumbrianLefty]

I cannot recall a single pppolitics post not related to I/P.

They have made quite a few.

[CumbrianLefty]

If I took a shot everytime disagreement emerged between pppolitics and a Zionist in this thread, I'd already have been a member of Alcohols Anonymous.

This has nothing to do with Zionism and everything to do with pppress being a fanatical anti-Semite

Anti-semitism lost its meaning because Zionists started calling any criticism of Israel "anti-semitism".

"Zionist" lost meaning when it just started replacing Jew in anti-semitic tropes.

Both extremes are as bad as each other as far as this is concerned, well spotted.

[CumbrianLefty]

snip

These people cannot be left to their own devices. They're off their rockers.
Thank god the population wants them out, if polls are any indication.

That is a pretty good basic summary of things, yes.

[CumbrianLefty]

I dont think the people of Gaza are capable of overthrowing Hamas but it is interesting that protests are a regular occurrence in Iran despite heavy usage of executions but not in Gaza.

They are now, but there have been lengthy periods when that was not the case. This didn't mean that everybody (or even the often asserted "overwhelming majority") were enthusiastic supporters of the regime, any more than it now means that in Gaza. And please spare me "polls" which have blindingly obvious drawbacks in non-democratic entities, even more so during wartime.

[CumbrianLefty]

Highly disturbing developments coming out of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

An unlikely charge of intent to commit treason landed Meir Baruchin, a grey-haired, softly spoken history and civics teacher, in the solitary confinement wing of Jerusalem’s notorious “Russian Compound” prison in early November.

The evidence compiled by police who handcuffed him, then drove to his apartment and ransacked it as he watched, was a series of Facebook posts he’d made, mourning the civilians killed in Gaza, criticising the Israeli military, and warning against wars of revenge.

“Horrific images are pouring in from Gaza. Entire families were wiped out. I don’t usually upload pictures like this, but look what we do in revenge,” said a message on 8 October, below a picture of the family of Abu Daqqa, killed in one of the first airstrikes on Gaza. “Anyone who thinks this is justified because of what happened yesterday, should unfriend themselves. I ask everyone else to do everything possible to stop this madness. Stop it now. Not later, Now!!!”

Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.

He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”

When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.

Only Democracy in the Middle East^TM

That talking point deserves to be shredded, yes. Israel is a fairly typical Middle Eastern country whether or not the people there or elsewhere would hate to acknowledge it.

Imagine actually believing this

The people *currently* in charge of Israel see democracy as an inconvenience at best.

Look at who Bibi's mates are - Putin, Orban, Trump. By their friends ye shall know them.

[CumbrianLefty]

Netanyahu says that Palestinians convinced Hitler to have the Holocaust.

A claim he has made before.

In the real world, it certainly qualifies as hate speech and at least arguably as objectively AS.

[CumbrianLefty]

So in that article, Rick Scott says everyone in Gaza deserves to die…

Sounds like pretty much the standard GOP line these days.

A genuinely evil bunch of sociopaths, with remarkably few exceptions.

[CumbrianLefty]

You're not gonna change the mind of someone who, at best, is ambivalent to 20,000+ Palestinian civilians dying. There's no arguing that.  Plus, if you try, you'll just get a 10 paragraph response that could be shortened to "Palestinians deserve no rights or security."

You should be directing your anger at Hamas, who are the ones using Palestinians as human shields

Can't we direct our anger at both?

[CumbrianLefty]

I firmly believe that the reason Netanyahu is prolonging this war is so that Trump wins in the US. I mean, Gaza's barely fighting back, Israel is committing genocide against the Gazans. This is kind of ironic, since Trump has been attacking Netanyahu lately (though he'll suck up to Netanyahu again once elected.)

Netanyahu did interfere in the 2016 election in Trump's favor, but Democrats decided to yell about some other country interfering because they were too cowardly to mention that.

What exactly happened there?

(genuine question, can't remember)