Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[John Dule]

If anyone's interested, every episode of Servant of the People is on YouTube. It's a decent show; good production quality and Zelensky is a very charismatic and sympathetic lead.

Episode 1:

[John Dule]

It is time to call this what it is: This is an attempt at genocide. Putin wants to eradicate the Ukrainian people, either by mass killings of civilians or the suppression of their culture.

[John Dule]

Has anyone else seen this story about a Russian oligarch supposedly putting a bounty on Putin? How seriously should I take this?

[John Dule]

"Fringe extremist"? My view is on the fringe when it is shared by 1.4 billion people, and another 1.3 billion or so people share similar views, at least when it comes to how their respective governments have responded to the war? If you think my support for the CCP is "excessively weird", does it pain you to learn that by and large, Chinese people support the CCP and the government, particularly when the West and the USA are held up as an alternative?

I don't care if I have any support or no support. As I meet the standards of decorum on this forum, if you get me banned I will have been banned for my views and opinions and you will have shown your hypocrisy about free speech, a freedom deemed so important it is the First Amendment in the US Constitution. There is a saying in the US about free speech, or at least there used to be: "I disagree completely with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

This forum is not bound to follow the Bill of Rights, lol. I know you have contempt for the Constitution and everything it stands for, but your claim to free speech (1) Does not apply in this context, and (2) Is invalidated by the moral code you supposedly adhere to.

[John Dule]

"Fringe extremist"? My view is on the fringe when it is shared by 1.4 billion people, and another 1.3 billion or so people share similar views, at least when it comes to how their respective governments have responded to the war? If you think my support for the CCP is "excessively weird", does it pain you to learn that by and large, Chinese people support the CCP and the government, particularly when the West and the USA are held up as an alternative?

I don't care if I have any support or no support. As I meet the standards of decorum on this forum, if you get me banned I will have been banned for my views and opinions and you will have shown your hypocrisy about free speech, a freedom deemed so important it is the First Amendment in the US Constitution. There is a saying in the US about free speech, or at least there used to be: "I disagree completely with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

This forum is not bound to follow the Bill of Rights, lol. I know you have contempt for the Constitution and everything it stands for, but your claim to free speech (1) Does not apply in this context, and (2) Is invalidated by the moral code you supposedly adhere to.

Sure, I don't deny that. This forum is free to ban me. But that is the ultimate display of hypocrisy; while arguing for "democracy and freedom" in supporting Ukraine, you're kicking me out because you disagree with my views.

I don't agree with this forum's banning policy, but you have indeed violated the TOS, and people have been banned for much less than what you've said in this thread. The height of hypocrisy would be banning Sanchez while allowing a genocide denier like yourself to remain.

[John Dule]

"Fringe extremist"? My view is on the fringe when it is shared by 1.4 billion people, and another 1.3 billion or so people share similar views, at least when it comes to how their respective governments have responded to the war? If you think my support for the CCP is "excessively weird", does it pain you to learn that by and large, Chinese people support the CCP and the government, particularly when the West and the USA are held up as an alternative?

I don't care if I have any support or no support. As I meet the standards of decorum on this forum, if you get me banned I will have been banned for my views and opinions and you will have shown your hypocrisy about free speech, a freedom deemed so important it is the First Amendment in the US Constitution. There is a saying in the US about free speech, or at least there used to be: "I disagree completely with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

This forum is not bound to follow the Bill of Rights, lol. I know you have contempt for the Constitution and everything it stands for, but your claim to free speech (1) Does not apply in this context, and (2) Is invalidated by the moral code you supposedly adhere to.

Sure, I don't deny that. This forum is free to ban me. But that is the ultimate display of hypocrisy; while arguing for "democracy and freedom" in supporting Ukraine, you're kicking me out because you disagree with my views.

I don't agree with this forum's banning policy, but you have indeed violated the TOS, and people have been banned for much less than what you've said in this thread. The height of hypocrisy would be banning Sanchez while allowing a genocide denier like yourself to remain.

No?

Sanchez was banned for personal attacks not for his political views. Usually this forum is fairly lenient on political views except when it comes to trans people because anything that can be seen as even barely disparaging towards trans people is considered genocidal against them . Other than that  I think most stuff is free game. Sanchez was a good poster but he got what was coming to him. Compucomp clearly has not engaged in any personal attacks even in "self defense"

The TOS bans promoting violence/harm against groups of people, which compucomp does on a daily basis through his Russian/Chinese apologism. As always I'm generally against bans, but if we're going to use them it might as well be on the people who actually deserve it.

[John Dule]

Is anyone else worried that by pulling Twitter, McDonald's, Facebook, and Pornhub out of Russia, we're actually improving their quality of life?

[John Dule]

I haven’t been following this thread very closely so forgive me…

Is there any legitimate concern this could end up being WWIII?

Yes. No matter how unlikely that outcome is, it carries such serious consequences that all concerns about it under these circumstances are legitimate.

[John Dule]

Back to the low effort non sequitur responses again? Who takes the W or L is still to be decided; I will say that if the US and China end up in a trade war, the US will suffer historic inflation and supply shortages among other economic consequences and the Democrats will be utterly destroyed in November.

Speaking of non sequiturs, lol.

Anyway, clearly the biggest L was taken by your parents, whose only child, I presume, ended up being, well, you.

LMAO, they are quite proud that despite being constantly exposed to Western propaganda,  I remain loyal to my people and my country. This is after all a common Western mistake; you love to think that Chinese people are all brainwashed by their government and would overthrow it if they were just informed, does it kill you to know that most Chinese people genuinely support the government and the party, especially when the USA is held up as an alternative?

The CCP has bought the loyalty of a majority (but not an overwhelming majority) of its citizens with economic growth. When growth slows, or Xi dies and causes a chaotic succession that spooks investors, I'll be interested to see if the Chinese people continue to show loyalty to a regime that has failed to keep its side of the bargain. I have nothing but love and respect for the people of China, and I have no doubt that when the time comes they will not hesitate to exact merciless retribution against a government that has lost its mandate (as they have done so many times in the past).

[John Dule]

Americans who side with Russia are not "traitors" to the United States in a lawful sense, but they are certainly traitors to the principles for which America stands.

[John Dule]

Is this more idiotic or more infuriating? It’s your chose.

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1507019467519275028?s=21

Least annoying evangelical.

[John Dule]

If Russia focuses all of its attention on the Donbas, it might actually succeed at taking and holding territory. It will depend on how many troops and resources it pulls back to devote to that effort.

[John Dule]

Should we rename this thread to "Russo-Ukrainian War" at some point? That's the generally accepted name for this conflict.

[John Dule]

Has anyone else read these stories about Putin's reaction to the fall of the Soviet Union? Reading the story about him in Dresden, I was struck by the close parallel to Hitler's reaction to the end of WWI. Both men appeared to be caught completely off-guard by these moments of national humiliation; both describe feelings of betrayal at the hands of incompetent or traitorous leaders; and both seem to have been imbued with a desire to reclaim lost glory as a result of these experiences. It's deeply disturbing reading something like this after The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

[John Dule]

I’m very strongly anti-war, but seeing the pictures of civilians shot execution style with hands behind their backs and mass graves makes my blood boil. I can’t even imagine what Mariupol looks like. If they continue to find more and more scenes like this, then I would be in favor of sending NATO troops in to directly fight the Russians.

Would that escalate things immensely? Yes. Would it likely lead to a broader war with Russia? Yes. But I’m sorry, if more scenes like today come out as more towns are liberated, I think we have to acknowledge that Kremlin leadership needs to be eliminated from this earth. In the 21st century, having a nation such as Russia engage in acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing simply cannot be tolerated.

Exactly. If a direct intervention leads to WW3, wouldn’t we be glad that a country like Russia no longer exists?

This might be the most insane statement in this thread-- and compucomp posts here regularly. Well done.

[John Dule]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a tool used by those in power. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but it represented an actual separate node of power throughout much of Western European Medieval history and thus could serve as a counterbalance against rulers who pushed their luck. The Orthodox Church is a glorified puppet institution.

[John Dule]

I have been discussing this conflict with my old college roommate, a Chinese mainlander and ardent CCP supporter. While I agree that we should focus on the here-and-now, there needs to be an acknowledgement of the war crimes committed by the US in Iraq whenever people like this bring up their usual whataboutisms. Don't even try to contest the fact that Bush is a war criminal with these people. Just tell them that both he and Putin should be in front of a Hague tribunal.

[John Dule]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

[John Dule]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

[John Dule]

Guys guys, obviously genocide is bad, but it's important that we remain vigilant in case Ukraine hypothetically does something I imagined in my head that would make them worse than Russia. I am a very smart moderate.

[John Dule]

Green = Yes
Yellow = Abstain
Red = No
Grey = No vote

By my calculation, the red countries account for about 2,246,000,000 people.

[John Dule]

Lmao, great to see the worst members of both parties in agreement.

These people are as predictable in their voting as North Korea, Cuba, and Iran.

[John Dule]

"How could these cowards refuse to fight and die in the trenches for their homeland?" I ask from behind my computer screen

[John Dule]

"How could these cowards refuse to fight and die in the trenches for their homeland?" I ask from behind my computer screen

Give me liberty or give me death!

How easy for you to say when it's not your death we're talking about.

[John Dule]

"How could these cowards refuse to fight and die in the trenches for their homeland?" I ask from behind my computer screen

Give me liberty or give me death!

How easy for you to say when it's not your death we're talking about.

Do you think I am a coward who wouldn't fight if my country is at stake?

I am not going to fight in foreign wars (i.e. Vietnam), but I would absolutely fight for my homeland.

After all, what is a life living under the feet of Putin?

Relevant again:

I believe that there's a legitimate debate to be had over whether it's preferable to be ruled by Putin or to see your country devolve into a European Syria, and the keyboard insurgents who want to see years of violent resistance have no right to judge the Ukrainian people for which option they choose.