To court packing supporters on atlas.

[John Dule]

For years Democrats have thrown temper tantrums whenever anyone said "both sides do it." Fitting that they would prove all those people right the moment that it became beneficial to them.

[John Dule]

For years Democrats have thrown temper tantrums whenever anyone said "both sides do it." Fitting that they would prove all those people right the moment that it became beneficial to them.

Dismal, deplorable take.  The Democrats don't want to do this.  They are being forced into it by non-stop Republican cheating.  The Republicans have made clear that cheating, rigging and abuse of power are the order of the day, and if the Democrats continue trying to keep their hands clean, the Republicans will create a situation where they can dominate the entire country from the position of a double-digit minority.

You guys can do whatever you want, but I will not absolve you of your participation in wrecking American democracy. This is entirely in your hands and you are fumbling it, as expected.

[John Dule]

For years Democrats have thrown temper tantrums whenever anyone said "both sides do it." Fitting that they would prove all those people right the moment that it became beneficial to them.

Dismal, deplorable take.  The Democrats don't want to do this.  They are being forced into it by non-stop Republican cheating.  The Republicans have made clear that cheating, rigging and abuse of power are the order of the day, and if the Democrats continue trying to keep their hands clean, the Republicans will create a situation where they can dominate the entire country from the position of a double-digit minority.

You guys can do whatever you want, but I will not absolve you of your participation in wrecking American democracy. This is entirely in your hands and you are fumbling it, as expected.

That's like saying after Pearl Harbor that if the United States finally enters the war, you "won't absolve the United States of your participation in bloodshed."

The GOP is dedicated to destroying American democracy so they can entrench their own minority rule for the foreseeable future.  Democracy is broken no matter what.  The only way to end it is to engage, fight the fight, and get to a place where we can force them to turn things around.  But you'd rather just post smug, easy takes from the peanut gallery than actually try to reckon with the reality of what's going on.

The only reason I have been supportive of the Democratic Party for the last ten years is the fact that they obviously cared more about democracy and its institutions than the Republicans did. They are now proving that this was a simple charade. How you choose to handle this is your responsibility and yours alone. No buts. No whatabouts.

[John Dule]

For years Democrats have thrown temper tantrums whenever anyone said "both sides do it." Fitting that they would prove all those people right the moment that it became beneficial to them.

What a bad and utterly missing the point take.

I've always been sympathetic to the Democrats, but my sympathy ends where court-packing begins.

[John Dule]

The only reason I have been supportive of the Democratic Party for the last ten years is the fact that they obviously cared more about democracy and its institutions than the Republicans did. They are now proving that this was a simple charade. How you choose to handle this is your responsibility and yours alone. No buts. No whatabouts.

The main reason I want Democrats to pack the courts is to force a situation where Republicans agree to return to institutionalism and cool things down instead of letting it spiral into all-out war.

I'm literally trying to make an institutionalist argument and you're coming after me for not caring about democracy and institutions.  The entire point of this is that Republicans are actively destroying our democracy and institutions, and court packing is one of the few weapons we can use to strike back and undo the damage they've already done.

The idea is, you add some new justices to revert the impact of the stolen seats, and then you go to the Republicans and say, "look we have the power now and we can keep abusing it all day just like you did when you were in power.  OR you can come to the table and we can make some new rules to ensure that neither of us is able to abuse power in this way any longer."

Your take is incredibly shallow and surface-level and I know you're smarter than that but it seems like you're refusing to understand the concept because the thrill of smugly putting people down from some imaginary moral high ground is just too tempting.

If those are your goals in advocating this, then you are even more delusional than I first thought. Do you honestly think that the Democrats can chuck a few extra judges into the Supreme Court, then say to the Republicans "Hey, we know we just pulled a monumental and unprecedented power-grab, but it's payback, and if you want us to stop you have to make concessions"? Do you seriously believe that a group as stubborn as the GOP will suddenly come to their senses once you do that? Absolutely freaking absurd. They will double down in the worst possible way; they'll be able to credibly make the case that Democrats are undermining democracy, and swing voters will listen to them. Then once they are in power, they will set about expelling the added judges from the Supreme Court, or perhaps putting more conservatives on the bench to balance out the new liberals.

The outcome of this partisan brinksmanship is as dismal as it is predictable. I don't mind if you destroy this country-- it'll put us all out of our misery-- but please don't try to convince yourself that you're doing it for principled reasons.

[John Dule]

The only reason I have been supportive of the Democratic Party for the last ten years is the fact that they obviously cared more about democracy and its institutions than the Republicans did. They are now proving that this was a simple charade. How you choose to handle this is your responsibility and yours alone. No buts. No whatabouts.

You're acting like this would be worse than anything Republicans have done, rather than just making it even.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says you are entitled to a Supreme Court that is "even."

[John Dule]

Also... don't start what you can't finish.

[John Dule]

Well if that's the angle you want to take, there's nothing in the Constitution that says you can't add seats to the Supreme Court.

Arguing that you can do something does not prove that you ought to do it.

You are usually pretty good at these, but this one is just... and in decipherable mess.

Oh, the irony.

[John Dule]

Once again, you refuse to acknowledge that the partisan brinksmanship is already happening.  You could apply this exact same argument to what the Republicans are doing.  But you won't, because you're too busy being a hack.

The monumental and unprecedented power grab is the GOP deciding that Democratic presidents don't get to appoint new supreme court justices, and abusing their power to make that happen.  But you couldn't care less about that.  I guess that's all fine and dandy with you.

I already applied this same rhetoric to the GOP four years ago. I am on the side of institutional stability. You are on the side of The Party.

Do whatever you want, MacArthur. Those who care about this country will have no part in it.

[John Dule]

you should be violently opposed to the Republican Party, period.

I am, you dingus. When have I ever said anything even remotely nice about the GOP on this site? Not everybody is on one of the two artificial sides you and your partisan hack friends have imposed upon this country.

[John Dule]

you should be violently opposed to the Republican Party, period.

I am, you dingus. When have I ever said anything even remotely nice about the GOP on this site? Not everybody is on one of the two artificial sides you and your partisan hack friends have imposed upon this country.

Either we roll over and let Republicans do whatever they want without fighting back, or we fight back. We didn't ask for this situation, but we're in it.

Great. So when you start doing stuff like this, you'll stop getting mad when people say "Both sides do it," right?

[John Dule]

you should be violently opposed to the Republican Party, period.

I am, you dingus. When have I ever said anything even remotely nice about the GOP on this site? Not everybody is on one of the two artificial sides you and your partisan hack friends have imposed upon this country.

All I ever see you doing is taking shots at the Democratic Party from the peanut gallery.  That's how you treat the Republican Party, who have thrown away every last vestige of institutionalism or democracy during their time in power.  But as soon as the Democrats try to play the same game, not because we want to but because we're forced to, you're all over us with the hellfire and damnation.

Lol, how many times do I have to post "If you vote for Trump, you are a bad person" on this site before you stop acting as though I'm a secret Republican operative? Your willingness to indiscriminately ascribe ill intent to other people the moment they disagree with you is perhaps the number one reason why I find you such a revolting poster.

[John Dule]

Not Trump, the Republican Party.  There are plenty of people on this site who bash Trump but tacitly support the Republican Party.

Again, you continue to refuse to answer the question that everyone is asking of you.

Again, you continue to play the "both sides are the same" game and have no answer for the many posters who have pointed out that Republicans started this fight, Democrats initially tried "when they go low, we go high", Republicans laughed at that and cheated even harder, and now Democrats are forced to join the fight.

Was Nixon justified in the Watergate break-ins because Kennedy stole the 1960 election?

[John Dule]

Not Trump, the Republican Party.  There are plenty of people on this site who bash Trump but tacitly support the Republican Party.

Again, you continue to refuse to answer the question that everyone is asking of you.

Again, you continue to play the "both sides are the same" game and have no answer for the many posters who have pointed out that Republicans started this fight, Democrats initially tried "when they go low, we go high", Republicans laughed at that and cheated even harder, and now Democrats are forced to join the fight.

Was Nixon justified in the Watergate break-ins because Kennedy stole the 1960 election?

This is an absurd comparison. The proper response to cheating isn’t criminal activity, and no one is claiming that it is.

Oh right, sorry, the proper response to cheating is more cheating.

[John Dule]

He doesn't have one.  You're like the 4th poster to ask him this question and he refuses to answer it.

It isn't my job to strategize for the Democratic Party. If you want to put people in the special chairs this badly, try winning the senate back. Oh, and maybe don't run corrupt neoliberal candidates who take hundreds of thousands of dollars from financial institutions.

[John Dule]

He doesn't have one.  You're like the 4th poster to ask him this question and he refuses to answer it.

It isn't my job to strategize for the Democratic Party. If you want to put people in the special chairs this badly, try winning the senate back. Oh, and maybe don't run corrupt neoliberal candidates who take hundreds of thousands of dollars from financial institutions.

Got it.  So you don't have any actual idea, you're just sure that our idea sucks.

It's hard to build something that lasts. It's easy to tear things down. As such, because you don't mind destroying everything in your path so long as you get your way, your task is a lot simpler.

[John Dule]

One short post is better than half a dozen sloppy ones full of personal attacks and incorrect assumptions.

You say one thing, the number of recommendations says quite another.

Lowest common denominator.

I initially attached a meme, but honestly - do better.

Oh, I certainly don't believe the conventional wisdom is always correct. But it is mostly correct. Ironically, this is a thread about whether or not Democrats should enforce the popular will. Аverroës made a pejorative, subjective assessment of my comments, something that can't be objectively adjudicated. So I simply pointed out that most of my purportedly spammed, "sloppy" comments have one or more recommendations, whereas his/her have none. Аverroës could have a point, unfortunately, no one seems to agree with him/her. If everyone in the room thinks you're an *******, it's certainly possible that they're all mistaken. It's far more likely, however, that you are.

You are embarrassing yourself.

[John Dule]

[John Dule]

The motherf**ker is already burned to the ground. If Republicans confirm Trump's pick before the election or in a lame duck period, they've already packed.

What is so hard about this concept for you? If Republicans pack and the Democrats pack back just to even out the margin to where it would have been without the Republican pack, they're putting out the fire.

It it painfully obvious that this will not end there. You are not putting out the fire. You are throwing gasoline on it.

[John Dule]

The motherf**ker is already burned to the ground. If Republicans confirm Trump's pick before the election or in a lame duck period, they've already packed.

What is so hard about this concept for you? If Republicans pack and the Democrats pack back just to even out the margin to where it would have been without the Republican pack, they're putting out the fire.

It it painfully obvious that this will not end there. You are not putting out the fire. You are throwing gasoline on it.

Hopefully we can agree on a new system to prevent this from happening again, but if the Court doesn't go back to R+1, that's very unlikely to happen.

That won't happen. Republicans are, as you may have noticed, a very stubborn group of people. They will not let you guys get the last word on this one. Not a chance.

[John Dule]

This thread has been a microcosm of America, demonstrating why this country is so polarized.

Yes, it is... Republicans not getting what the big deal is about breaking our national institutions for short-term gain, Democrats getting furious, and Republicans not understanding why that is.

The vast majority of people in this thread who are taking issue with this idea are not Republicans.

[John Dule]

This thread has been a microcosm of America, demonstrating why this country is so polarized.

Yes, it is... Republicans not getting what the big deal is about breaking our national institutions for short-term gain, Democrats getting furious, and Republicans not understanding why that is.

The vast majority of people in this thread who are taking issue with this idea are not Republicans.

After 25 years of arguing with libertarians who lined up behind the GOP and its talking points while boasting how they were independent thinkers, I am more than content to group small-c conservatives, libertarians, yellow avatars etc. with the Republicans they typically support and who are one of the two parties of government. I am not impressed by anyone's yellow avatar while arguing Mitch McConnell's case here.

No one here is arguing for McConnell. We are arguing against you.