Israel-Gaza war

[Hollywood]

Yesterday, our rabbi suffered a heart attack when he heard the news about Israel, because he was was worried his family might have been killed.  Everyone is worried, but they are mostly filled with rage and resolve.  Everyone is moving towards a more hardline stance.  Numerous victims are calling for the Bibi Netanyahu to wipe Gaza off the map, and the lout-cry has forced many leftists politicians to stand with the ruling party.  

Israel's reaction may disrupt their alliance with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan.  I assume that was Iran's goal, because they cannot allow the IDF to fly through those countries.  They also can't allow Israeli relations with Muslim countries to improve to the point where they are launching coordinated attacks. The prudent move for Israel may be to use the attack as an opportunity to strike a crushing blow to Iran instead of demolishing Gaza.  

[Hollywood]

Still waiting for literally any hint of a workable solution to stop the killings from the people self-righteously insisting to me that I'm advocating for mass murder for wanting people to move a few hours west.  Since apparently it's obvious that this would result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

For a start, the US as Israel's primary sponsor, must force them to finally work seriously for a two-state solution, the only workable way to end this conflict. Because as horrific Hamas' acts were, they haven't made the whole Palestinian people lesser human beings who don't deserve basic human rights and the only way to both guarantee these rights while eliminating the causes that led Hamas to taking power in the first place.

You guys are ok with the status quo, where the terrorist group that runs Gaza gets to massacre tons of Jews and Israel isn't allowed to go anything about it.  How dare you accuse me of being the inhumane one.  Your unwillingness to consider any alternative to the status quo just indicates that you're OK with it.

And you were okay with the status quo where Israel has blockaded the Gaza strip for sixteen years, killed thousands in bombings, while keeping the rest of the Palestinians under an apartheid regime (while killing hundreds there as well). Sorry, you don't get to claim the moral high ground just because the side you sympathize with was the one that suffered most this time.

I've seen the governance in Islamic Nations, and it cannot be at all justified. Apartheid is enforced against non-muslims, and muslim women.  Apostacy is illegal.  Homosexuals are murdered.  There leaders rule with an iron fist.  Many of these countries are military dictatorships  We know exactly what Iran and Gazans will do if they get a strong military or political foothold in Israel.  Both Saudi Arabia and Turkey know know what will happen if Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, which is why they are allowing Israel to fly over them.

It was 17 years ago when the Gazans elected Hamas to govern their country.  Hamas has banned  elections since that times.  The main reason Israel blockaded Gaza was to stem the flow of weapons into the strip.  The IDF has performed minor military attacks to destroy tunnel systems.  How does this major attack by Hamas steer Israel towards a peaceful solution?  It won't, and it hasn't.  Instead, it has turned many 'peace at any cost' Israelis away from the idea of restraint.  And we told them that you would ask them to "show restraint" and guilt trip them with the same lines about humanity.  

[Hollywood]

About 5 hours ago, I told my co-worker that Egypt was involved.  There simply wasn't a way for the Gazans to pull-off this attack without help along the Egyptian border, and I wouldn't be surprised if soldiers from other countries were sent along with the weapons.  My co-worker thought I was crazy when I suggested it, and then he thought I'd lost my mind when I said Israel needed to push into the Sinai Peninsula.  Now he's onboard with an invasion of Egypt, even though I'm not really sure of it myself.  LOL.  

[Hollywood]

Yes, Hamas are animals. Amalekites, even. The videos they themselves released all weekend show this quite clearly.

Dehumanising rhetoric is how we beat dehumanising rhetoric, well done.

Dehumanizing people and ethnic groups is one of the main characteristics of fascism. No doubt where are Gallant and his friends in the Israeli government, ideologically speaking. It's not only Hamas, all the Palestinians are "human animals " for them. There are plenty of statements made by these people confirming that. Dehumanizing an entire people is the first step towards past, present and future atrocities. We'll see more unspeakable horrors

 Well done, yes

LOL.  They were dancing in the streets after Hamas attacked Israel.  They were chanting '700' to brag about how many people they killed.  They have dehumanized themselves by rejoicing in the blood of their enemy.  They couldn't even hide their happiness.  They are the fascists.  

[Hollywood]

About 5 hours ago, I told my co-worker that Egypt was involved.  There simply wasn't a way for the Gazans to pull-off this attack without help along the Egyptian border, and I wouldn't be surprised if soldiers from other countries were sent along with the weapons.  My co-worker thought I was crazy when I suggested it, and then he thought I'd lost my mind when I said Israel needed to push into the Sinai Peninsula.  Now he's onboard with an invasion of Egypt, even though I'm not really sure of it myself.  LOL.  

Egypt has no interest in helping Gaza in an attack of this kind. Of all Israel's Arab Muslim neighbors, they have the best relations with Egypt. It's a low bar, but still. In addition, Egypt has spent most of the past few decades under a mostly secular military dictatorship, repressing both the political Islamists and Palestinian militant groups. It is not in the Egyptian government's self-interest to support Hamas, even if regional sentiment and diplomacy mean that they have to make pro-Palestinian statements.

Hell, there's even credible (if-unconfirmed) reports that Egypt tried to tip Israel off to the attack and were ignored. I find it hard to believe they had any part in this.

It was just a theory I threw out to my co-worker earlier today.  I wasn't sure I believed it when I said it.  I just thought it was very unlikely that Egypt was without knowledge of the situation, and I can't imagine these weapons and soldiers sneaking into Gaza without some assistance from some faction in Egypt.  

Furthermore, I'm extremely suspicious of all the unconfirmed stories that seem designed to portray the attack as an Intelligence failure.  

[Hollywood]

If true, he should resign in disgrace
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711394276687388687

Should resign in disgrace anyway but yes. The independent investigation after this will be really important.

Even without the pre-invasion issues, this government has been embarrassing throughout the past few days- transportation, welfare, information, everything. The government ministers being incompetent sycophants shows. The focus right now is squarely on taking down hamas, but once it’s over they will have to pay a heavy political price or there’s really no hope.

The claim is totally fake.  It came from an anonymous source that is providing hearsay evidence.  

[Hollywood]

IDF has now taken full control of the Southern Border after eliminating all positions taken by Hamas soldiers.  They are still looking for terrorists that may be hiding around the community.  Residents have been given the 'green light' to leave their bomb shelters.  

Significant build-up of IDF soldiers on Lebanese Border.  All signs point to a significant attack by Hezbollah, but experts aren't sure whether this will come to fruition.  Large movement of Lebanese Civilians towards Beirut from Southern Lebanon.  

[Hollywood]

IDF has now taken full control of the Southern Border after eliminating all positions taken by Hamas soldiers.  They are still looking for terrorists that may be hiding around the community.  Residents have been given the 'green light' to leave their bomb shelters.  

Significant build-up of IDF soldiers on Lebanese Border.  All signs point to a significant attack by Hezbollah, but experts aren't sure whether this will come to fruition.  Large movement of Lebanese Civilians towards Beirut from Southern Lebanon.  

Source on the second paragraph? Very concerning if true.

They discussed it on I24 and TV7 Israel.  I have I24 on Xfinity.  

I found it on the I24 Homepage.  It's at the top. 
https://www.i24news.tv/en

[Hollywood]

IDF has now taken full control of the Southern Border after eliminating all positions taken by Hamas soldiers.  They are still looking for terrorists that may be hiding around the community.  Residents have been given the 'green light' to leave their bomb shelters.  

Significant build-up of IDF soldiers on Lebanese Border.  All signs point to a significant attack by Hezbollah, but experts aren't sure whether this will come to fruition.  Large movement of Lebanese Civilians towards Beirut from Southern Lebanon.  

Source on the second paragraph? Very concerning if true.

I'd take it with a grain of salt, given that Hollywood also casually pinned the initial invasion on Egypt earlier in the thread.

No I didn't.  I told my co-worker about a theory I had about factions in Egypt being involved, but I didn't claim to know anything.   

You should read more carefully. 

[Hollywood]

If you want some actual analysis on the situation--Hamas didn't do this seeking or expecting international sympathy for killing civilians, but their principal aims have been against the IDF as a military, and their goal is to strain the power of an IDF that has been acting almost entirely as an army of occupation in the West Bank and lost its last ground war against Hezbollah in 2006.

We all know that Israel can brute-force a total takeover of Gaza between air power and ground troops, but such an operation would lead to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of dead Israeli soldiers, and would be bogged down for weeks or months, and that's before the occupation. Is the Israeli military, government, and society actually ready for that? Not a rhetorical question, and if they aren't, then Hamas will have exposed their limits.

LOL... I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Hezbollah wasn't looking for International Sympathy when it killed women and children.  I give it about 72 hours before they beg for it.  

Unfortunately, I don't think Hamas has done anything to strain Israel's resources.  To the contrary, they are receiving resources from the United States, and the entire nation is now unified.  

In 2006, Israel wasn't prepared for the scale of support provided by Iran to Hezbollah, but it was hardly a victory for Lebanon.  The Civilian Infrastructure was severely damaged, and over 1 million Lebanese were displaced.  The IDF Military has become better experienced at hitting targets in high terrain areas.  

A ground force invasion would result in many Israeli deaths if they conduct actions like they did in the past.  I doubt they will use the same restraint this time around.  In fact, I imagine they will cut-off the border from Egypt, and turn Gaza into a fire cauldron.  

[Hollywood]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

The more you post, the more I realize you have a (very America-brained) child's understanding of this conflict, and of this part of the world more broadly.

This is absolutely silly talk (bolded quote).

You make Israel sound like a theocracy (which it is not).

I suspect you might have been intending to make another point altogether, but perhaps from the perspective of American Evangelical Christians who believes Jews should be converted to Jesus, this might make sense.

My Brother-in-Law, married to my older Sister, grew up in a Liberal Catholic background, but converted to Orthox-Judaism (Long story short), and would spend a significant amount of time attending their local Shul.

Sorry, Americans Jews, let alone Israeli Jews are completely done with the Christian Fundi attempt to "Convert Jews to Jesus".

Maybe I completely misinterpreted where you are coming from when you appear to be promoting the relaxation of laws protecting Ultra-Orthodox from IDF service?

I am a Jew.

This command comes from God through the Torah, not from any temporal power.

I am not particularly observant by any measure but I recognize that this mitzvah exists.

My point is that Torah study will be widespread in Israel whether the state promotes it or not.

I'm a Conservative Jew that grew-up Modern Orthodox.  You are correct.  It's in Deuteronomy 6:7.  

I agree that they need to relax rules protecting the ultra-orthodox from service.  It just can't be sustained.  

[Hollywood]

Again--where is this diversity of opinion in the American (or especially British in the past couple years) press?
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711391086609117660?s=20

Oh... So diversity of opinion means ever country has to have a press that parrots your opinion?

We get it.  2 million Gazans are stuck in an open prison that they can leave anytime they wish. They just can't go into Judea, because they can't be trusted not to murder and rape Jewish women and children.  

Where are they 'free to leave anytime' to? The Mediterranean Sea presumably? Israel doesn't even allow married Gazan's to travel between the strip and the West Bank afaik. I'm truly dumbfounded by this statement.

They can go into Egypt or any other country.  Then they can return to Gaza.  Go nutz. 

Obviously we can't let them cross into West Bank.  They might murder hundreds of people. 

[Hollywood]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

But Marco Rubio said something terrible so everything is 'even Steven' now.  BTW... He said "Complete Eradication of Hamas".  LOL. 

[Hollywood]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

Anytime I see a tweet, I know the post is full of s##t.  

Here's a video of the CNN Interview: https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/09/tl-sen-marco-rubio-jake-tapper-live.cnn

[Hollywood]

I don't think you guys understand what a complete elimination of Hamas and it's linkeages would entail.

Yes.  But that's not what you said.  You wrote, "Marco called for the genocide of Gaza".  That was a fabrication. Then you tried to justify this fabrication with a a tweet from some guy that was lying through exaggeration.  Now you're gaslighting.  

[Hollywood]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

No.  It is as easy as I think.  I think you were fooled into thinking Marco Rubio said he wanted to "eradicate Gazans" by some A-Hole on Twitter.  Then you realized you were incorrect.  Instead of just saying you made a mistake, we have to go through this whole charade.  

Like now you've changed your claim from "eradicate Gazans" to "Cause Mass Death".  Yes.  We get it.  Many people will die in the eradication of Hamas.  If they would like to save the lives of their Civilians, they should hand-over all the remaining hostages immediately.    

[Hollywood]

I don't think you guys understand what a complete elimination of Hamas and it's linkeages would entail.

Yes.  But that's not what you said.  You wrote, "Marco called for the genocide of Gaza".  That was a fabrication. Then you tried to justify this fabrication with a a tweet from some guy that was lying through exaggeration.  Now you're gaslighting.  

What? Rubio responded to a question on how to eliminate Hamas in Gaza without a genocide, and his response was Hamas must be eliminated no matter what, essentially calling for a genocide.

Yeah.  That's been my point the whole time.  You said, "Rubio called for the eradication of Gazans". That was false.      

I don't know why it's so hard for people to admit they made an error.  You made an error.  It happens.  Just stop gaslighting me.  

[Hollywood]

This is not how the world works, what you are advocating for is that you're fine with a mass death toll, just let me know in months from now how that pans out. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

oh I'd rather it not happen, I'd much rather have Hamas surrender or the non-Hamas in Gaza take care of their own mess, but Hamas already made their bed, they will sleep (and a long sleep at that) in it no matter what my (or your) opinion is.

I'm fully aware that's what will happen but I don't think we should be cheering that on, but whatever, apparently believing in the value of human life makes you pro-hamas or pro-apartheid.

Oh... Do you think we should be dancing and celebrating like the Gazans when the IDF takes those lives?  Or should we show some restraint?  Cause that s##t happened.   I don't anybody that's cheering for the death of civilians.  Israel has warned them to get out of the way cause those Hamas Terrorist will be eradicated.  It's sad that Hamas will be using those civilians as human shields.  

[Hollywood]

https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1711405575211282769

Don't know if this is true, but holy the incompetence if it is.

There's no evidence that it happened.  It's from an Anonymous Source that was supposedly told about a conversation (hearsay upon hearsay), and Israel says its disinformation disseminated to divide the country.  The Egyptian claimed something "big" was going to happen in Gaza. 

[Hollywood]

Holy s##t.  Hamas cut the heads off babies.  Wait until you see those pictures.  40 Dead Babies and counting. 
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war

[Hollywood]

There's no evidence that it happened.  It's from an Anonymous Source that was supposedly told about a conversation (hearsay upon hearsay), and Israel says its disinformation disseminated to divide the country.  The Egyptian claimed something "big" was going to happen in Gaza. 

The information comes from this report by the Associated Press. As a wire service with a strong reputation to uphold, the AP has very strict rules for using anonymous sources and is generally speaking very reliable with this sort of thing (and they certainly have no motive to "divide the country")

I practice law.  An anonymous source is not credible, particularly when they aren't contributing reliable information.  It's hearsay within hearsay.  John told me that Bill told Sam something big is about to happen.   Just cause the AP has low standards for evidence doesn't mean people should rely on it. 

And I never said the AP had a motive to divide the country.  Perhaps the anonymous source had a motive to divide Israel.  That's why we don't rely on an anonymous source in court.  There is no opportunity  to test the credibility of the witness. 

[Hollywood]

Holy s##t.  Hamas cut the heads off babies.  Wait until you see those pictures. 

Snowbigtot, Laki(ng) and the...ahem...others, agree that this is bad, but, ya know, settlers, blah blah, occupation blah blah, whataboutery.

Just letting everybody know that Hamas cut the heads off babies.  It wasn't about you or anyone else in the thread.

[Hollywood]

Best speech Joe Biden has made during his entire administration.  Israel has the greenlight. 

[Hollywood]

Hamas has essentially screwed there people with the October 7th Massacre, because they woke-up every Jew across party lines.  Even if Biden wanted to stop Israel, he can't afford to piss away the influence, money and support from the Jewish communities around the country.  The Democrats have been boxed-in to a corner, because even the mere request that Israel cease-firing is even offending  the left-wing Jews.  You'll get kicked-out of Synagogue for mentioning it.  

We aren't playing game anymore.  It's good to see it actually happen.  I think it's also time for Israel to send the iron dome system to Ukraine, because we need to exert pressure on Russia.  I'm all about killing our mutual enemies.  If Bibi makes the call for reinforcements, Jewish troops trained by the American armed forces will be sent to fill the gaps.  Some are already on the way.  We'll take it to the end.     

[Hollywood]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

Neither did Timothy McVeigh. What an incredible standard we hold "the world's most humane army"

I'm not taking advice about human rights from a Russian.  You guys conducted the first holocaust in 1932-33 when you starved between 4-10 million civilians in Ukraine.  This was 13 years after the programs that killed hundreds of thousands of Jews.  You guys literally inspired Mosollini and Hitler.  They were both very impressed by Lenin's introduction of authoritarianism into Revolutionary Marxism.   

I suggest Russians keep their mouths shut while they conduct their planned attack on Ukraine this winter.  They've finally managed to stop the bleeding, but we all know how things can deteriorate for them when weapons start flowing-in from Israel. 

Can you not do the whole collective guilt thing?

Why?  Is it making you uncomfortable?  Are you calling for a ceasefire?  I rather enjoy learning about the Russian ideologies that inspired Hitler's viewpoint of the world.  I appreciate Russians defeating Hitler.  They should receive collective praise.  And they should also be confronted with the role the country played by destabilizing Germany.