Israel-Gaza war

[Hollywood]

Again--where is this diversity of opinion in the American (or especially British in the past couple years) press?
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711391086609117660?s=20

Oh... So diversity of opinion means ever country has to have a press that parrots your opinion?

We get it.  2 million Gazans are stuck in an open prison that they can leave anytime they wish. They just can't go into Judea, because they can't be trusted not to murder and rape Jewish women and children.  

Where are they 'free to leave anytime' to? The Mediterranean Sea presumably? Israel doesn't even allow married Gazan's to travel between the strip and the West Bank afaik. I'm truly dumbfounded by this statement.

They can go into Egypt or any other country.  Then they can return to Gaza.  Go nutz. 

Obviously we can't let them cross into West Bank.  They might murder hundreds of people. 

[Vosem]

Again--where is this diversity of opinion in the American (or especially British in the past couple years) press?
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711391086609117660?s=20

Oh... So diversity of opinion means ever country has to have a press that parrots your opinion?

We get it.  2 million Gazans are stuck in an open prison that they can leave anytime they wish. They just can't go into Judea, because they can't be trusted not to murder and rape Jewish women and children.  

Where are they 'free to leave anytime' to? The Mediterranean Sea presumably? Israel doesn't even allow married Gazan's to travel between the strip and the West Bank afaik. I'm truly dumbfounded by this statement.

12% of Gazans have left since Hamas seized power in the Strip; they are free to leave to wherever will take them. (My guess is Hamas probably fights emigration in some way, but not with enough success to stop 12% of Gazans from leaving.)

Some open air prison that people leave routinely and which bombs its surroundings!

That said, immigration is not easy, logistically or spiritually, and expecting everyone to have left is not realistic. Unfortunately their (unelected!) government has pursued a policy of maximizing civilian casualties in wartime for propaganda purposes, and in general in conflicts against regimes which have committed similar crimes inflicting very severe civilian casualties, including leveling cities used as communications/supply hubs, has not been considered a crime.

Israel must take every measure reasonable to minimize civilian casualties -- it has an obligation to the world to do this -- but equally it must not allow minimizing civilian casualties to take priority over the destruction of the Gazan regime and its ideology. It has an obligation to the world on this point as well.

[Vice President Christian Man]

Since my feelings have cooled down a little, I'll offer my 2 cents;

I'm still very pro-Israel in the crisis. I don't have a problem with people who are Pro-Palestine, although I believe that actively cheerleading for Hamas or other radical Islamic terror groups is a problematic stance and there's a difference. However some of the recent rhetoric regarding Palestinians as "animals" is also problematic. The primary goal should be to capture and hold those involved responsible for their actions, preferably in a type of military tribunal and retaliate if any other forces were involved which at this point is mixed with spotty at best allegations. I respect Israel's right to self-defense, however it should be done in a way that minimizes civilian casualties which unfortunately I doubt is their intentions, especially as evacuating civilians is impractical at best given Gaza's geography. I personally hope Biden takes a similar approach to what he's been doing in Ukraine, staying out but proving Israel with aid, although because of the complexity of the situation I acknowledge that there may not be an easy or practical solution at least in the short-term.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Sydney Palestinians go full anti-Semitic in public

"F#@k the Jews, F#&k Israel".

"The rally began in central Sydney to show support for the Palestinian people after Hamas militants killed hundreds of people in Israel and Israeli forces responded by launching a barrage of rocket fire on Gaza."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-10/nsw-police-respond-rally-jewish-community-sydney-opera-house/102955090


Police keeping the pro-Palestinians from damaging the Opera House. (ABC News: Sean Tarek Goodwin)

The pro-Palestinian organisers initially said they were "very happy" with events in Israel on October 7.

When the NSW Government said they were going to light up the Opera House in the colours of the Israeli flag, the pro-Palestijians were then "not very happy".

Police have defended their decision to ask Jews not to enter the CBD because of the threat of violence.

Lebanese and Palestinians free to live in Australia have consistently broadcast their hatred towards Israel at these moments. That is subject to interpretation and argument.

But what is not in dispute is the contribution to criminal activity they have introduced to Sydney.

A not insignificant source of income for Lebanese citizens is drug dealing in Western Sydney, so the community ties into criminal activity here amongst Lebanese and Palestinian migrants is endemic.

[Intell]

What I've definitely seen is "normie" Democrats, mostly older, who defaulted to soft Israel support get galvanized into more vociferous Israel support, along with a lot of very loud voices from the sorts of KHive circles (and some weird cult called the school bonds wolves who dox people? IDK if you've heard of them) who got negatively polarized into aggressively supporting Israel. I have not seen minds changed outright.

Well, "stuff I've seen" is for me basically never representative. I'm glad you agree on the KHive stuff, though -- I pointed out back in our discussion back in 2021 that there had already been a significant pro-Israel turn among plugged-in centrist Democrats (and that, in particular, volunteers for the Biden and Buttigieg campaigns seemed to be commonly drawn from pro-Israel organizations at the university level). There had already been some amount of negative polarization, where those who disliked Sanders/Warren had already become fairly stridently pro-Israel. Few Democratic communities were against Sanders and Warren in quite the way the most strident Kamala supporters were in 2019. The current movement is among those sociologically similar to those people, but not so tuned in that they would've gone and worked for a campaign.

(In general -- while I did not call that an attack like this would happen and my guess was that Hamas would get in trouble for sheltering some foreign terrorist group -- I want to note that I was correct in saying that Palestinian liberationism would behave in ways cartoonishly evil enough that the trend of it losing international support would continue after 2021. I also called increasing Israeli radicalism not being very relevant to opinion abroad.)

I've also seen Left-Zionists simultaneously advocate aggressive force against Gaza as well as an end to the West Bank occupation and an openness to discussing the occupation (in and of itself and as something which strained the IDF due to the right's fixation on it).

I haven't really seen that; I guess I've seen Haaretz not change its position. But the Haaretz editorial line has been very extreme for a while; back in 2016-2017 I recall it getting condemned for anti-Semitism by both quite left-wing Israel-skeptical American Jewish journalists and also the Israeli left at that time, and links to it have dropped precipitously since that time. Their business model had been based for a long time on getting attention by writing provocative things, so being behind a paywall is very strange.

But what I've seen from politicians within Israel is Meretz members advocating courses of action that would've been considered edgy and controversial among the hawkish right, like, last week.

What I've seen is a massive splintering between the centre-left, the left, and the far-left on Isreal-Palestine.

The centre-left (in Australia) has switched from being ambivalent calling for 2SS to be ferociously on the side of Isreal, openly supporting Isreal's right to fully defend itself.

The left has stayed nominally the same, supporting Palestinian liberation but is being isolated between the far-left who are cheering on civilian genocide and the centre-left who have switched to being pro-Israel.

The far-left have been disgusting people who are fine with terrorism and are eliminating any chance of a cease-fire or peace campaign.

[PSOL]

Nothing I say here is accidental

We know our history, what can I say!

[Matty]

If you are blaming israel for cutting power and water to gaza, grow the hell up.

Hamas is using *every resource possible* for this war. Israel has no choice but to cut their lines.

Also, ASK YOURSELF WHY HAMAS HAS MISMANAGED GAZA SO BADLY SINCE 2005 THAT THEY RELY ON THEIR MORTAL ENEMIES FOR VITAL UTILITIES.

All this is moot point. Hamas will be gone soon and large portions of gaza will be made into a parking lot.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

[Intell]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

[Pericles]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

[Hollywood]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

But Marco Rubio said something terrible so everything is 'even Steven' now.  BTW... He said "Complete Eradication of Hamas".  LOL. 

[Intell]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

[Intell]

I don't think you guys understand what a complete elimination of Hamas and it's linkeages would entail.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

He is clearly talking about Hamas here.

[Pericles]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

What makes more sense-he's talking about Hamas or that he dodges the question to advocate genocide and killing kids? It is very obvious from the context!

[Hollywood]

I went to a service today at my local synagogue (who hate Netanyahu & have sermons about protecting the rights of Palestinians). We had someone speak whose family had been raped and murdered by Hamas. Meanwhile, I go on Twitter and then see that Harvard students (in addition to certain individuals around here) have released a statement that this rape is justified because Israel exists.

I ing hate this world.

Not doing both sides, because the Harvard Student's refusal to condemn Hamas/their justification is disgusting, but Marco Rubio has called for the genocide of Gaza. Disgusting stuff all around.

Pretty sure he meant eradicating Hamas, so I think so far Israel and it's supporters are just using careless wording.

https://twitter.com/digby56/status/1711491477216678023

Anytime I see a tweet, I know the post is full of s##t.  

Here's a video of the CNN Interview: https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/09/tl-sen-marco-rubio-jake-tapper-live.cnn

[Intell]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

[Hollywood]

I don't think you guys understand what a complete elimination of Hamas and it's linkeages would entail.

Yes.  But that's not what you said.  You wrote, "Marco called for the genocide of Gaza".  That was a fabrication. Then you tried to justify this fabrication with a a tweet from some guy that was lying through exaggeration.  Now you're gaslighting.  

[dead0man]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

if Hamas wants to save lives and surrender, the world and Israel would love that.  If the non-Hamas in Gaza want to fix their own problem and take care of Hamas themselves, the world and Israel would love that even more.


Otherwise...

[Intell]

I don't think you guys understand what a complete elimination of Hamas and it's linkeages would entail.

Yes.  But that's not what you said.  You wrote, "Marco called for the genocide of Gaza".  That was a fabrication. Then you tried to justify this fabrication with a a tweet from some guy that was lying through exaggeration.  Now you're gaslighting.  

What? Rubio responded to a question on how to eliminate Hamas in Gaza without a genocide, and his response was Hamas must be eliminated no matter what, essentially calling for a genocide.

[Intell]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

if Hamas wants to save lives and surrender, the world and Israel would love that.  If the non-Hamas in Gaza want to fix their own problem and take care of Hamas themselves, the world and Israel would love that even more.


Otherwise...

This is not how the world works, what you are advocating for is that you're fine with a mass death toll, just let me know in months from now how that pans out. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Hollywood]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

No.  It is as easy as I think.  I think you were fooled into thinking Marco Rubio said he wanted to "eradicate Gazans" by some A-Hole on Twitter.  Then you realized you were incorrect.  Instead of just saying you made a mistake, we have to go through this whole charade.  

Like now you've changed your claim from "eradicate Gazans" to "Cause Mass Death".  Yes.  We get it.  Many people will die in the eradication of Hamas.  If they would like to save the lives of their Civilians, they should hand-over all the remaining hostages immediately.    

[PSOL]

Showcasing civilizational cope since 1999

[Intell]

Now what does completely eliminate Hamas entail? It's not as easy as you guys think and if done fully it will cause mass deaths.

No.  It is as easy as I think.  I think you were fooled into thinking Marco Rubio said he wanted to "eradicate Gazans" by some A-Hole on Twitter.  Then you realized you were incorrect.  Instead of just saying you made a mistake, we have to go through this whole charade.  

Like now you've changed your claim from "eradicate Gazans" to "Cause Mass Death".  Yes.  We get it.  Many people will die in the eradication of Hamas.  If they would like to save the lives of their Civilians, they should hand-over all the remaining hostages immediately.    

Maybe genocide is the wrong terminology, but please tell me how you eradicate Hamas without a genocide-scale death toll occurring

[Intell]

Ok whatever I'll say this, hopefully will live in this utopian world where Israel can eliminate Hamas without hundreds of thousands of people dying. I'd love to live in that world, so hopefully you people are right.