Israel-Gaza war

[GoTfan]

e-fire-gaza-israel-hamas-war/]Yesterday, the European Parliament called for Hamas's total disarmament as a precondition for ceasefire, which isn't quite as strident as my demand ("Hamas must agree to implement Israeli policies in good faith"), but also constitutes a demand for Israeli military victory, basically.

“I would say this is a moral failure of the European Parliament,” said Palestine’s Deputy Head of Mission Adel Atieh. “With this vote, Europe is losing credibility,” he said. However, he said there are “positive” aspects of the vote, such as its call to end Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories and support for the work of the International Court of Justice, where Israel is facing accusations of genocide.

Israel’s Ambassador to the EU Haim Regev said: “We are happy to see that the European Parliament understands the need to release the hostages and disarm Hamas before any cease-fire.”

The 'credibility' comment from the Palestinian diplomat is so strange -- surely nothing imparts credibility more than military victories, and takes away from it more than military defeats? Whose opinion is possibly being referred to here?

Hopefully in its next vote the EU will recognize that the occupation must not end until the mainstream of Palestinian nationalism adopts a pro-Zionism stance.

So not only do you consider Palestinians less than human; not only do you accuse me of supporting slavery; not only is any amount of civilian casualties acceptable to you; you also seem to support right of conquest.

You are a thoroughly evil human being.

[GoTfan]

There's a reason I have GoTFan on ignore and I would highly suggest the rest of you follow suit.

I generally don't like associating with people who accuse me of supporting slavery

[GoTfan]

e-fire-gaza-israel-hamas-war/]Yesterday, the European Parliament called for Hamas's total disarmament as a precondition for ceasefire, which isn't quite as strident as my demand ("Hamas must agree to implement Israeli policies in good faith"), but also constitutes a demand for Israeli military victory, basically.

“I would say this is a moral failure of the European Parliament,” said Palestine’s Deputy Head of Mission Adel Atieh. “With this vote, Europe is losing credibility,” he said. However, he said there are “positive” aspects of the vote, such as its call to end Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories and support for the work of the International Court of Justice, where Israel is facing accusations of genocide.

Israel’s Ambassador to the EU Haim Regev said: “We are happy to see that the European Parliament understands the need to release the hostages and disarm Hamas before any cease-fire.”

The 'credibility' comment from the Palestinian diplomat is so strange -- surely nothing imparts credibility more than military victories, and takes away from it more than military defeats? Whose opinion is possibly being referred to here?

Hopefully in its next vote the EU will recognize that the occupation must not end until the mainstream of Palestinian nationalism adopts a pro-Zionism stance.

So not only do you consider Palestinians less than human; not only do you accuse me of supporting slavery; not only is any amount of civilian casualties acceptable to you; you also seem to support right of conquest.

You are a thoroughly evil human being.

I consider Palestinians as human as anyone else. (Just as human as the people who raised me and their comrades-in-arms, for instance.) Nobody expects Ukraine to stop fighting to save civilians, because that is obviously ridiculous. (And, for the record, if your political position really is such an absolute pacifism that you think fighting authoritarians is not justified if it causes civilian casualties, then you are simply a naive person who knows nothing of the world. But I don't think this is true: I think you refuse to see how evil Palestinian liberationist organizations are, so you would prefer not to live in a world where they are destroyed.)

Yes, if you want Palestinian liberationist organizations to come to power, you support slavery. This is a very important under-discussed point; if you are against slavery, you essentially must oppose Palestinian liberationism. (Even beyond Hamas itself, setting the precedent that anti-authoritarians should step back if civilian casualties get too high would radically empower political organizations who don't care much about civilian casualties -- y'know, slavers, like the Houthis or the RSF.)

I don't think that organizations like Hamas should get a ceasefire card if the civilian casualty count gets too high. Sticking to that standard is how you reach the world run by slavers.

Please learn to think about the consequences of your beliefs, GoTfan, particularly if (I will delete this section if you ask me to, since it is partially a response to your DMs) you or your family has some specific experience with slavery.

Do. Not. Accuse. Me. Of. Supporting. Slavery.

[GoTfan]

There have been a lot of big post chains in this thread since I last checked it but one thing I would like to say is that I do think it is bad to arrest a 16-year-old for throwing rocks at a tank and detain them in prison for a year without trial.

The fact that Israel does bad things like this is pretty common knowledge and something they need to be better at.  However I am not going to stop supporting Israel in their struggle against evil forces who seek to annihilate the Jews from the face of the planet over comparatively minor human rights issues like this.

I also wish the Palestinians in the West Bank could be treated better by Israel in general, but it must be said that the West Bank is almost completely pacified and the Jews of Israel do not face a daily genocidal threat from their eastern border the way they do from Gaza.  So all-in-all I think it is a better situation and that Israel could reasonably aspire to treat Gaza the same way they do the West Bank.  Especially given that the unfolding of that genocidal threat in Gaza has now led to the complete demolition of Gaza and a far worse situation for Palestinians there than that faced in the West Bank.

Naturally I would prefer if none of this was necessary whatsoever, but I don't think it's fair for the world to demand that of Israel until Israel can be assured that a loosening of restrictions on the Palestinians won't just result in the empowering of that same genocidal threat.  I don't think we are very far away from that in the West Bank, to be honest.  

The problem is that it's a Catch 22. The extremes on both sides believe that moderates on both sides want to wipe the other aide of the map. Israel does have right of retaliation; my concern is for what comes after on both sides.

[GoTfan]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

Like, what makes you think this? I advocate for treating them the same way that people who raised me were treated (or treated others), and the same way I advocate treating anyone else who happens to live in a warzone. (Reminds me a few weeks ago when Badger brought up Cambodia and then immediately changed the subject when I gave the obvious answer). I don't distinguish between how I think the Palestinians should be treated and anyone else.

(Also I've called for besieging northern Yemen. But also, if you really think there are no wars worth winning, then you're just a fool.)

You've said that wiping every Gazan is a price you're willing to pay. You have called for Palestiniand to essentially be starved to death. You've also accused me of supporting slavery because I'm concerned about civilians caught in the crossfire, which is a far cry from supporting terrorists.

The difference between you and others is that to you, the mildest concern for innocent civilians is cause for labelling someone as a supporter of slavery and terrorism.

[GoTfan]

They don't have memory, they're just blinded by hatred

https://twitter.com/returnstosender/status/1748747028941738369?t=MSa1o6rTDUc1N7p...

Imagine actually believing this

So satellite images are part of the Hamas propaganda machine now?

[GoTfan]

They don't have memory, they're just blinded by hatred

https://twitter.com/returnstosender/status/1748747028941738369?t=MSa1o6rTDUc1N7p...

Imagine actually believing this

So satellite images are part of the Hamas propaganda machine now?

It is known that Hamas have executed Israeli hostages- obviously the IDF is going to search for their remains so that they can be returned to their families in Israel.

Not that that will stop people with an irrational hatred for Israel from deciding that this is yet another thing they can bash Israel over.

Excuse me? If you're going to mischaracterise me, at least put more effort into it that Vosem does.

[GoTfan]

They don't have memory, they're just blinded by hatred

https://twitter.com/returnstosender/status/1748747028941738369?t=MSa1o6rTDUc1N7p...

Imagine actually believing this

What do you not find believable? CNN is sensationalist but I'm not seeing the lie here..? Enlighten me.

I meant the fact that - if I am understanding it right - the tweet seems to be equating the destruction of cemeteries to the Holocaust.  That is an absurd, bizarre, and extremely offensive comparison.  It obviously sucks that some Palestinian cemeteries were destroyed, but to equate that property damage to the systematic mass murder of six million Jews can only be described as the product of a truly sick anti-Semitic mind.  Claiming this is straight out of the Holocaust is genuinely unhinged.  Straight out of the Holocaust would be if Israel was systematically trying to wipe out the entire Palestinian population (they very clearly are not) with death camps, gas chambers, forced sterilization, Einsatzgruppen-style death squads, etc, etc, etc.  

The person who made the tweet whose claim Velacso is uncritically latching onto is basically implying that tombstones at few cemeteries are of equivalent value to the lives of six million dead Jews, this is a wildly offensive and deeply anti-Semitic tweet (the same is true of Velasco’s post btw).  

I agree that the Holocaust comparison is a bit hyperbolic, I thought you were referring to the actual destruction of the graveyards being a lie.

No, unfortunately, I absolutely believe Israel has destroyed some grave sights and obviously that should be condemned.  I just took very serious issue with the Holocaust comparison.

The Holocaust comparison is completely nonsensical; it was a watershed moment in history that is rightfully held up as one of the worst crimes committed against humanity.

That said, none of these means we shouldn't demand a higher standard from Israel. I have always believe they have a right to exists as a sovereign state and homeland for the Jewish people, and I have no doubt my politics would be vastly different if I lived there. I'm no anti-Semite, despite some obvious bad-faith people trying to characterise me as one.

[GoTfan]

Hamas won't accept, and we'll continue to get anti-Israel protests throughout the United States demanding a "cease-fire" and blaming Israel (who offered a cease-fire) rather than Hamas (who rejected it) for there not being one.

Wanna know how I know this will happen?  Because, it's easy to forget, we already had a ceasefire shortly after Thanksgiving, and Hamas refused to release any more hostages and started attacking Israel again.

Not a single person, not a single organization, not a single protest or march or highway blockade or occupation of a Jewish student center, will call on Hamas to accept a cease-fire.  It will all continue to be Israel's, and solely Israel's, fault that this war continues.  The youth of this country will continue to operate under this premise that if a war has high civilian casualties, it's incumbent upon the winning party in the conflict to unilaterally and unconditionally end it and retreat.  A standard they don't apply to any other country, or any other conflict in world history.  A standard they invented solely so it could be applied to the Jewish country.

The leftists and their Arab academic allies are on a mission to destroy the Democratic Party in 2024.

Anyone genuinely believing this should seek a psychologist

[GoTfan]

Israel did not start this. Israel did not want this.

Hamas terrorist stronghold in Gaza.

Shejaiya Neighbourhood

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1FBex7NmYP/

Given the release of new rape and beheading videos of innocent Israeli's from October 7th together with the kidnapped hostages not being released, one cannot envisage Israel letting up any time soon.

One would imagine that the Gazan's are starting to regret their murder, rape and kidnapping spree of October 7th.

I find it hard to bieve that every Gazan supported it or took part in it. Then again, you're on record as saying that black people aren't real refugees and you support a guy who accused me of supporting slavery, so I'm not too surprised.

[GoTfan]

Call me a tinfoil hatter, but there is no way Israel, a country with the most sophisticated intelligence network in the world that regularly employs the Tenth Man Rule, was caught off-guard. There was some other reason why this slipped through the net.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

And dismissing any and all opposition to Israel's current actions as nothing but anti-Semitism just shuts the argument down and paints even mild critics like me as evil Hitler wannabes. We've already had one person accuse me of supporting slavery on here for expressing concern about civilians, despite knowing what I've said about my own family history.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

I'm not! I wasn't talking to you here! I was responding to someone who invoked the "genocide" blood libel about Israel, which is definitely not mild criticism of Israel and is definitely antisemitism.

Really, at the core of this is that Israel simply cannot live with Hamas on its border anymore. That's non-negotiable, and that's Hamas' doing.

I agree with that much; Hamas is a violent terrorist group that can and should be eradicated from the planet. My concern is and always has been for the people caught in the crossfire. i fervently believe that not every single Gazan is supportive of Hamas, just as not every single German was supportive of the Nazis.

Do I think that Hamas ought to be wiped out? Yes. Do I think that Israel has a right to exist as both a sovereign nation and home for the Jewish people? Yes. Do I also happen to think that some members of the current government and IDF support a form of collective punishment for all of Gaza? Yes.

Do I also think that all Israelis support the current government? Hell no. The protests against Bibi's attempt to make the courts a branch of the government make it clear that they don't. I don't doubt that my politics would be vastly different if I live there and honestly, I can see why Israelis have a lot contempt for my left-wing brethren at times. My concerns are for the civilian population of Gaza, which I find it difficult to believe are all Hamas supporters.

And I now realise I've probably just ticked off everyone in this debate.

[GoTfan]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

So we've had one person accuse me of supporting slavery, now we've got you accusing me of being a Hamas supporter.

Jesus Christ. What would be enough for you, Gmac? Me saying I don't care about dead people?

[GoTfan]

The only reason I hold the West to a high standard is we are supposed to be better than the people we're fighting. Idealistic maybe, but at what amount of dead Gazans is okay? We know where Vosem stands; he's on record as saying that wiping them out is acceptable.

At what point is the line drawn?

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

By that definition, I have to assume you believe it's okay to use chemical and biological weapons. After all, why should we apply the standard there to ourselves?

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

By that definition, I have to assume you believe it's okay to use chemical and biological weapons. After all, why should we apply the standard there to ourselves?

No. Either it is OK for everyone to use chemical and biological weapons, or it is OK for no one. I think it is OK for no one, but that is not me holding any Western country to a higher standard than a non-Western one.

I think it is plausible that in facing a rogue state which does not adhere to these rules a Western society might be forced to break them rather than face defeat, but (thankfully) nothing of the sort has happened over the past several decades. The Israeli campaign in Gaza is not actually a departure from global norms, and (part of the way that) you can tell because people are arguing for applying higher standards than the regular ones, under which they know that the Israeli campaign passes muster.

I've actually been pretty consistent in holding all Western nations to a higher standard because we.are suppose to be better than the people we're fighting.

The difference is I don't accuse people of supporting slavery or being Hamas supporters for having a different opinion to me. Oh, and I also don't believe killing everyone in Gaza is an acceptable price for destroying Hamas, just as I don't believe killing everyone in Afghanistan would be an acceptable price for wiping out the Taliban, nor do i think killing every Iranian to be acceptable price to wipe that disgusting theocracy from the planet

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies. How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves" Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

Didn't the US hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda? Or what about the Nazis and Japenese

Vosem seems to genuinely believe that anyone and everyone is a legitimate target. It's called unrestricted warfare. He is literally on record as saying that any amount of dead Gazans is justified if Hamas is destroyed.

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies. How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves" Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

Didn't the US hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda? Or what about the Nazis and Japenese

Vosem seems to genuinely believe that anyone and everyone is a legitimate target. It's called unrestricted warfare. He is literally on record as saying that any amount of dead Gazans is justified if Hamas is destroyed.

Some people don't understand that if you kill half of Gazans while eliminating everyone currently in Hamas, there will be something much more extreme to replace it.

No, this is not actually how history has worked to date; it is a lie from the anti-Vietnam movement meant to discourage American intervention in Southeast Asia. You absolutely can defeat ideas by force. The video below, once a patriotic song in East Germany, is a testament to a recent example of this (so recent that I have met participants in the effort); if you teach people that the consequence of an idea is the violent response of the entire world, then they will abandon that idea. This is what violent ideas seeking to overrun existing countries fundamentally deserve.

Wir haben in Schlachten das Heer uns geschaffen,
Und schlagen den Feind, der uns frech überrannt,
Entscheiden das Los von Geschlechtern mit Waffen,
Und führen zum Ruhm unser heimatlich Land.

Right, except you can't really compare the situations here with a conflict in Europe (where an alt-right azi-adjacent party is leading the polls by the way) with this one, which has entrenched itself over the last 76.

By the way, when are you going to walk back your acdusation that I support slavery?

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies. How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves" Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

Didn't the US hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda? Or what about the Nazis and Japenese

Vosem seems to genuinely believe that anyone and everyone is a legitimate target. It's called unrestricted warfare. He is literally on record as saying that any amount of dead Gazans is justified if Hamas is destroyed.

Some people don't understand that if you kill half of Gazans while eliminating everyone currently in Hamas, there will be something much more extreme to replace it.

No, this is not actually how history has worked to date; it is a lie from the anti-Vietnam movement meant to discourage American intervention in Southeast Asia. You absolutely can defeat ideas by force. The video below, once a patriotic song in East Germany, is a testament to a recent example of this (so recent that I have met participants in the effort); if you teach people that the consequence of an idea is the violent response of the entire world, then they will abandon that idea. This is what violent ideas seeking to overrun existing countries fundamentally deserve.

Wir haben in Schlachten das Heer uns geschaffen,
Und schlagen den Feind, der uns frech überrannt,
Entscheiden das Los von Geschlechtern mit Waffen,
Und führen zum Ruhm unser heimatlich Land.

Right, except you can't really compare the situations here with a conflict in Europe (where an alt-right azi-adjacent party is leading the polls by the way) with this one, which has entrenched itself over the last 76.

By the way, when are you going to walk back your acdusation that I support slavery?

Sure you can; I just did. One side has decided to break international law by trying to conquer an existing country, and the other side is not that. The situations are very analogous, down to the victor being substantially (although far from entirely) armed by the United States.

I will walk back this accusation when you support the forces fighting Hamas and the Houthis.

I do. I just happen to not think that the deaths of every civilian in Gaza is justifiable.

Walk back the slavery accusation. It's a disgusting thing to accuse me of when you know damn well what my family history is.

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies. How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves" Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

Didn't the US hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda? Or what about the Nazis and Japenese

Vosem seems to genuinely believe that anyone and everyone is a legitimate target. It's called unrestricted warfare. He is literally on record as saying that any amount of dead Gazans is justified if Hamas is destroyed.

Some people don't understand that if you kill half of Gazans while eliminating everyone currently in Hamas, there will be something much more extreme to replace it.

No, this is not actually how history has worked to date; it is a lie from the anti-Vietnam movement meant to discourage American intervention in Southeast Asia. You absolutely can defeat ideas by force. The video below, once a patriotic song in East Germany, is a testament to a recent example of this (so recent that I have met participants in the effort); if you teach people that the consequence of an idea is the violent response of the entire world, then they will abandon that idea. This is what violent ideas seeking to overrun existing countries fundamentally deserve.

Wir haben in Schlachten das Heer uns geschaffen,
Und schlagen den Feind, der uns frech überrannt,
Entscheiden das Los von Geschlechtern mit Waffen,
Und führen zum Ruhm unser heimatlich Land.

Right, except you can't really compare the situations here with a conflict in Europe (where an alt-right azi-adjacent party is leading the polls by the way) with this one, which has entrenched itself over the last 76.

By the way, when are you going to walk back your acdusation that I support slavery?

Sure you can; I just did. One side has decided to break international law by trying to conquer an existing country, and the other side is not that. The situations are very analogous, down to the victor being substantially (although far from entirely) armed by the United States.

I will walk back this accusation when you support the forces fighting Hamas and the Houthis.

I do. I just happen to not think that the deaths of every civilian in Gaza is justifiable.

Walk back the slavery accusation. It's a disgusting thing to accuse me of when you know damn well what my family history is.

GoTfan, we had a long conversation over DMs, in which I wrote you substantial information about my family history, but all you said was that you had a "personal history" with slavery. You did not tell me what your family history is. Whatever it is, I'm sorry that it happened to you and your loved ones, and I sincerely think that you're a well-intentioned person. You have every right to disagree with my views; but I think yours are wrong and very dangerous.

It's 2 AM here and I'm going to leave this conversation.

You obviously don't think that. You've accused me of supporting slavery and tried to characterise me as a Hamas supporter.

[GoTfan]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

[GoTfan]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

What does one thing have to do with another?

I just find it interesting the standards being applied here.

Someone raising points that should probably be considered=troll.

Someone who repeatedly accuses another poster of supporting slavery=not a troll.

[GoTfan]

"The occupied" are not being "framed" as terrorists.  They are terrorists.  They are committing acts of terror right now as we speak by launching rockets into Israel, not as part of any military objective, but merely as part of a campaign to maim or kill as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible.  10/7 was an act of terror.  The two intifadas were full-on campaigns of terror.  Various bombings and killings committed enthusiastically and to great applause by the Palestinian fighters trivially meet the widely-accepted definitions of acts of terror.

The standard that leftists apply to this makes no sense.  So if someone merely considers their own cause to be just, then their acts of terror can not be labeled as such?  This exact same thinking could be used to argue that 9/11 was not a terrorist attack.  It makes sense that this is the thinking though given that this exact same thought process has been used by leftists time and time again over the last decade to justify domestic violence ranging from highway/airport blockades to property destruction, looting, arson, even the murders at CHAZ.  We committed these violent crimes for what we believed to be a good cause therefore everyone is obligated to respect them and no one is permitted to call them what they so obviously are.

Terrorism is terrorism.  You may say that it is terrorism in service of a good cause -- the French Resistance, Irgun, and Sons of Liberty are all celebrated by mainstream parties of their respective countries today -- but what you can not do is try and recraft a definition simply to avoid having to apply it to a group you celebrate.  Hamas committed an act of terrorism by wantonly slaughtering 1200 innocent Jews -- almost all civilians -- on October 7, 2023, followed by the kidnapping, rape, torture, and in many cases delayed murder of about 300 more.  If you think that was justified in the name of the liberation of Palestine from the "oppressors" then have the balls to say so.  Own it.

You seem to be arguing that every Gazan is a terrorist.

My family ancestry is primarily German. Does that make them Nazis?