Israel-Gaza war

[Open Source Intelligence]

Sorry, if you invade a nation and install a "government" that answers to Israel, and only Israel, that government is de facto Israeli occupation. Vichy France was Germany.  At some level you know this. But, somehow you think that it would be a fig leaf to impose policies that apparently you are unwilling to suggest Israel implement directly. At some level I am sure that you are aware that you are sentencing the "collaborators" to death, but, I don't think you care. The local population will kill them all in the fullness of time. They will live short lives, watching their backs, and living in fear. These are people you simply don't care about, so have no problem using up. I doubt Israel will find sufficient volunteers. Then, you are going to have to find "teachers" who are willing to teach the Israeli-directed propaganda. Some of these teachers will suffer the fate of other collaborators, but the vast majority won't be inspired by the project and will do a lousy job. The kids parents will do a good job at radicalizing them. Israel doesn't have the death penalty, so no one is going to swing from a rope. [And, don't give me crap about Israel passing the death penalty because it will be used to selectively target non-Jews, something that is allegedly very bad in your judgment.]

The Eastern Bloc existed, quite stably, for 40 years, after which point it became unnecessary. You just can't argue with the actual experience of history. (And Vichy, unlike the Eastern Bloc, was brought down by foreign invasion rather than rebellion from within.)

The point of war is not to plant your flag on territory, but, rather, to achieve your political goals thru the use of force. HAMAS has achieved its political goals. Sure, each and every member of HAMAS just might die, but, the goals are still achieved. Israel is much further from achieving its political goals than it was in September. People swinging from a rope won't alter these basic facts.

No, they didn't. The goal of 10/7 was to create a wider war in which other powers, like Hezbollah and Iran, would enter on Hamas's side. That didn't happen. Instead, a war emerged in which Egypt and Saudi Arabia chose to act as Israeli co-belligerents.  

In what way are we now closer to an independent Palestinian state? Much less one run by Hamas?

HAMAS stated their goal was to capture a sufficient number of Israelis to win the release of Palestinians held prisoner in Israel. And, yes, they are much closer to a Palestinian state than yesterday. Yesterday, it was a pipe dream, and, tomorrow it is actually on the table as the international community is forced to take another look at the situation. Nor, is it accurate to describe Egypt as a "co-belligerent." Israel wanted the Gaza population to flee thru Egypt and Egypt outright refused to play along.

The international community is gleefully arming Israel, and it is arming nearby countries to the extent that they agree to shoot down rockets from Hamas and the Houthis -- ie, to act as Israeli co-belligerents. The Israeli leader, who formally supported a Palestinian state from 2010-2024, withdrew this support after the attack. Multiple European countries have expelled pro-Palestinian demonstrators (notably France); the current front-runner in the American elections is a man who has promised to do so.

Gaza cannot fight a stronger opponent forever. And whatever cannot go on forever will eventually stop. Simple as.

He's more right than you on this Vosem. The only way Israeli strategy makes sense here looking at the long-term is they think the world is forever against them not coming back, and while they have American government shielding their actions, they might as well get away with as much as they can to better sustain their position over the long haul. The only way you can say these actions make Israel safer 20 years from now long after Netanyahu and some others in Cabinet are dead is you substantially reduce the number of Palestinian civilians in your borderlands. I'm not saying they're actively seeking to kill Palestinian civilians including women and children, but they want to destroy the area so bad that they will be forced to leave when no infrastructure is remaining, and using that to solve the problem of demographics where the average Palestinian's age is 18 years old while Israel suffers from having European-level birthrates. (It's really not that different than the Russian strategy in Ukraine, although Ukraine are way closer to equal militarily to Russia than the Palestinian militias are to Israel).

Israel are secure in the sense of wealth and weaponry, but I don't think they'll be able to count on America as an ally protecting them forever. Biden's part of a generation of Democratic Party leadership that will be retiring/dying/leaving office very very soon (we're talking a few years at most), and the next generation of leadership will be more like Obama than Biden just taking a look around the people that makeup the party. The one saving grace for Republican support of Israel is American Protestant Christianity, I see zero other reason to explain it (spare me nonsense about "it is what is right", there is so much stuff in foreign policy where we don't do what is right and the public does not care). And while Trump plays it up, I see it where I live, him taking control of the party up-and-down has greatly reduced the power of Christian conservatives inside the party. Even the candidates that are Christian conservatives they see more success acting like a Trump nationalist when it comes to votes getting cast. As for the rest of the world, the past couple decades Arabs and Muslims have done a really good job taking over Western left political parties on this issue. The Global South has chosen to see this as an imperial colonialism conflict and so are backing the Palestinians. From where is Israel getting external support as this leadership group across the world ages, dies, and is then replaced?

[Vosem]

Sorry, if you invade a nation and install a "government" that answers to Israel, and only Israel, that government is de facto Israeli occupation. Vichy France was Germany.  At some level you know this. But, somehow you think that it would be a fig leaf to impose policies that apparently you are unwilling to suggest Israel implement directly. At some level I am sure that you are aware that you are sentencing the "collaborators" to death, but, I don't think you care. The local population will kill them all in the fullness of time. They will live short lives, watching their backs, and living in fear. These are people you simply don't care about, so have no problem using up. I doubt Israel will find sufficient volunteers. Then, you are going to have to find "teachers" who are willing to teach the Israeli-directed propaganda. Some of these teachers will suffer the fate of other collaborators, but the vast majority won't be inspired by the project and will do a lousy job. The kids parents will do a good job at radicalizing them. Israel doesn't have the death penalty, so no one is going to swing from a rope. [And, don't give me crap about Israel passing the death penalty because it will be used to selectively target non-Jews, something that is allegedly very bad in your judgment.]

The Eastern Bloc existed, quite stably, for 40 years, after which point it became unnecessary. You just can't argue with the actual experience of history. (And Vichy, unlike the Eastern Bloc, was brought down by foreign invasion rather than rebellion from within.)

The point of war is not to plant your flag on territory, but, rather, to achieve your political goals thru the use of force. HAMAS has achieved its political goals. Sure, each and every member of HAMAS just might die, but, the goals are still achieved. Israel is much further from achieving its political goals than it was in September. People swinging from a rope won't alter these basic facts.

No, they didn't. The goal of 10/7 was to create a wider war in which other powers, like Hezbollah and Iran, would enter on Hamas's side. That didn't happen. Instead, a war emerged in which Egypt and Saudi Arabia chose to act as Israeli co-belligerents.  

In what way are we now closer to an independent Palestinian state? Much less one run by Hamas?

HAMAS stated their goal was to capture a sufficient number of Israelis to win the release of Palestinians held prisoner in Israel. And, yes, they are much closer to a Palestinian state than yesterday. Yesterday, it was a pipe dream, and, tomorrow it is actually on the table as the international community is forced to take another look at the situation. Nor, is it accurate to describe Egypt as a "co-belligerent." Israel wanted the Gaza population to flee thru Egypt and Egypt outright refused to play along.

The international community is gleefully arming Israel, and it is arming nearby countries to the extent that they agree to shoot down rockets from Hamas and the Houthis -- ie, to act as Israeli co-belligerents. The Israeli leader, who formally supported a Palestinian state from 2010-2024, withdrew this support after the attack. Multiple European countries have expelled pro-Palestinian demonstrators (notably France); the current front-runner in the American elections is a man who has promised to do so.

Gaza cannot fight a stronger opponent forever. And whatever cannot go on forever will eventually stop. Simple as.

He's more right than you on this Vosem. The only way Israeli strategy makes sense here looking at the long-term is they think the world is forever against them not coming back, and while they have American government shielding their actions, they might as well get away with as much as they can to better sustain their position over the long haul. The only way you can say these actions make Israel safer 20 years from now long after Netanyahu and some others in Cabinet are dead is you substantially reduce the number of Palestinian civilians in your borderlands. I'm not saying they're actively seeking to kill Palestinian civilians including women and children, but they want to destroy the area so bad that they will be forced to leave when no infrastructure is remaining, and using that to solve the problem of demographics where the average Palestinian's age is 18 years old while Israel suffers from having European-level birthrates. (It's really not that different than the Russian strategy in Ukraine, although Ukraine are way closer to equal militarily to Russia than the Palestinian militias are to Israel).

Israel are secure in the sense of wealth and weaponry, but I don't think they'll be able to count on America as an ally protecting them forever. Biden's part of a generation of Democratic Party leadership that will be retiring/dying/leaving office very very soon (we're talking a few years at most), and the next generation of leadership will be more like Obama than Biden just taking a look around the people that makeup the party. The one saving grace for Republican support of Israel is American Protestant Christianity, I see zero other reason to explain it (spare me nonsense about "it is what is right", there is so much stuff in foreign policy where we don't do what is right and the public does not care). And while Trump plays it up, I see it where I live, him taking control of the party up-and-down has greatly reduced the power of Christian conservatives inside the party. Even the candidates that are Christian conservatives they see more success acting like a Trump nationalist when it comes to votes getting cast. As for the rest of the world, the past couple decades Arabs and Muslims have done a really good job taking over Western left political parties on this issue. The Global South has chosen to see this as an imperial colonialism conflict and so are backing the Palestinians. From where is Israel getting support as this leadership group across the world ages, dies, and is then replaced?

Israel's demographic situation is stronger than her Arab neighbors, much less than European states. This is substantially fueled by high Jewish TFR, which at least within the pre-1967 boundaries is higher than Muslim TFR; considering emigration and immigration, pre-1967 Israel + West Bank are likely getting more Jewish. (Much of this is confounded by Gaza, which is poorer than the West Bank and has a higher fertility rate; Israel and Palestine actually both have sky-high fertility rates for their levels of economic development.)

I don't think opposition from the Global South is broadly sustainable in light of the spread of evangelical Protestantism; over the past decade, support for Israel has become a mainstay of right-wing Latin American campaigns (consider Milei, Bolsonaro, Bukele, Petro), while it previously didn't exist. This has also spread a great deal in Africa even if it hasn't really hit election campaigns there yet. Within Europe there's a long-term trend towards greater support for Israel; consider widespread embargoes in the 1970s, and sanctions after the bombing of Lebanon in the 1980s, compared with today's arms sales and protester deportations. (And the election of Wilders, literally on a platform of "Israel should deport all the Palestinians"; more extreme than Likud).

Within the Arab world there has been a backlash to an anti-government jihadist movement (associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in overwhelmingly-Sunni countries, and with Shi'a factions elsewhere); this backlash has led to the warmest relations with Israel basically ever, with multiple countries in this war supporting it either behind the scenes or overtly.

Within the United States evangelical Protestantism continued to grow throughout the 2010s, though it may have reached a peak in the early Biden era (too early to say). But it will continue to dominate the right for the foreseeable future. I think there are two phenomena which will tend to keep the left relatively favorable to the Israeli cause: one is likely greater militarism on the left over time, as the broad decline in trust in institutions means their old messages don't work, and when trust in institutions is held up by the military, the military's hobby-horses and interests will take a high priority; the second is just the same process that happened in Europe, whereby the pro-Palestinian movement is generally violent and offensive and so alienates people over time the louder it gets.

So...no. I think the international situation is getting better for Israel virtually across the board. My prediction prior to 10/7 was that in a few decades an international coalition would invade Gaza and depose the government there; I still think that for the next ~20 years the outlook is Israel continuing to get diplomatically stronger pretty much everywhere. Past that is difficult to tell, but the main thing militating in favor of it being fine indefinitely is actually just demographics: if every other country begins aging and dying off as Israel continues to grow, then it will become stronger relative to other countries quite rapidly. (Of course, growth in the Haredi sector might come with its own problems, but at the moment the rate of secularization is fast enough that we wouldn't expect those problems to really hit until the late 21st century, or further than I'm really trying to predict).

[Horus]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

Maybe in the past but his arguments here are solid.

[GoTfan]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

What does one thing have to do with another?

[GoTfan]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore. 

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

What does one thing have to do with another?

I just find it interesting the standards being applied here.

Someone raising points that should probably be considered=troll.

Someone who repeatedly accuses another poster of supporting slavery=not a troll.

[BigSkyBob]

Sorry, if you invade a nation and install a "government" that answers to Israel, and only Israel, that government is de facto Israeli occupation. Vichy France was Germany.  At some level you know this. But, somehow you think that it would be a fig leaf to impose policies that apparently you are unwilling to suggest Israel implement directly. At some level I am sure that you are aware that you are sentencing the "collaborators" to death, but, I don't think you care. The local population will kill them all in the fullness of time. They will live short lives, watching their backs, and living in fear. These are people you simply don't care about, so have no problem using up. I doubt Israel will find sufficient volunteers. Then, you are going to have to find "teachers" who are willing to teach the Israeli-directed propaganda. Some of these teachers will suffer the fate of other collaborators, but the vast majority won't be inspired by the project and will do a lousy job. The kids parents will do a good job at radicalizing them. Israel doesn't have the death penalty, so no one is going to swing from a rope. [And, don't give me crap about Israel passing the death penalty because it will be used to selectively target non-Jews, something that is allegedly very bad in your judgment.]

The Eastern Bloc existed, quite stably, for 40 years, after which point it became unnecessary. You just can't argue with the actual experience of history. (And Vichy, unlike the Eastern Bloc, was brought down by foreign invasion rather than rebellion from within.)

The point of war is not to plant your flag on territory, but, rather, to achieve your political goals thru the use of force. HAMAS has achieved its political goals. Sure, each and every member of HAMAS just might die, but, the goals are still achieved. Israel is much further from achieving its political goals than it was in September. People swinging from a rope won't alter these basic facts.

No, they didn't. The goal of 10/7 was to create a wider war in which other powers, like Hezbollah and Iran, would enter on Hamas's side. That didn't happen. Instead, a war emerged in which Egypt and Saudi Arabia chose to act as Israeli co-belligerents. 

In what way are we now closer to an independent Palestinian state? Much less one run by Hamas?

HAMAS stated their goal was to capture a sufficient number of Israelis to win the release of Palestinians held prisoner in Israel. And, yes, they are much closer to a Palestinian state than yesterday. Yesterday, it was a pipe dream, and, tomorrow it is actually on the table as the international community is forced to take another look at the situation. Nor, is it accurate to describe Egypt as a "co-belligerent." Israel wanted the Gaza population to flee thru Egypt and Egypt outright refused to play along.

The international community is gleefully arming Israel, and it is arming nearby countries to the extent that they agree to shoot down rockets from Hamas and the Houthis -- ie, to act as Israeli co-belligerents. The Israeli leader, who formally supported a Palestinian state from 2010-2024, withdrew this support after the attack. Multiple European countries have expelled pro-Palestinian demonstrators (notably France); the current front-runner in the American elections is a man who has promised to do so.

Gaza cannot fight a stronger opponent forever. And whatever cannot go on forever will eventually stop. Simple as.

The people of Gaza Strip aren't going anywhere. They can fight a "stronger opponent" for as long as they exist, which will be some semblance of forever. The Taliban was the weaker force, but, they could have fought indefinitely had they not prevailed. North Vietnam fought the Americans for over a decade before prevailing. Nor, is it rational to call Israel the "stronger opponent."  America is the strong player, and, Israel is along for the ride, for now. The millisecond the American government changes allegiance will be the millisecond Israel is the weaker opponent. You know this. Already, the majority of Americans under thirty side with HAMAS. In a year, the majority of those under thirty-one will side with HAMAS. In two years, the majority of Americans under 32 will side with HAMAS, etc. Time is simply on their side. You know this.

You can cherry-pick a statement here or there, but the vast majority of the West is appalled by the behavior of the Israelis and becoming more so every day. You know this.

French political self-determination ended when Hitler invaded, and simply wasn't restored when Vichy France was formed. Vichy=Germany is my point. You knew this, but you suggested otherwise.

The people of the Eastern Block did meekly accept Soviet Domination, at least after having their rebellions crushed by military might. But, Europeans are Europeans, and Palestinians are Palestinian. Religion, or religious fanaticism if you prefer, is the difference that has made a difference. You know this.

[Vosem]

The people of Gaza Strip aren't going anywhere.

According to Hamas's own statistics, an eighth of them have left since 2007! (Also, not to be offensive, but isn't the most famous event in recent Palestinian history a voluntary exodus caused by fear? We should ask pppolitics.)

They can fight a "stronger opponent" for as long as they exist, which will be some semblance of forever. The Taliban was the weaker force, but, they could have fought indefinitely had they not prevailed. North Vietnam fought the Americans for over a decade before prevailing. Nor, is it rational to call Israel the "stronger opponent."  America is the strong player, and, Israel is along for the ride, for now. The millisecond the American government changes allegiance will be the millisecond Israel is the weaker opponent. You know this. Already, the majority of Americans under thirty side with HAMAS. In a year, the majority of those under thirty-one will side with HAMAS. In two years, the majority of Americans under 32 will side with HAMAS, etc. Time is simply on their side. You know this.

Literally no? Polls show pluralities of Americans 18-29 support arming Israel. It's not the ludicrous >70% majorities of the Boomers, but that's fine. (Also, as I pointed out to pppolitics, there's a selection effect wherein anti-Zionists die younger because they tend to physical and mental weakness).

Israel fought multiple wars before American aid and won them fairly easily. Today its economy relative to that of its opponents is much larger.

That America got tired of fighting in Vietnam and Afghanistan is not super applicable to the Israeli case, because the Taliban were supplied through a Pakistani border the US could not control, and the Vietcong was supplied through a Cambodian border the US could not control, but Gaza's border with Egypt is easy to control, as is the West Bank's border with Jordan, which is like 90% Jewish settlements.

Lastly, all of this ignores that the Israelis have the higher fertility rate and will gradually become more numerically superior, even if you ignore the constant Palestinian emigration and continuing Jewish in-migration.

You can cherry-pick a statement here or there, but the vast majority of the West is appalled by the behavior of the Israelis and becoming more so every day. You know this.

Right, that's why Wilders won a giant landslide running on "Israel's response is not harsh enough", and Macron had to pacify French voters by deporting people who opposed the Israeli campaign.

Have you ever been to a Western country?

French political self-determination ended when Hitler invaded, and simply wasn't restored when Vichy France was formed. Vichy=Germany is my point. You knew this, but you suggested otherwise.

The people of the Eastern Block did meekly accept Soviet Domination, at least after having their rebellions crushed by military might. But, Europeans are Europeans, and Palestinians are Palestinian. Religion, or religious fanaticism if you prefer, is the difference that has made a difference. You know this.

No; recent history disproves you. There was no intifada from 1967-1988, and there hasn't been an insurgency in the West Bank from 2005 to the present. Palestinian rebellions have been easy to suppress (check out how one such suppression is going right now). Religion is no substitute for courage.

[Meclazine for Israel]

You can cherry-pick a statement here or there, but the vast majority of the West is appalled by the behavior of the Israelis and becoming more so every day. You know this.

That is not true. Most Australian's are appalled by what Hamas did on October 7, and only mention one thing, namely "regardless of what happens and what side you are on, make sure those Islamic terrorists don't come here".

Australia has had Jews in our community for over 150 years, and not once have they caused an issue.

The Palestinians and Lebanese muslims, on the other hand, operate the largest Australian crime networks and gangs making their style of barbaric crime and rape apparent in Australia for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes

Raping and kidnapping women and children is not freedom fighting.

[dead0man]

You can cherry-pick a statement here or there, but the vast majority of the West is appalled by the behavior of the Israelis and becoming more so every day. You know this.

That is not true. Most Australian's are appalled by what Hamas did on October 7, and only mention one thing, namely "regardless of what happens and what side you are on, make sure those Islamic terrorists don't come here".

Australia has had Jews in our community for over 150 years, and not once have they caused an issue.

The Palestinians and Lebanese muslims, on the other hand, operate the largest Australian crime networks and gangs making their style of barbaric crime and rape apparent in Australia for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes

Raping and kidnapping women and children is not freedom fighting.

the fact that all but one of these racists are currently living free in Australia is disturbing, especially since women are not allowed to defend themselves properly

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Right now, in the United States, if two people commit the same crime, and, one is a drug addict, and, one is not, they are not treated the same. We punish the more innocent one, and we try to rehabilitate the more guilty one. I think that is horrible public policy, but, I don't claim it is "prejudicial" in any fashion. You are asserting an ideal that simply does not exist in the real world.

As to proportional response, you are not being accurate, and, perhaps not truthful. Israel overran the Saini in 6 days. I don't take seriously the viewpoint that Israel could not have capture the Gaza Strip in 6 weeks. The conflict has been dragged out to maximize the damage to the physical infrastructure there. That is not targeting HAMAS, that is targeting civilians. Destroying every home is grossly disproportionate.

I don't think anything you are saying disproves my contention that "the law should be applied equally" is a desirable condition. This doesn't mean that there can't be mitigating factors -- I would support more lenient punishments for very young offenders, who might plausibly reform, than for older offenders, who are likelier to be set in their ways -- but these, too, should be applied equally.

I think highly mobile tank warfare is of a different kind than attempting to storm a heavily fortified city. (I also think, while I substantially disagree with many of his assessments, Modern Bourbon Democrat is obviously correct that the conditions of 21st-century warfare are such that the defenders' advantage has grown substantially.)
 

Your argument has the flaw that United States because friends with Japan and Germany after the war. That simply isn't going to happen in Gaza. We did that because we were rational self-interested people. The people of Gaza aren't ever going to blame anyone other than Israel for destroying their homes. That is how human nature works. Employment in Israel was the Trojan Horse that was undermining HAMAS. HAMAS ended it, and Israel took the blame. HAMAS 1 Israel 0.

It would absolutely be possible to occupy Gaza, install an explicit Collaborationist Party government (and not the PA; a government which installs an education system saying that the IDF victory was good) which is dependent on Israeli backup to remain in power, and then leave them there for a few decades. By the conclusion of that time period those who have done well under Collaborationist rule, and the particularly credulous who have grown up in that education system, will be sufficiently set in their ways that even if there is a shift away from that government there will not be a societal consensus in favor of attacking Israel. Also, those most opposed to Collaborationist rule will gradually leave, and the Collaborationists can keep hanging people who oppose them.

Source: the Eastern Bloc was a thing that existed. This is also basically what the Syngman Rhee regime in South Korea was, in my understanding.

BigSkyBob is a notorious troll; just put him on ignore.  

And yet, he's not the one who has accused me of supporting slavery.

What does one thing have to do with another?

I just find it interesting the standards being applied here.

Someone raising points that should probably be considered=troll.

Someone who repeatedly accuses another poster of supporting slavery=not a troll.

I don’t waste my time on BigSkyBob posts and haven’t for years.  He’s a troll who shows up during election years to try and start flame wars.


As for Vosem, I have hardly even commented on (much less, expressed support for) Vosem’s position.  This isn’t the gotcha you seem to think it is.  Also, I have already told you that I thought if everything was as you claim then Vosem’s accusation against you was unacceptable so spare me the bad-faith whining about imaginary hypocrisy.

[Zinneke]

Vosem, please look up the definitions of plurality and landslide

The plurality of that age demographic don't care about the issue

Wilders did not win a landslide, and it cannot be attributed solely on this issue

[Open Source Intelligence]

So...no. I think the international situation is getting better for Israel virtually across the board. My prediction prior to 10/7 was that in a few decades an international coalition would invade Gaza and depose the government there; I still think that for the next ~20 years the outlook is Israel continuing to get diplomatically stronger pretty much everywhere.

You're ignoring reality. Look at the UN Resolution votes. They've completely failed at "diplomacy" here. Yes, it's the UN and the UN is largely meaningless but how can you take a vote on a Palestinian state shall exist where no one beyond the Americans and a couple of our vassal states supported the Israeli position as a sign of diplomatic strength?

Past that is difficult to tell, but the main thing militating in favor of it being fine indefinitely is actually just demographics: if every other country begins aging and dying off as Israel continues to grow, then it will become stronger relative to other countries quite rapidly.

The average age of the Gaza resident pre-war was 18. Every 11-year-old boy Israel just destroyed their home and neighbors' homes. That's not a recipe for future peace unless you kill the 11-year-old boys or sterilize all the girls so they can't produce more children. Which Israel are not doing.

There's nothing in this conflict occurring that is going to prevent future war and sustains peace for Israel in the medium-to-long-term future. World War I was a failure for France and the UK because if it was a success, they wouldn't have had World War II occur a generation later. The point of war is to provide lasting resolution to sustained problems and conflicts. There's nothing Israel are removing or destroying that can't be replaced in a couple years' time talking about Hamas' military capacity. Equipment can be purchased by outside interests and sent in. That's effectively what the whole Syrian War was. Are Israel planning on declaring war against the Saudis and Emiratis? On a personnel side, the Palestinians have the birthrate and social conditions to create more militants when the kids now age into it.

[BigSkyBob]

I don’t waste my time on BigSkyBob posts and haven’t for years.  He’s a troll who shows up during election years to try and start flame wars.

Your statement is factually inaccurate on many levels. I post about things that interest me. Among those are redistricting, elections, Ukraine, and, recently, the war in the Gaza Strip.  Obviously, elections have a positive correlation to election years, but, redistricting has a negative correlation to election years. As to your speculations about my motives, I will merely state they have no correlation to objective reality. They are fantasy constructs within your mind. I'm here to further my position like everyone else here. It is my intellectual position that the Left uses debate tactics of showing intellectual disdain, and such to argue their case not by substance, but, rather, style, and the appropriate response is to push back hard against those tactics. Such tactics are wrong, and when exposed should be renounced and amends made, but, empirically the typical Leftist will double down. This requires a further response. It can be tedious, but it is a fight that is necessary.

I cannot escape the conclusion that in claiming you do not "waste time" reading my posts you believe that other people here are not wasting their time when they read your posts. What a convenient and self-serving opinion! If you are going to state my positions are without merit, it would behoove you to state what my positions expressed here are and were. I mean, if you don't even know what my positions are why are you passing judgment on them?

On Gaza I have expressed the opinion that one should oppose HAMAS, because they have acted against the interests of their own people, and, Israel because they are trying to use 10/7 as an excuse to depopulate Gaza: a tactic recognized since the Germanization of parts of Poland as a crime against humanity. I have noted the war by Israel isn't a war against HAMAS, which they could have won trivially, but the physical infrastructure of Gaza, which they are systematically destroying [even though it makes no military sense since rubble creates ambush positions.]

Pray tell why are these positions without merit?

[Lief 🗽]

Big news. Thank you President Biden! UNRWA is a disgusting organization that should not receive a cent from the United States (or any country that values life and peace).
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1750899738205937760?s=46&t=o2RmfeV...

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israel fought multiple wars before American aid and won them fairly easily. Today its economy relative to that of its opponents is much larger.

Yeah, back in 1967. Lately the record hasn't been so great; a pyrrhic victory in Lebanon 1982, a clear defeat followed by a full retreat from South Lebanon against Hezbollah in 2000 and then another defeat to Hezbollah in 2006. Israel's economy has grown but the quality of its military has degraded.

No; recent history disproves you. There was no intifada from 1967-1988, and there hasn't been an insurgency in the West Bank from 2005 to the present. Palestinian rebellions have been easy to suppress (check out how one such suppression is going right now). Religion is no substitute for courage.

When the militarily inept PLO was in charge there was no intifada. Then the Israelis had the brilliant idea to invade Lebanon to destroy the PLO and they basically succeeded. The vacuum was filled by Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Palestine, organizations specialized in violence and fighting the IDF. This led to two intifadas, each more deadly for Israelis than the last. The suppression of the current one increasingly resembles the campaigns in South Lebanon that failed to defeat Hezbollah and even Gadi Eisenkot is calling for a ceasefire on unfavourable terms.

The real lesson here isn't "Palestinian rebellions are easy to suppress" but that Israel's shortsighted use of indiscriminate violence has created its very worst enemies where previously none existed, kind of like how anti-bacterial soap creates superbugs. The Lebanese Shia of southern Lebanon had no grudge against the Israelis but the indignities of Israeli occupation created Hezbollah, the most successful enemy they've ever faced. They're well on track to do the exact same thing in Palestine with Hamas, who went from having a single rusty gun to inflicting more casualties on Israel than they suffered during the entire Six Day War.

If Israel made basic concessions to the PA, cracked down on settlers and made it clear that collaboration was profitable then Hamas would rapidly lose cache among Palestinians. It's not like they're popular for their wise and efficient governance of Gaza. Instead Israel repeatedly humiliates the PA, lets the settlers do whatever they want, regularly sends troops into zones supposedly governed by the PA and just generally makes them look useless and pathetic.

The only reason these organizations have any power and influence is precisely because Israel always chooses violence. It's weird that you keep bringing up the aftermath of WW2 because there's one thing that happened after WW2 that never happened after any of the intifadas: Germany and Japan were flooded with money, living standards drastically increased and soon after they were given full (well, as full as anyone else in the Warsaw Pact in the case of the DDR) self government. They weren't just stomped into the dirt over and over again.

[CumbrianLefty]

Wilders did not win a landslide, and it cannot be attributed solely on this issue

Maybe not even mainly?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

If Israel hates the UNRWA so much then it needs to take on its responsibilities likewise, without discrimination and in a way the locals can actually trust. The beleaguered civilians of Gaza, who have been shot in their churches, bombed to death, and casually mistreated by the Israeli military, deserve nothing less.

[Wiswylfen]

Do you remember how much you admired the rapists and child kidnappers from Hamas on October 7.

You were calling them freedom fighters and cheering them on with glee.

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

You justify genocide

That's far worse than anything i've ever done. Period. And i've explainded/apologized/defended for that comment a million time. Perhaps the forum should start calling people out who get away with condoning genocide. Y'all have more blood on your hands than I have and take pride in the killing of muslims, like some kind of trophy.

Meclazine's statements and conduct in general aside, I don't know how you can 'explain' or 'defend' that comment.

[BigSkyBob]

  (Also, as I pointed out to pppolitics, there's a selection effect wherein anti-Zionists die younger because they tend to physical and mental weakness).

Do you have any idea how unhinged you sound? Personally, I am reduced to a sense of dread and loathing that some day when the centurion vote will skew towards Zionist vegetarians. Oh the humanity!

Israel fought multiple wars before American aid and won them fairly easily. Today its economy relative to that of its opponents is much larger.

Israel benefitted from a one-time wave of Russia's technological elite who could not escape to the West, but could leave for Israel by claiming to be "Jewish," though most were ethnic Russian, and all culturally Russian. The ethnic Russians who prop it up will have children who regress towards the Russian mean. Enjoy your silicon valley in the sand while it lasts.

That America got tired of fighting in Vietnam and Afghanistan is not super applicable to the Israeli case, because the Taliban were supplied through a Pakistani border the US could not control, and the Vietcong was supplied through a Cambodian border the US could not control, but Gaza's border with Egypt is easy to control, as is the West Bank's border with Jordan, which is like 90% Jewish settlements.

And, again, you shift the goalposts. You made a claim that against the stronger opponent the weaker party must stop fighting at some point.  That simply wasn't true in Afghanstan or Vietnam. Had we decided to stay in Afghanstan fifty years we would have been fighting the Taliban all fifty years in all probability. And, the same is probably true of a hundred years. HAMAS wants to fight indefinitely, and, thanks to Bibi playing into their hands, has a radicalized population that will follow for the indefinite future.

Lastly, all of this ignores that the Israelis have the higher fertility rate and will gradually become more numerically superior, even if you ignore the constant Palestinian emigration and continuing Jewish in-migration.

Maybe, some day 4 million Palestinians will hate twenty million Israelis. So what? SSDD.

[super6646]

Big news. Thank you President Biden! UNRWA is a disgusting organization that should not receive a cent from the United States (or any country that values life and peace).
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1750899738205937760?s=46&t=o2RmfeV...

"The UN has no institutional bias against Israel" -The UN


Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! What a joke.

[Zinneke]

Wilders did not win a landslide, and it cannot be attributed solely on this issue

Maybe not even mainly?

I think it was a pretty salient issue and Dutch electorates have reacted to such things in the past (Rutte-Turkey controversy).

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Do you remember how much you admired the rapists and child kidnappers from Hamas on October 7.

You were calling them freedom fighters and cheering them on with glee.

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

You justify genocide

That's far worse than anything i've ever done. Period. And i've explainded/apologized/defended for that comment a million time. Perhaps the forum should start calling people out who get away with condoning genocide. Y'all have more blood on your hands than I have and take pride in the killing of muslims, like some kind of trophy.

Meclazine's statements and conduct in general aside, I don't know how you can 'explain' or 'defend' that comment.

If your country is illegally occupied, why should one not resist and fight back?

I mean "the occupied" is being framed as the terrorist. This is similar to the nazis occupying foreign countries as well.

[Silent Hunter]

If your country is illegally occupied, why should one not resist and fight back?

I mean "the occupied" is being framed as the terrorist. This is similar to the nazis occupying foreign countries as well.

Indeed, your country's "francs-tireurs" in both World Wars is the reason why insurgents are eligible for POW status in certain circumstances.

[GeneralMacArthur]

"The occupied" are not being "framed" as terrorists.  They are terrorists.  They are committing acts of terror right now as we speak by launching rockets into Israel, not as part of any military objective, but merely as part of a campaign to maim or kill as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible.  10/7 was an act of terror.  The two intifadas were full-on campaigns of terror.  Various bombings and killings committed enthusiastically and to great applause by the Palestinian fighters trivially meet the widely-accepted definitions of acts of terror.

The standard that leftists apply to this makes no sense.  So if someone merely considers their own cause to be just, then their acts of terror can not be labeled as such?  This exact same thinking could be used to argue that 9/11 was not a terrorist attack.  It makes sense that this is the thinking though given that this exact same thought process has been used by leftists time and time again over the last decade to justify domestic violence ranging from highway/airport blockades to property destruction, looting, arson, even the murders at CHAZ.  We committed these violent crimes for what we believed to be a good cause therefore everyone is obligated to respect them and no one is permitted to call them what they so obviously are.

Terrorism is terrorism.  You may say that it is terrorism in service of a good cause -- the French Resistance, Irgun, and Sons of Liberty are all celebrated by mainstream parties of their respective countries today -- but what you can not do is try and recraft a definition simply to avoid having to apply it to a group you celebrate.  Hamas committed an act of terrorism by wantonly slaughtering 1200 innocent Jews -- almost all civilians -- on October 7, 2023, followed by the kidnapping, rape, torture, and in many cases delayed murder of about 300 more.  If you think that was justified in the name of the liberation of Palestine from the "oppressors" then have the balls to say so.  Own it.