Israel-Gaza war

[GP270watch]

 Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

[GP270watch]

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

   Your words are hollow, short sighted, and stupid. Only peace insures survival. War is what causes the greatest destruction to all people, including the Jewish people.

[Vosem]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

My experience is that it is very much these people questioning their own identities -- at least in my own life, people uncomfortable with Zionism tend to drift away from identification as Jewish, while converts tend to be strongly attracted by Zionism.

Anyway, it is perfectly understandable that people who think that a war being fought to defend the entire world should stop would be on the receiving end of "hatred". The reason I don't hate them is that I've spent too long discussing politics on the Internet and am no longer ever surprised by the depths of human ignorance or depravity.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

And dismissing any and all opposition to Israel's current actions as nothing but anti-Semitism just shuts the argument down and paints even mild critics like me as evil Hitler wannabes. We've already had one person accuse me of supporting slavery on here for expressing concern about civilians, despite knowing what I've said about my own family history.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

I'm not! I wasn't talking to you here! I was responding to someone who invoked the "genocide" blood libel about Israel, which is definitely not mild criticism of Israel and is definitely antisemitism.

Really, at the core of this is that Israel simply cannot live with Hamas on its border anymore. That's non-negotiable, and that's Hamas' doing.

[GoTfan]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

I'm not! I wasn't talking to you here! I was responding to someone who invoked the "genocide" blood libel about Israel, which is definitely not mild criticism of Israel and is definitely antisemitism.

Really, at the core of this is that Israel simply cannot live with Hamas on its border anymore. That's non-negotiable, and that's Hamas' doing.

I agree with that much; Hamas is a violent terrorist group that can and should be eradicated from the planet. My concern is and always has been for the people caught in the crossfire. i fervently believe that not every single Gazan is supportive of Hamas, just as not every single German was supportive of the Nazis.

Do I think that Hamas ought to be wiped out? Yes. Do I think that Israel has a right to exist as both a sovereign nation and home for the Jewish people? Yes. Do I also happen to think that some members of the current government and IDF support a form of collective punishment for all of Gaza? Yes.

Do I also think that all Israelis support the current government? Hell no. The protests against Bibi's attempt to make the courts a branch of the government make it clear that they don't. I don't doubt that my politics would be vastly different if I live there and honestly, I can see why Israelis have a lot contempt for my left-wing brethren at times. My concerns are for the civilian population of Gaza, which I find it difficult to believe are all Hamas supporters.

And I now realise I've probably just ticked off everyone in this debate.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

[GeneralMacArthur]

The most viral post on Twitter yesterday was a tweet by a podcaster from London who shared a video of some tiny little cartridges that said "Mine Fuse" on them and said he heard from "his local sources" that the IDF was intentionally planting these in schools disguised as food, and that children were opening them and getting blown up.

Literally none of any of this makes any sense.  It's absurd if you think about it for five seconds.  Every aspect of it is a ridiculous, obvious lie.  Yet it got shared tens of thousands of times and went red-hot viral.

This is the kind of thing that's poisoning people's brains.  They see this stuff and think Israel is a bunch of monsters.  Even if they don't fully buy into each individual example, there's tremendous volume of this kind of BS, so that just the sheer deluge creates the impression of "where there's smoke there's fire".

When I see things happen like, those "Genocide Joe" protesters who interrupted Biden's speech yesterday, this is what I think of.  Because you have to realize that those people probably got radicalized by this kind of thing.  They saw a fake news tweet that said Israel is intentionally slaughtering schoolchildren by hiding bombs disguised as food, believed it uncritically, then believed that Joe Biden is supporting this, and that's the worldview that led them to go disrupt Biden's speech.  You can't reason with people like this because their worldview is fundamentally fake, their brains are just broken and incapable of critical thought.  This is what social media is doing to us.

[GoTfan]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

So we've had one person accuse me of supporting slavery, now we've got you accusing me of being a Hamas supporter.

Jesus Christ. What would be enough for you, Gmac? Me saying I don't care about dead people?

[Dr. MB]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

It's never made sense of me why apparently the only answer to war crimes is more war crimes. I don't think the abstract goal of "destroying Hamas" is worth Israel blowing up most of Gaza.

[GP270watch]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

So moderate criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?

Don't accuse me of something you know damn well I'm not.

I'm not! I wasn't talking to you here! I was responding to someone who invoked the "genocide" blood libel about Israel, which is definitely not mild criticism of Israel and is definitely antisemitism.

Really, at the core of this is that Israel simply cannot live with Hamas on its border anymore. That's non-negotiable, and that's Hamas' doing.

 You have Israeli politicians saying they want to wipe Gaza off the map(even with nukes), you can try to sling mud and name-call but facts are facts.

[Pres Mike]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

You can blame both Hamas and Israel for civilian casualties. And its not anti-semitic to hold Israel, a western liberal democracy that the US provides billions for their defense, to a much higher standard.

[Vosem]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

It's never made sense of me why apparently the only answer to war crimes is more war crimes. I don't think the abstract goal of "destroying Hamas" is worth Israel blowing up most of Gaza.

Why do people keep insisting that "destroying Hamas" is an abstract goal? It's absolutely possible to destroy a political party by seizing their assets and arresting their leadership and cadres. I understand that Hamas has lots of fellow travelers in Gaza, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible to identify and punish these individuals. One could imagine an occupation authority evaluating everyone and separating them into five categories:

1. Major Offenders - Hauptschuldige

2. Offenders: Activists, Militants, or Profiteers - Belastete

3. Minor Offenders - Minderbelastete

4. Followers - Mitläufer

5. Exonerated Persons - Entlastete

This would come with a sliding scale of punishments, with individuals involved in planning or carrying out attacks on the IDF (or civilians, including Palestinian ones) hanged as common criminals, and then lesser penalties for lesser offenses like merely supporting Hamas rule in the abstract. Ultimately you can create a society where it is dangerous not to have proof that you are an exonerated person and pose no threat to Zionism.

The just outcome of this war is the creation of a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism; then a Doha, and then a Manhattan. In practice, I suspect that a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism won't be created until a Manhattan is first, once a Republican Administration defunds UN refugee agencies and "humanitarian" efforts, and friendly jury in Florida bankrupts the New York Times.

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

You can blame both Hamas and Israel for civilian casualties. And its not anti-semitic to hold Israel, a western liberal democracy that the US provides billions for their defense, to a much higher standard.

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

[BigSkyBob]

Give it a rest, even many Jewish people are increasingly speaking out against these brutal war crimes and receiving hatred and even having their identity questioned for not supporting this lunatic right-wing government of Israel.

A few hundred kids trying to piss off their parents by advocating for their own extermination are not a social movement. Regardless, they are still irrelevant. Hamas and the ensuing carefully coordinated global wave of violent Judenhass has awakened every bit of collective trauma from Jewish history. The world is now finding out what we actually meant when we said "Never Again". Pay attention.

That sounds like a threat, to be honest.

I don't have the power to execute any threats on this issue! But Israel definitely wants this attitude to be seen as a threat to any who would escalate this conflict beyond the Israel-Hamas one it is right now, yes.

Your threat is rather vague.

I will point out that soon after the war I heard three neo-conservatives making essentially the same following argument:

1) Israel is entitled to vanquish all its enemies;

2) Iran is one of those enemies;

3) Iran is a distant, more populous nation, so it can only be defeated one way;

4) Therefore, Israel is completely justified in pursuing that one way!

We all know what way that is, don't we?

[GoTfan]

The only reason I hold the West to a high standard is we are supposed to be better than the people we're fighting. Idealistic maybe, but at what amount of dead Gazans is okay? We know where Vosem stands; he's on record as saying that wiping them out is acceptable.

At what point is the line drawn?

[BigSkyBob]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

It's never made sense of me why apparently the only answer to war crimes is more war crimes. I don't think the abstract goal of "destroying Hamas" is worth Israel blowing up most of Gaza.

Why do people keep insisting that "destroying Hamas" is an abstract goal? It's absolutely possible to destroy a political party by seizing their assets and arresting their leadership and cadres. I understand that Hamas has lots of fellow travelers in Gaza, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible to identify and punish these individuals. One could imagine an occupation authority evaluating everyone and separating them into five categories:

1. Major Offenders - Hauptschuldige

2. Offenders: Activists, Militants, or Profiteers - Belastete

3. Minor Offenders - Minderbelastete

4. Followers - Mitläufer

5. Exonerated Persons - Entlastete

This would come with a sliding scale of punishments, with individuals involved in planning or carrying out attacks on the IDF (or civilians, including Palestinian ones) hanged as common criminals, and then lesser penalties for lesser offenses like merely supporting Hamas rule in the abstract. Ultimately you can create a society where it is dangerous not to have proof that you are an exonerated person and pose no threat to Zionism.

The just outcome of this war is the creation of a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism; then a Doha, and then a Manhattan. In practice, I suspect that a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism won't be created until a Manhattan is first, once a Republican Administration defunds UN refugee agencies and "humanitarian" efforts, and friendly jury in Florida bankrupts the New York Times.

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

You can blame both Hamas and Israel for civilian casualties. And its not anti-semitic to hold Israel, a western liberal democracy that the US provides billions for their defense, to a much higher standard.

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

The American taxpayer provides over three billion dollars annually directly to Israel and an equal amount its neighbors to keep the peace. Certainly, before this is over those same taxpayers will give Israel a mid- or high- 11-figure grant. Given those facts, the American people are perfectly entitled to hold Israel to our standards. It is unmitigated gall to suggest otherwise. If Israel doesn't want to be held to our standards, then it should decline politely our money.

[Pres Mike]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

[Vosem]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

By that definition, I have to assume you believe it's okay to use chemical and biological weapons. After all, why should we apply the standard there to ourselves?

[Vosem]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

By that definition, I have to assume you believe it's okay to use chemical and biological weapons. After all, why should we apply the standard there to ourselves?

No. Either it is OK for everyone to use chemical and biological weapons, or it is OK for no one. I think it is OK for no one, but that is not me holding any Western country to a higher standard than a non-Western one.

I think it is plausible that in facing a rogue state which does not adhere to these rules a Western society might be forced to break them rather than face defeat, but (thankfully) nothing of the sort has happened over the past several decades. The Israeli campaign in Gaza is not actually a departure from global norms, and (part of the way that) you can tell because people are arguing for applying higher standards than the regular ones, under which they know that the Israeli campaign passes muster.

[GoTfan]

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

How does holding ourselves (the west) to a higher standard make us "anti our selves"

Applying any rule or limitation to some but not others protects those to whom the rule is not applied and constricts those to whom the rule is applied. There must not ever be a standard which is not applied evenly, to the wealthy and the poor, the white and the black, the Jew and the Greek, the Western and the non-Western.

By that definition, I have to assume you believe it's okay to use chemical and biological weapons. After all, why should we apply the standard there to ourselves?

No. Either it is OK for everyone to use chemical and biological weapons, or it is OK for no one. I think it is OK for no one, but that is not me holding any Western country to a higher standard than a non-Western one.

I think it is plausible that in facing a rogue state which does not adhere to these rules a Western society might be forced to break them rather than face defeat, but (thankfully) nothing of the sort has happened over the past several decades. The Israeli campaign in Gaza is not actually a departure from global norms, and (part of the way that) you can tell because people are arguing for applying higher standards than the regular ones, under which they know that the Israeli campaign passes muster.

I've actually been pretty consistent in holding all Western nations to a higher standard because we.are suppose to be better than the people we're fighting.

The difference is I don't accuse people of supporting slavery or being Hamas supporters for having a different opinion to me. Oh, and I also don't believe killing everyone in Gaza is an acceptable price for destroying Hamas, just as I don't believe killing everyone in Afghanistan would be an acceptable price for wiping out the Taliban, nor do i think killing every Iranian to be acceptable price to wipe that disgusting theocracy from the planet

[Vosem]

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

It's never made sense of me why apparently the only answer to war crimes is more war crimes. I don't think the abstract goal of "destroying Hamas" is worth Israel blowing up most of Gaza.

Why do people keep insisting that "destroying Hamas" is an abstract goal? It's absolutely possible to destroy a political party by seizing their assets and arresting their leadership and cadres. I understand that Hamas has lots of fellow travelers in Gaza, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible to identify and punish these individuals. One could imagine an occupation authority evaluating everyone and separating them into five categories:

1. Major Offenders - Hauptschuldige

2. Offenders: Activists, Militants, or Profiteers - Belastete

3. Minor Offenders - Minderbelastete

4. Followers - Mitläufer

5. Exonerated Persons - Entlastete

This would come with a sliding scale of punishments, with individuals involved in planning or carrying out attacks on the IDF (or civilians, including Palestinian ones) hanged as common criminals, and then lesser penalties for lesser offenses like merely supporting Hamas rule in the abstract. Ultimately you can create a society where it is dangerous not to have proof that you are an exonerated person and pose no threat to Zionism.

The just outcome of this war is the creation of a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism; then a Doha, and then a Manhattan. In practice, I suspect that a Gaza without Palestinian liberationism won't be created until a Manhattan is first, once a Republican Administration defunds UN refugee agencies and "humanitarian" efforts, and friendly jury in Florida bankrupts the New York Times.

Once again, it is purely thanks to Hamas's violation of the Geneva convention, committing a horrendous war crime by intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, that there are so many civilian deaths.  It is not Israel's fault.  Israel would ideally like to have zero civilian casualties if that was possible.  But it's not possible, entirely thanks to Hamas.

Israel must choose between the two goals of (A) destroying Hamas, and (B) avoiding any civilian casualties.  Up until 10/7, they were going with option B.  Hamas and the world have made it clear that Israel will receive nothing but punishment in return for that decision.  So they've now switched to option A.

If you blame Israel and have no smoke for Hamas, that says an awful lot about you.  Either you're so ignorant that you simply don't understand the basics of the conflict as I've described them above, you're so anti-Semitic that you think Israeli war crimes count but Hamas's are actually fine and dandy and justified, or you're so easily taken in by social media propaganda that you think Israel is intentionally murdering civilians and committing various other horrible crimes that they're not actually committing.

You can blame both Hamas and Israel for civilian casualties. And its not anti-semitic to hold Israel, a western liberal democracy that the US provides billions for their defense, to a much higher standard.

I don't know about "anti-Semitic", necessarily, but it is unfair and bizarre to hold Israel to a higher standard than other countries; if you really do hold the West to a higher standard than the rest of the world, then this strikes me as meaningfully anti-Western, since its practical effect is just to make life easier for their enemies.

The American taxpayer provides over three billion dollars annually directly to Israel and an equal amount its neighbors to keep the peace. Certainly, before this is over those same taxpayers will give Israel a mid- or high- 11-figure grant. Given those facts, the American people are perfectly entitled to hold Israel to our standards. It is unmitigated gall to suggest otherwise. If Israel doesn't want to be held to our standards, then it should decline politely our money.

No, the American taxpayer ought to insist on Israeli standards -- which that taxpayer has repeatedly voiced support for in polling and elections -- being applied to the United States itself, as has been repeatedly advocated by pro-Israel publications in the United States.

My hope is that one of the salutary effects of an Israeli victory in this conflict would be many Western militaries adopting patterns of fighting more like the Israeli ones.