Israel-Gaza war

[GoTfan]

The Allies initially didn't believe reports of extermination camps because they simply could not believe anyone could be that inhumane.

[GoTfan]

The first international declaration that a Holocaust was occurring was made by the United Nations on December 17 1942. What the Allies could 'do' was very much tied in with the overall military response to the conflict.

They could’ve bombed the railways.  They didn’t because, to put it bluntly, they couldn’t care less about dead Jews.

F-ck sake man. Utterly crass.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but it doesn’t make it any less true.  It wouldn’t have magically solved everything, but it would’ve helped.  Then you have the immigration/asylum restrictions, the post-conviction pardons/huge reductions in the sentences of most Nazis convicted at the subsequent Nuremberg trials to appease Adenauer, the way the British government at best willfully ignored reports about aspects of the Holocaust prior to the liberation of the camps at the end of the war, etc.  Respectfully, the governments and many regular folks in the countries simply didn’t care about dead Jews.  

It’s not crass to say so even if my bluntness offended your personal sensibilities, I’m just being brutally honest.  If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl Harbor then the US never would’ve gotten involved, if Germany hadn’t attacked the USSR then the latter never would’ve gotten involved (and Stalin was a vicious anti-Semite himself), and if Germany had stopped after Czechoslovakia, then Britain and France never would’ve gotten involved (and re: France: that’s without even getting into Vichy).  Every single Jew in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia could’ve been gassed and the allied governments wouldn’t have lifted a finger.  They might’ve made disapproving statements, but little more than that.  To pretend otherwise is extremely naive at best.

Again, there is evidence saying that the Allies just didn't believe someone could be that inhumane. Not to mention the fact that the Allies really didn't bomb any camps because of the fear of killing the inhabitants. Suggesting they could have bombed the railways is simplistic at best because they simply would've found other ways to do it.

[GoTfan]

Was reading about this conflict yesterday combined with Russia-Ukraine from a geopolitical perspective and what this does to "rules-based order". Here's my amateur armchair geopolitical take on what Netanyahu's grand goal in this is:

Netanyahu has stated complete elimination of Hamas is his goal, that cannot be achieved in my opinion for the same reasons the U.S. discovered carrying out the Afghan and Iraq wars against their own asymmetrical opponents. Therefore, Netanyahu's real goal in my opinion is to keep the conflict going until November. If the war is still going in November, it's a salient issue and Biden is put into a tough spot of any hard position he takes will be opposed by people that should be voting for him. In the event of a Trump victory, a new Trump administration would probably agree to Israel setting up a buffer zone in northern Gaza manned by Israeli military a la the Golan Heights with Syria. The buffer zone would be large enough to prevent Hamas incursions into Israel via underground tunnels or tube artillery. This would be almost universally condemned everywhere else, but Israel have clearly made the calculation that as long as the U.S. has their backs, no one else matters.

The future with a Biden victory in November is less clear, but I see Biden's clear both sides-ism he's displaying currently completely disappearing once the election is over, probably to drive harder bargains with Netanyahu. However, pro-Israel post-November will still have a clear majority in Congress regardless of election results, and I think that drives some of Netanyahu's calculus in U.S. relations is he knows Biden is outvoted by Congress, could maybe even override a veto, if a near 50/50 body you only need a third of Democrats to override a potential Biden veto.

I honestly think that one of the reasons he's dragging this out is because it hurts Biden politically. Once Trump wins, he will have free licence to do what he wants, no limits.

[GoTfan]

Israeli settlers attack Gaza bound aid convoy at West Bank crossing.

This is pathetic.
You know what level of ***hole you have to be, to do something like this?

Pleasantly surprised that the Israeli government announced they had already made some arrests in this case.

Ben Gvir and Smotrich might be getting a little out of Bibi's control, which was thoroughly predictable.

The phrase 'deal with the devil' comes to mind.

[GoTfan]

US-built floating pier that will allow delivery of humanitarian aid has been anchored in Gaza

The floating pier that will allow for humanitarian aid to flow into Gaza from the sea has been anchored to a beach in Gaza, according to US Central Command (CENTCOM).

Personnel anchored the pier at about 7:40 a.m. local time, “supporting the humanitarian mission to deliver additional humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians,” CENTCOM said in a statement. The pier had traveled on Wednesday from the port of Ashdod, about 30 miles away, to the Gaza beach.

Trucks are expected to begin moving the humanitarian aid ashore in the coming days, while the United Nations will coordinate distribution within the besieged strip, CENTCOM said, adding that no US troops had entered Gaza.

The Joint Logistics Over-the-Shore (JLOTS) system consists of two parts: the floating pier where shipments will be offloaded and the causeway to transfer the shipments to the distribution point in Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/15/politics/us-gaza-pier-moving-construction/index.html

This is purely performative and won't actually help the people of Gaza.

As someone sympathetic to the campus protests, it's more than what those students have done.

[GoTfan]

Anyone who seriously uses John Bolton as an authority on foreign policy is not worth listening to. Screw that man and everything he stands for,.

[GoTfan]

The chickens are finally coming home to roost. There is only so much that Gantz is going to tolerate from here; his six point ultimatum to Netanyahu has made that clear.

[GoTfan]

The chickens are finally coming home to roost. There is only so much that Gantz is going to tolerate from here; his six point ultimatum to Netanyahu has made that clear.

I believe Gallant signed off on that ultimatum as well, although I could be misremembering

It would not surprise me.

Gantz is an ex-general. He's afraid of an open-ended commitment because he knows what happens when that happens. More than that, being part of this government is hurting his own polling numbers. June 8 is going to be a very interesting day.

[GoTfan]

Pro-Palestinians vs Pro-Gay Parade

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7uhQEURtog/

Not even going to try and explain what is going on there.

Collective punishment is the only real tactic of the militant pro-Palestinian movement now that it's clear they don't have the support of the general public. This is just an extension of that.

Didn't the Israeli president say that there were no innocent Palestinians?

There's people on both sides who support collective punishment for the other.

[GoTfan]

Global foreign affairs expert and Australia's most popular past-Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, talks about what the two state solution meant when he was the leader of our country.

Two State Solution

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7vj93QK-P9/

I don't get what he is saying. He says that no Palestinian leader supports Israel with "secure borders" and thats the biggest barrier to peace. That doesn't make sense. The biggest issues have been settlements in the West Bank, refugees returning and the status of Jerusalem. No one cares if Israel builds a wall once fair borders are set for a two state solution

No one's ever understood anything Tony Abbott's said. There's a reason his party tossed him overboard.

[GoTfan]

BBC News suggested that Israel should have warned the Palestinians they were about to conduct a hostage rescue.

Lol what is this stupidity? I'm glad that Israel is telling the collective pro-Hamas International Community to f**k off. If they can do another 30 such operations to liberate the remaining hostages then I say, go ahead.

The international community is only pro-Hamas if you decide that mild criticism of Israel's conduct is inherently pro-Hamas. That's a pretty dangerous black-and-white view to have.

[GoTfan]

Question for the pro-Palestine crowd. Who is responsible for the collateral in this operation to free the 4 hostages, Israel or Hamas?

Doesn't matter because they shouldn't have rescued the hostages anyways, don't you know? Insidious of them.

Yeah how dare people get all worked up about the fact that hundreds of Palestinians were killed in the raid to save four Israeli hostages. The lives of the latter are obviously more important, and if you disagree you’re pro-terrorist.

Their deaths were caused by Hamas flooding area with militants. I am very worked up about how potentially hundreds, but we don't know the count of civilians vs militants, of civilians died and frankly I think the people aren't going after Hamas for causing all those deaths is awful.

The thing that is disagreed on is whether Israel is at fault for the deaths. Terrorist supporters like you think they are, non-terrorists agree that Hamas is responsible for starting a giant firefight with heavy explosives and machine guns in a civilian area that caused potentially hundreds of innocent civilians and one Israeli hostage rescuer to die.

Another name for the terrorist ignore list, thanks for outing yourself.

Calling other posters are terrorists should be sanctionable behaviour.

[GoTfan]

Question for the pro-Palestine crowd. Who is responsible for the collateral in this operation to free the 4 hostages, Israel or Hamas?

Doesn't matter because they shouldn't have rescued the hostages anyways, don't you know? Insidious of them.

Yeah how dare people get all worked up about the fact that hundreds of Palestinians were killed in the raid to save four Israeli hostages. The lives of the latter are obviously more important, and if you disagree you’re pro-terrorist.

Their deaths were caused by Hamas flooding area with militants. I am very worked up about how potentially hundreds, but we don't know the count of civilians vs militants, of civilians died and frankly I think the people aren't going after Hamas for causing all those deaths is awful.

The thing that is disagreed on is whether Israel is at fault for the deaths. Terrorist supporters like you think they are, non-terrorists agree that Hamas is responsible for starting a giant firefight with heavy explosives and machine guns in a civilian area that caused potentially hundreds of innocent civilians and one Israeli hostage rescuer to die.

Another name for the terrorist ignore list, thanks for outing yourself.

Calling other posters are terrorists should be sanctionable behaviour.

Terrorist supporters. And the claim stands up. The problem for the mods is that if they ban for that they'd have to ban many of those terrorist supporters from the obvious implications of their claims about the anti-Hamas side. Although I know forum moderators in some places are very happy to play a game where obvious implications are allowed but clear statements are not allowed. No idea how the mods here fall.

I accept any moderation decision because saying that Israel and not Hamas is responsible for the deaths in this specific incident, the hostage rescue, does in fact make someone a terrorist supporter.

Some people on the pro-Hamas side have even gone so far as to say that Oct 7th was justified resistance. I'm not super motivated to go back and see if anyone here said that, but given their current comments I suspect prudence is the only thing holding some people back.

And I happen to think that's low behaviour, but labelling someone a terrorist supporter-without evidence and just because they expressed some concern for civilian lives-is just as low. You don't get to label people as terrorist supporters because they express a different view from you; the mods have been ruthless on this in the past.

[GoTfan]

To bring everyone back to the topic, what effect does Gantz leaving actually have on this at all? The cynic in me says minimal if any.

[GoTfan]

Gantz leaving the coalition has no impact because Hamas won't agree to a deal. If Hamas had any sort of reasonable demands for a deal then Bibi's coalition would easily lose the votes it needs to stay in power. But sadly because Hamas is so intransigent there's basically nothing people pushing for peace can do. That's what happens when you murder and rape hundreds of Israelis who are often peace activists and then make ridiculous demands. The anti-peace groups simply point and laugh at people asking for a ceasefire.

Hamas demand is for Israel to end the war in return for release of the hostages.

Netanyahu said no.

I didn't ask for either of you to spout off.

Can someone more rational talk about this?

[GoTfan]

Gantz leaving the coalition has no impact because Hamas won't agree to a deal. If Hamas had any sort of reasonable demands for a deal then Bibi's coalition would easily lose the votes it needs to stay in power. But sadly because Hamas is so intransigent there's basically nothing people pushing for peace can do. That's what happens when you murder and rape hundreds of Israelis who are often peace activists and then make ridiculous demands. The anti-peace groups simply point and laugh at people asking for a ceasefire.

Hamas demand is for Israel to end the war in return for release of the hostages.

Netanyahu said no.

I didn't ask for either of you to spout off.

Can someone more rational talk about this?

The basic building blocks haven't changed too much. There's not enough common ground yet for things to really conclude.

pppolitics actually had it right. Hamas will accept nothing but an abject surrender from Israel, thousands of prisoners, ranging from probably innocent to hardened terrorists, full withdrawal of Israel from every part of the Strip, and tons more money for them to rebuild their military. Meanwhile what Israel gets is maybe 70 live hostages, a bunch of corpses, and a promise to let Hamas join a Palestinian government which will be heavily armed and bring Hamas to the West Bank.

Bibi's not the only one who would say no to that.

You just can't stop, can you? Onto ignore you go.

[GoTfan]

To bring everyone back to the topic, what effect does Gantz leaving actually have on this at all? The cynic in me says minimal if any.

Unfortunately minimal - Gantz isn't part of Netanyahu's initial coalition, so his leaving doesn't threaten it. But Gallant, who is part of Netanyahu's original team, seems to be getting tired of him as well and that could be more significant. Quite a few centrist Jewish/Israeli pundits I follow, like Shael Ben-Ephraim, think new elections could be more likely than they were a few days ago.

One can only hope that Gallant is at the end of his rope regarding the wannabe dictator's shtick.

[GoTfan]

Hamas has rejected the US proposal for hostages and a truce. Remember this was a deal that some people here said wasn't even acceptable to Israel. But Hamas returned a response with massive changes.

That's that for peace I guess. Even a deal the US would have to force down Israel's throat, according to some posters here, could never be good enough for our Hamas heroes.

Meanwhile leaked messages from Sinwar to other Hamas leaders specify that the plan is to get another 100k Palestinians killed, through military conflict or famine, whatever works to kill a whole bunch, especially the women and the children, so that everyone abandons Israel. But they are prepared to hold current hostages as long as Shalit if that is what it takes to free Sinwar's favorite murderous terrorist prison buddies from Israeli detention. Hopefully like Sinwar they all get their brain tumors fixed prior to release.

I'm sure they're also hoping for mass killings of Jews in the diaspora at the hands of their amen corner in the west. I hope Israel is quietly stationing a few well-trained agents in hotspots ready to strike if violence begins.

This is just endorsing violent military action on foreign soil, and just a smidge short of endorsing people's deaths.