Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[Zinneke]

Roemer votes no to the proposition of taking in more refugees. Interesting.

[Zinneke]

Yeah, Roemer is being hypocritical by voting "no" and gets away with it due to Wilders' absence. He knows it too. Strategically smart, though.

Frits Wester, the moderator, is clearly biased against Roemer, by the way.

Wester used to work for the CDA. He probably still is a CDA member.

Big if true. How is that allowed btw.

Pechtold on top form tonight. Him and Bruma the big winners for me, but then their competitor, Rutte, is away so they had to be.
 
Roemer may have restarted to SP campaign. Asscher is just a suit with some good lines. Asscher looked nervous, will not be seen as PM material which is unfortunate.

[Zinneke]

Preferred coalition of Klaver: CDA-PvdA-D66-GL-SP. Buma doesn't want to state his preference, wants a "centrist government", states the CDA is a centrist party. Again restates CDA-PvdA-D66-GL-SP is not going to happen. Pechtold also doesn't want to make a choice.

I didn't catch Roemer's line about drugs and the CDA?

[Zinneke]

@Rogier: Hmmm, me neither.

Asscher sounds super scripted. Robot Rubio returns.

He reminds me of this guy



Also, he totally wasted his personal debate on Bruma. It was so confusing it was hilarious. I genuinely think he puffed up before the debate.

[Zinneke]

Thank god Dutch people are smart enough not to be fooled twice into the two-horse race logic.

''Look at me, I *won* with 20% of the seats'' - Rutte/Wilders on election day.

[Zinneke]

PVV were relied upon while being outside of government before and they still managed to piss off their partners. The CDA especially suffered (PvdA benefiting) along with traditionally the one who collapses the coalition, hence PVV also collapsing. So I think the Left would be mad not to call Rutte's bluff if he tries to say that he needs the PVV votes to govern. The Left parties know that the VVD will look silly if they ally with PVV*, and as demonstrated by Klaver's stumble, any hint that a Left party wants to ally with Rutte is electoral suicide. What Rutte could do in a different context is ask Wilders to leave the party in a scalping move to tempt the Left but WIlders owns the party so it will never happen.
 

I'm not tempted to watch this week-ends debate with Goldielocks involved because you just know that every single party leader will want to call him up for the 1 vs 1 (it'd be funny if Asscher does it first though). Maybe a few of the left-wing parties will be smart and call up Rutte to play to their core.


*MR sold their coalition with the N-VA well here - after saying several times they would not allow it -  by black balling any state reform policy from the nationalists. Rutte doesn't have the leeway to restrict certain PVV policies over others since he has said he is against their economic program first and foremost, then the fact that PVV are divisive nativists. His rank and file are of the same opinion.

[Zinneke]

They don't have a majority in the senate though. D66 obviously isn't going to work with them just like the left-wing parties and I think the SJW-wing in CU is too big for CU to work with the PVV. That leaves only 50PLUS, and I think they would rather just sit at the sidelines than compromise and actually achieve anything

How does CU who is pro-life have a SJW-wing?

Ask themselves what would Jesus do I imagine.

An interesting interview with Sybrand Buma in Vrij Nederland for those who understand Dutch.

Does he know people from Leuwaarden do not consider themselves Fryske?

 

Also, complaining about Rutte saying no more cents do the Greeks when the CDA actually voted against the bailout for purely populistic reasons (when we know they would have voted for in government.

CDA are the kind of party that talk a lot but never say anything remotely worthwile, thankfully the Tsjeven on both sides of the border will peter out soon.

[Zinneke]

They don't have a majority in the senate though. D66 obviously isn't going to work with them just like the left-wing parties and I think the SJW-wing in CU is too big for CU to work with the PVV. That leaves only 50PLUS, and I think they would rather just sit at the sidelines than compromise and actually achieve anything

How does CU who is pro-life have a SJW-wing?

The Christian hipsters. Socially conservative, but fairly left-wing on issues like climate change, economics and refugees. SJW probably isn't the right word for it, but those people don't want to work with the PVV.

Oh too bad, i was thinking that they are maybe the best party and that they can work with PVV. Socially conservative and left wing economics sounds good, but climate change and refugees are probably the reason they are small party.

Beter zwijgen als ge niets over weet

[Zinneke]

how realistic is cda-vvd minority gov with support of pvv, and buma as prime minister?

It won't happen again because of precedence.

Nor will any D66-religious party combo work because the religious parties really care about imposing their social agenda above everything else.

[Zinneke]

Sadly can't watch it because all the links are not working for me, but listening at it and Krol is getting insane amounts of applause? Is the Carré some kind of retirement home.

[Zinneke]

http://www.1limburg.nl/den-haag-doet-te-weinig-voor-limburg?context=topstory

http://atlanticsentinel.com/2017/02/nativist-freedom-party-draws-support-from-dutch-periphery/

Interesting article about how the centre-periphery debate rages on in the Netherlands, despite it being a small, unitary country. Limburg in particular was known for representing the fairly simple political divide between rural CDA catholics, and urban industrial PvdA. Brabant and Groningen were in similar situations, but with the added factor of their own communist parties (I forget whether it was the CPN that always used to get insane results in parts of the North even when SP started to monopolise the far left).

Now these regions and especially their industrial rust belts, have a clear trend towards the anti-EU parties (PVV and SP), but which helped also by a decreasing population due to a much more flexible labour market than in Belgium for example. This leaves the have-nots behind, who inevitably vote for the anti-globalist parties.

It will be interesting to see as I mentioned previously whether they also vote for local candidates more that the other richer regions. Limburg and Friesland also have strong regional identities, followed by Groningen (mainly concerned with preserving their gas) and North Brabant. Here is an album made by a redditor I think of where the candidates are from in each party. VVD, GL D66 and PvdA in that order have reputations of being Holland-centric.

http://imgur.com/a/Mo4I0

(does this forum still discriminate against imgur links?

[Zinneke]

I really want Ancilla to win a seat. I think I'd accept a large PVV over-performance if it meant Ancilla got a seat.

I could see Pirates benefiting off GroenLinks deflation, actually, so hopefully that's what's going on

Well, if we're going for massive conjectural thought i'd say the Pirates, like DavidB has already alluded to, benefit mainly from protest voters of PvdD who are looking for a cokie anti-establishment left-cultural party with a worthwile policy movement. I for one always had a preference for the Party of the Future (http://www.pvdt.nl/ - you will be able to tell their seriousness by the images).

But yeah Ancilla needs a seat. Not that you can't have eye candy in larger parties in the Lowlands...

[Zinneke]

Baudet tonight stated that "our elite is homeopathically mixing us with all other peoples so that there will never be a Dutchman anymore", which has sparked some Twitter outrage.

Which is a rather interesting thing to say for someone named Thierry Baudet, so I guess I am missing some context.

Is Baudet of Belgian elite origin ?


He's in the headlines, that's all that matters. He can then moderate his stance like above for people to say "well yeah he has a point". Wilders was effective at this until the mask he wore
, to attract the initial attention, essentially became his manifesto. That's the danger. The PVV manifesto c. 2010-2012 wasn't that bad.

I think the FvD will get 2 seats.

[Zinneke]

Baudet tonight stated that "our elite is homeopathically mixing us with all other peoples so that there will never be a Dutchman anymore", which has sparked some Twitter outrage.

Which is a rather interesting thing to say for someone named Thierry Baudet, so I guess I am missing some context.

Is Baudet of Belgian elite origin ?

If a maths teacher from Braine-le-Comte / 's-Gravenbrakel in Hainaut, on the run for Napoleonic conscription, is elite then yes.

Don't forget that any French speaker for Flamingant is the elite.

https://qz.com/928684/the-dutch-far-rights-election-donors-are-almost-exclusively-american/

Meanwhile, DavidB insists Wilders isn't a shill for the neo-cons he has courted in Washington. But national sovereignty lol.

[Zinneke]

so...this guy is trying to out-culturalist wilders? not sure there is such a big constituency for that message, as long as wilders isn't going down in flames.

It's a party that has as an electoral base far-rightwinger college edicated. Not a chance they gain momentum.

No chance a college educated right-populist party gains momentum? I mean look at how successful Pim Fortuyn was. Or Van Grieken is here in Flanders? The working class far right don't seem to care about the social background or grassroots origins of their candidates.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Can you please explain the conspiracy view to me?

The George Soros conspiracy? The idea that one Jewish donor effectively controlled the entire Democratic Party and Clinton Campaign, when there were plenty of other sketchy donors (although not as bad as Wilders's)? There was underlying anti-semitism about the whole thing.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

He is not just supporting Israel. I support the existence of Israel. Loads of other people support the existence of Israel. That isn't the be all and end all of neo-conservative policy.

Wilders though has tied himself to a faction of the American far right that supports the current far-right wing of the Israeli government. His entire campaign is run on foreign money, but he claims he wants to re-establish Dutch sovereignty.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

He hasn't "adopted" anything. He has always been pro-Israel within the VVD, which is a pro-Israel party too. When he established his own party, he could obviously place emphasis on his own views since he didn't have to toe the VVD party line anymore. Pro-Israelism is not a token stance in the PVV; it is deeply interwoven in the party culture. Wilders has lived in Israel. There is no evidence that he takes pro-Israel positions because of the money. None. You don't get to use dogwhistles about (((neocons))) and (((money))) and act all surprised when called out on it. Also, it is you who came up with all this stuff about Horowitz, just like it is you who in the past came up with the double loyalty canard toward me.

There is ample evidence that George Soros funds Israeli and Hungarian opposition parties. Do you want me to come up with it? No problem. Criticizing George Soros is not inherently antisemitic even if a lot of antisemites do it. I have the impression you would use this same line of reasoning on another subject.

George Soros has been funding people left right and center for years. He only came to prominence when the anti-Semites of the alt-right suddenly started looking for "Jewish money".

He is Hungarian and he is Jewish, so, according to your stance, he should allowed to intervene in both his countries politics no?

I'd rather nobody's capital intervened in campaigns at all btw.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is neocon policy but it is not solely neocon, which is exactly why it seems to me that Rogier uses the word neocon as a synonym for Jew.[/quote]

When did I ever mention anything about Jews? When did I insinuate neo-conservatism suddenly become solely about Israel and the Jews?
Is this obsession with Israel some kind of reverse Godwin's Law you bring to every thread to feed your victim complex?

Wilders being backed by foreign capital while claiming he is victim of a liberal, foreign conspiracy is related to Dutch politics, as far as I can tell. Well done on de-reailing the thread though.

[Zinneke]

Derailing my own thread where I frequently make effortposts while you get your facts wrong? Woo, okay!

Derailing subjects you conveniently decide to ignore seems more like your kind of game.

[Zinneke]

Here is a fact :

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016Z22739&did=2016D46550

[Zinneke]

Here is a fact :

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016Z22739&did=2016D46550

Okay? And?

THe hysteria you posted about DENK, when it was one of their members who proposed a law to ban foreign funding of Dutch political parties.

Parties who voted against the law:

PVV
VVD
CDA
CU
SGP

Surprise, surprise, bar the CDA they are Atlantacist and on conservative America´s good books.
Meanwhile, Wilders camps outside the Turkish embassy demanding Turks do not interfere with domestic Dutch society.

[Zinneke]

Hysteria about DENK? I don't think that word accurately describes my posts on that party, but who cares if you're trying to win a flame war, right? What's more, I don't think I have ever claimed DENK are financed from abroad (nor that this would be why they are a problematic party), so I'm unsure why this post is addressed to me. I do not oppose Dutch parties being funded from abroad. I also do not support Wilders' protest at the Turkish embassy and have voiced my disapproval of political parties' posturing on this subject in this very thread just a few days ago. A+ in strawmanning.

Its not you that's guilty of hypocrisy (even if there is a 60% chance you are going to vote for them), its the PVV.

[Zinneke]

The far-right and the far-left both use "neo-liberal" and "neo-con" as synonyms for "jewish". Which is why both extreme-frings groups are the greatest danger for all of us, for liberalism and ofc also for israel.

Neo-conservatism is a specific political movement within US politics, with certain values, of which policy towards Israel is only a fraction of them, and if so, merely an application in international policy. You can find all this in the works of Yuen Foong Khong. While Wilders himself is not a neo-con (another strawman DavidB is trying to prop up), he is at the service of this political movement, which has amongst other policies, American hegemony over Europe.

Neo-liberalism is a more contested concept, I'll admit. I associate it with VVD's idea of conservative-liberalism, that is, a liberalism that places heavy emphasis on the individual responsibility aspect of classical liberalism as an ideological tenet, and heavily criticises the idea of society (Thatcher is another example). But people have different associations of what neo-liberalism is. I have yet to hear anybody associate neo-liberalism with the Jews though.

And please, keep Israel-Palestine issue out of the Dutch election thread.

 

[Zinneke]

And please, keep Israel-Palestine issue out of the Dutch election thread.

This is the height of dishonesty, dude. You are the one who keeps doing this. You are the one coming up with the double loyalty canard and the edgy DENK parallel everytime I post something about either the PVV or DENK, and I, as opposed to you, actually contribute stuff to this thread otherwise. You need to stop.

Beter zwijgen als ge niets over weet

No, man, I'm pretty sure the first flare up of your identity that you so desperatley need to share was because we were talking about Turks who had allegiances with the AKP, which had paralells to your situation as an Israeli-Dutch dual citizen. Regardless the AKP was big issue at the time, then you turned into an issue solely about being Jewish, when that wasn't the subject. And now yet again, you have derailed another big issue in this campaign into the subject of Jewish identity, or anti-Semitism, which you seem to do on a consistent basis on this board.

And yes, you are an excellent poster otherwise, you provide good content, I am not questioning that. When Belgium comes into scrutiny maybe I can provide something like this, maybe not. But in the mean time I and the others here comment on here to add our views on the subjects at hand. If you want nobody to comment, start a blog and share it here