Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented

[windjammer]

so...this guy is trying to out-culturalist wilders? not sure there is such a big constituency for that message, as long as wilders isn't going down in flames.

It's a party that has as an electoral base far-rightwinger college edicated. Not a chance they gain momentum.

[Zinneke]

so...this guy is trying to out-culturalist wilders? not sure there is such a big constituency for that message, as long as wilders isn't going down in flames.

It's a party that has as an electoral base far-rightwinger college edicated. Not a chance they gain momentum.

No chance a college educated right-populist party gains momentum? I mean look at how successful Pim Fortuyn was. Or Van Grieken is here in Flanders? The working class far right don't seem to care about the social background or grassroots origins of their candidates.

[DavidB.]

Meanwhile, DavidB insists Wilders isn't a shill for the neo-cons he has courted in Washington. But national sovereignty lol.
[stupid picture]

No, I continue to insist that these people support Wilders because they support his views. You still haven't provided a single shred of evidence that Wilders has changed his views to court these people. The idea that Wilders is a neocon is especially lol, by the way. He is highly reluctant in supporting foreign missions, much more so than CDA and VVD. But I suppose you use the word "neocon" as a synonym for Jew.

As for the "national sovereignty lol" "argument", I wonder whether there's truly a misunderstanding here or that it's just intellectual dishonesty. The interests of Dutch nationalists are nowadays aligned with the interests of German, French, Hungarian etc. nationalists. An FN win in the French presidential election strengthens Dutch sovereignty too, perhaps in very tangible ways (no EU migrant quota?). Cooperation is necessary.

It is also hilarious how those who think everything should be global and the Dutch people should not exist (thank you, Baudet) are suddenly outraged when the financing of political parties they don't like takes place internationally too -- though of course these people won't say a thing if the Hungarian or Israeli puppet opposition parties are bankrolled by George Soros.

[SunSt0rm]

De Hond sees a four way race in his poll. GL can become greatest according to his poll, lol.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

[Dutch Conservative]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Can you please explain the conspiracy view to me?

[Lord Halifax]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Can you please explain the conspiracy view to me?

The George Soros conspiracy? The idea that one Jewish donor effectively controlled the entire Democratic Party and Clinton Campaign, when there were plenty of other sketchy donors (although not as bad as Wilders's)? There was underlying anti-semitism about the whole thing.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

Its also sweet you end your post with a conspiracy born out of an anti-Semitic agenda.

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

He is not just supporting Israel. I support the existence of Israel. Loads of other people support the existence of Israel. That isn't the be all and end all of neo-conservative policy.

Wilders though has tied himself to a faction of the American far right that supports the current far-right wing of the Israeli government. His entire campaign is run on foreign money, but he claims he wants to re-establish Dutch sovereignty.

[DavidB.]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

He hasn't "adopted" anything. He has always been pro-Israel within the VVD, which is a pro-Israel party too. When he established his own party, he could obviously place emphasis on his own views since he didn't have to toe the VVD party line anymore. Pro-Israelism is not a token stance in the PVV; it is deeply interwoven in the party culture. Wilders has lived in Israel. There is no evidence that he takes pro-Israel positions because of the money. None. You don't get to use dogwhistles about (((neocons))) and (((money))) and act all surprised when called out on it. Also, it is you who came up with all this stuff about Horowitz, just like it is you who in the past came up with the double loyalty canard toward me.

There is ample evidence that George Soros funds Israeli and Hungarian opposition parties. Do you want me to come up with it? No problem. Criticizing George Soros is not inherently antisemitic even if a lot of antisemites do it. I have the impression you would use this same line of reasoning on another subject.

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

It is neocon policy but it is not solely neocon, which is exactly why it seems to me that Rogier uses the word neocon as a synonym for Jew.

But let's get back to Dutch politics.

De Hond sees a four way race in his poll. GL can become greatest according to his poll, lol.

The numbers will probably not be right (De Hond overpolls GL, underpolls D66), but the trends will be. The story nobody talks about is that the VVD keep sliding down. Even if De Hond underpolls them, 25 or 26 seats would be a bad result.

[Zinneke]

This is not a thread on Israel elections and it is slightly tiring that you make everything about Israel/ the Jews, but yes, Wilders' outspoken support for Israeli government policy probably has something to do with the cash injection from the American far right. Its just one of the many neo-con policies Wilders has adopted since he left the VVD.

He hasn't "adopted" anything. He has always been pro-Israel within the VVD, which is a pro-Israel party too. When he established his own party, he could obviously place emphasis on his own views since he didn't have to toe the VVD party line anymore. Pro-Israelism is not a token stance in the PVV; it is deeply interwoven in the party culture. Wilders has lived in Israel. There is no evidence that he takes pro-Israel positions because of the money. None. You don't get to use dogwhistles about (((neocons))) and (((money))) and act all surprised when called out on it. Also, it is you who came up with all this stuff about Horowitz, just like it is you who in the past came up with the double loyalty canard toward me.

There is ample evidence that George Soros funds Israeli and Hungarian opposition parties. Do you want me to come up with it? No problem. Criticizing George Soros is not inherently antisemitic even if a lot of antisemites do it. I have the impression you would use this same line of reasoning on another subject.

George Soros has been funding people left right and center for years. He only came to prominence when the anti-Semites of the alt-right suddenly started looking for "Jewish money".

He is Hungarian and he is Jewish, so, according to your stance, he should allowed to intervene in both his countries politics no?

I'd rather nobody's capital intervened in campaigns at all btw.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It is neocon policy but it is not solely neocon, which is exactly why it seems to me that Rogier uses the word neocon as a synonym for Jew.[/quote]

When did I ever mention anything about Jews? When did I insinuate neo-conservatism suddenly become solely about Israel and the Jews?
Is this obsession with Israel some kind of reverse Godwin's Law you bring to every thread to feed your victim complex?

Wilders being backed by foreign capital while claiming he is victim of a liberal, foreign conspiracy is related to Dutch politics, as far as I can tell. Well done on de-reailing the thread though.

[DavidB.]

Derailing my own thread where I frequently make effortposts while you, just like in so many other threads, get your facts wrong? Woo, okay!

[Zinneke]

Derailing my own thread where I frequently make effortposts while you get your facts wrong? Woo, okay!

Derailing subjects you conveniently decide to ignore seems more like your kind of game.

[DavidB.]

I conveniently ignore... what, exactly? We've been having this discussion about the PVV and its donors countless times. You have not provided any new facts. I have not seen a reason to change my stance. Simple as that.

It seems to me, though, as if the last poll is more interesting. For the first time in this campaign, it seems there is a real possibility that CDA, D66 or GL may become the largest party. Rutte must be sweating like a dog.

[Zinneke]

Here is a fact :

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016Z22739&did=2016D46550

[DavidB.]

Here is a fact :

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016Z22739&did=2016D46550

Okay? And?

[Zinneke]

Here is a fact :

https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken/detail?id=2016Z22739&did=2016D46550

Okay? And?

THe hysteria you posted about DENK, when it was one of their members who proposed a law to ban foreign funding of Dutch political parties.

Parties who voted against the law:

PVV
VVD
CDA
CU
SGP

Surprise, surprise, bar the CDA they are Atlantacist and on conservative America´s good books.
Meanwhile, Wilders camps outside the Turkish embassy demanding Turks do not interfere with domestic Dutch society.

[DavidB.]

Hysteria about DENK? I don't think that word accurately describes my posts on that party, but who cares if you're trying to win a flame war, right? What's more, I don't think I have ever claimed DENK are financed from abroad (nor that this would be why they are a problematic party), so I'm unsure why this post is addressed to me. I do not oppose Dutch parties being funded from abroad. I also do not support Wilders' protest at the Turkish embassy and have voiced my disapproval of political parties' posturing on this subject in this very thread just a few days ago. A+ in strawmanning.

[Zinneke]

Hysteria about DENK? I don't think that word accurately describes my posts on that party, but who cares if you're trying to win a flame war, right? What's more, I don't think I have ever claimed DENK are financed from abroad (nor that this would be why they are a problematic party), so I'm unsure why this post is addressed to me. I do not oppose Dutch parties being funded from abroad. I also do not support Wilders' protest at the Turkish embassy and have voiced my disapproval of political parties' posturing on this subject in this very thread just a few days ago. A+ in strawmanning.

Its not you that's guilty of hypocrisy (even if there is a 60% chance you are going to vote for them), its the PVV.

[Lord Halifax]

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

It is neocon policy but it is not solely neocon, which is exactly why it seems to me that Rogier uses the word neocon as a synonym for Jew.

It is neo-Con policy, but not "a neo-Con policy", those two things are not synonymous.   

[DavidB.]

Supporting Israel is hardly a neo-Conservative policy.

It is neocon policy but it is not solely neocon, which is exactly why it seems to me that Rogier uses the word neocon as a synonym for Jew.

It is neo-Con policy, but not "a neo-Con policy", those two things are not synonymous.  

You're right (and in my previous post I agreed with you anyway).

[ApatheticAustrian]

The far-right and the far-left both use "neo-liberal" and "neo-con" as synonyms for "jewish". Which is why both extreme-frings groups are the greatest danger for all of us, for liberalism and ofc also for israel.

[Zinneke]

The far-right and the far-left both use "neo-liberal" and "neo-con" as synonyms for "jewish". Which is why both extreme-frings groups are the greatest danger for all of us, for liberalism and ofc also for israel.

Neo-conservatism is a specific political movement within US politics, with certain values, of which policy towards Israel is only a fraction of them, and if so, merely an application in international policy. You can find all this in the works of Yuen Foong Khong. While Wilders himself is not a neo-con (another strawman DavidB is trying to prop up), he is at the service of this political movement, which has amongst other policies, American hegemony over Europe.

Neo-liberalism is a more contested concept, I'll admit. I associate it with VVD's idea of conservative-liberalism, that is, a liberalism that places heavy emphasis on the individual responsibility aspect of classical liberalism as an ideological tenet, and heavily criticises the idea of society (Thatcher is another example). But people have different associations of what neo-liberalism is. I have yet to hear anybody associate neo-liberalism with the Jews though.

And please, keep Israel-Palestine issue out of the Dutch election thread.

 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I have yet to hear anybody associate neo-liberalism with the Jews though.

Pretty common on the Trot parts of the internet, alas.

Anyway, the election...

[DavidB.]

And please, keep Israel-Palestine issue out of the Dutch election thread.

This is the height of dishonesty, dude. You are the one who keeps doing this. You are the one coming up with the double loyalty canard and the edgy DENK parallel everytime I post something about either the PVV or DENK, and I, as opposed to you, actually contribute stuff to this thread otherwise. You need to stop.

Beter zwijgen als ge niets over weet