MA-SEN Megathread: Senator Markey wins

[Blair]

Interesting; Markey should retire to let someone new take over (he’s not even a chair, or a particularly valuable senator) but he’d have a reasonable chance of running to Kennedy’s left on a few issues, and I expect it would cause a few ripples in the state.

Expect this is about pushing Markey to retire; as beyond his age he doesn’t have any key profiles that make a primary loss likely (ethical scandals, ideology, demographics etc)

Kennedy would be a good Senator but of course if he was Joe Bouvier he’d be at 1%.

[Blair]

I pray that the voters of Massachusetts have enough sense to reject Joe Kennedy III, who would be merely the latest in a family dynasty that has had more than its due, and should be relegated to the past. Political dynasties are not a good thing for this country.

Or pray we have the sense to elect a young, well educated, talented, well spoken man who happens to be from a family that has given so much to this country. If Kennedy runs, he wins. And that’s a good thing.

Is your brain set on anything other than "Kennedys 😍" mode?

Also please explain what the Kennedy family has given to this country other than maybe some things JFK liked that Johnson wound up improving on?

First, I don’t see anything wrong with admiring a family that has given so much to this country.

Hell, in Great Britain the whole country adores a family for far less

Anyway (AND IM NOT DENYING THEY HAVE FAULTS) - For starters you have a bunch of examples of a family that could have done nothing but live off of the family fortune but entered into public service (aka politics).

You have Joe Jr volunteering for an extremely dangerous mission in WW2 that killed him.
You have JFK fighting to enlist when he could have used medical reasons to not serve, then he pushed to get an active combat role. Then the PT109 incident where he saved half a dozen members of his crew. The creation of the peace corps and the families constant service to it. The dedication of the Kennedy’s to the Special Olympics ... I could go on and on.

 During World War 2 our royal family stayed in London during the Blitz- Joe Kennedy Sr said that democracy was dead and urged the US not to give any aid to the U.K.- whilst serving as the US ambassador.

A rather ironic story in light of your comment.

[Blair]

The funny point is that as a former rather cringe Kennedy fanboy who’s now more sceptical I see both camps in a different way.

Of course Kennedy would be a no-one if he was Joe Moore but he’s not .

The Kennedy name means that Massachusetts will have another senator who gets TV slots, attention, media gigs, fundraising and all the hoopla- it’s up to people to decide if they want that, but the reality is we don’t live in a zero sum vacuum. It’s much like how Marco Rubio got a great deal of attention simply for being Cuban when everyone was obsessed with the Hispanic votes relationship with the GOP.

 

[Blair]

By this logic with the number of Kennedy’s floating around why didn’t they find one in 2009 or 2013? If the state is blessed by the name alone why not run William Kennedy Smith, Chris Kennedy or one of the other esteemed members of the clan?

This type of logic will see Don Jr, George P Bush, Tagg Romney, Chelsea Clinton in the senate just because the Sunday shows want to stick a microphone under them- heck we’ve seen it with Liz Cheney already and god knows what she’s actually done for Wyoming other than promote Forever War No.4.

As people above say it’s seniority, a good staff, local connections and a work horse attitude that make a good home state Senator- just admit you want Kennedy because it’s a nice fantasy.

Every time I come onto this thread I get more and more anti-Kennedy....

[Blair]

We all know the sole reason for this run is a launchpad for President.

Sure, every politician dreams of being president one day. But, assuming a Democrat wins next year and doesn't choose a running mate in his seventies, there won't be a real opening for Kennedy for another 16 years at least. I seriously doubt a potential presidential bid is factoring into his decision at this point.

Even if a Democrat wins in 2020 and then in 2024, there's no guarantee the VP is sure to become the next Democratic nominee. You're being overly pessimistic.

Yeah and it’s always been the case that a senate seat is a much better place to wait then the house; has a sitting house member even ran a serious presidential campaign in the last 40 years?

[Blair]

Yeah I mean it's obvious that Markey is well-liked, respected & able Senator- the fact that he won a primary in 2013 shows that he's clearly popular to a degree, and no-one can actually say anything that he's done wrong (he isn't a Dan Lipinski on abortion, he isn't a Bob Mendendez on overseas trips & he isn't senile or aged like some members of the senate)

I'm pretty sure if polled the majority of Kennedy voters would say they like Markey but they just want Kennedy; it also helps that unlike the other members of the family he is both an attractive & scandal free version (seriously it helps hugely). It's not about having the name but rather elicting that same feeling that the original brothers did; the perception of energetic, do-good idealism with enough ideoligical vagueness & after 1968 the ability to say that anyone criticising the family was belitting their death. As the Boston Globe says...

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/05/20/opinion/no-surprise-joe-kennedy-is-running-senate-like-kennedy/

And on another aside, the difference between Joe Kennedy running in Massachusetts and Caroline Kennedy running in New York shows a lot about the difference between the states when it comes to the name (and the gender behind the name)

I must also admit for the clarity sake and out of embarrassment that at one stage I wanted Kennedy to run; I always found it bizarre that the Senate wasn't used as a springboard for national candidates & I saw Markey in the mould of the other aging New England Senators but having actually read this thread, reviewed the record and having soured greatly on the Kennedy Dynasty I'd probably vote for Markey.

[Blair]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_United_States_Senate_election_in_Massachusetts

I've actually gone fall cirlce in Atlas as I was a Kennedy fanboy when I joined (I remember a long back & forth with Sanchez about it) the forum & I'm now sh**tposting about Chappaquiddick.

[Blair]

This really is quite a classic senate primary; effective & quiet progressive legislator up against a big name congressman who doesn't actually have anything of substance to say.

[Blair]

This really is quite a classic senate primary; effective & quiet progressive legislator up against a big name congressman who doesn't actually have anything of substance to say.

You’re kidding right...

He’s never in the state. He’s the classic case of political professional. Not that he’s been in it for so long but how he actually handles the job. He coasts and drifts until election time and then suddenly he’s full of energy, passion and excitement.

Every day that passes with this race close makes me disappointed in my state more and more.

Kennedy SHOULD be running away with this. But isn’t.

God forbid someone on the internet said something you disagree with.

[Blair]

This really is quite a classic senate primary; effective & quiet progressive legislator up against a big name congressman who doesn't actually have anything of substance to say.

I'm sorry, how has Markey been an effective legislator again?

Is there any point in me responding? You’ve already posted saying you don’t rate Markey and you don’t rate the Green New Deal so I’m not going to change your mind am I?

[Blair]

This really is quite a classic senate primary; effective & quiet progressive legislator up against a big name congressman who doesn't actually have anything of substance to say.

I'm sorry, how has Markey been an effective legislator again?

Is there any point in me responding? You’ve already posted saying you don’t rate Markey and you don’t rate the Green New Deal so I’m not going to change your mind am I?

Maybe!  I haven't pored through his record, so there could be some important legislation he's helped pass that I'm unaware of.  I just think it's telling that nothing big springs to mind.

You're right, though, that I'm not impressed by his "Green New Deal"--I'll always see that as a prime example of counter-productive posturing for the rubes of the far left. 

Sorry I was short with you for no good reason. BruceJoel sums it up pretty well in a post I've stolen from another thread...

Markey began to lead the charge for environmental protections in the House, so his long record of fighting for the environment is clear as day, especially considering he has a perfect score from the League of Conservation Voters & authored both the 2009 cap-&-trade bill as well as the 1982 Nuclear Freeze Resolution. So to imply that his environmental activism is nothing more than an attempt to get leftists to support him in the here & now is disingenuous & nothing short of an outright lie.

As for other issues, people will obviously have their own interpretations as to whether Markey has been a good Senator. There's no real need to provide evidence for something that's a personal decision. But if you're really more interested in hearing opinions, mine is that Massachusetts needs a strong advocate against climate change, & Markey obviously provides a strong voice in that regard. Warren does her anti-corporate-malfeasance shtick, & together, they're a good duo.

If you want to know about where he stands on the non-environmental issues, though, since you apparently don't seem to take his environmental activism seriously, his commitment to supporting net neutrality was such that he was solely responsible for spearheading the CRA petition which resulted in the Republican-controlled Senate voting to restore net neutrality. And even before the net neutrality debacle, he was already Capitol Hill's premier fighter of the telecom industry, making them earn their massive government subsidies & holding them accountable for not fulfilling their promises.

So, issues wise, he's about as great as you could as for: he's fantastic on the environment, he supports both net neutrality & the internet being treated like a utility, he's helped lead the fight against Trump's attempt to create a culture of terror against our immigrants, & he sponsored a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United.

[Blair]

I often use this thread in the same way that people losing weight look look at old pairs of trousers; I was once of the people who would have spoken about the merits of the Kennedy clan.

I was slowly becoming more critical but this book below was very helpful

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/686198.The_Kennedy_Imprisonment

On a wider point I don't really know what bearing the name has now that the family is so large; you're entering monarchial beliefs if you think that being the 3rd or 4th generation of a bloodline gives you some special right or claim.

[Blair]

I say this as someone who thinks that Joe Kennedy is a perfectly decent representative, doesn't actually rate that badly for a democratic politician & wouldn't be an awful Senator; I just find something uneasy about pretending this isn't an act of careerism (something we all engage in...)

I often use this thread in the same way that people losing weight look look at old pairs of trousers; I was once of the people who would have spoken about the merits of the Kennedy clan.

I was slowly becoming more critical but this book below was very helpful

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/686198.The_Kennedy_Imprisonment

On a wider point I don't really know what bearing the name has now that the family is so large; you're entering monarchial beliefs if you think that being the 3rd or 4th generation of a bloodline gives you some special right or claim.

[Blair]

Ironically if this race was in 2018 I actually think Kennedy would have had a much better shot at winning.

Obviously difficult to tell when I'm not in MA & Covid plays a role but I feel that there just isn't as much willingness or energy to rock the boat rn.

[Blair]

To shamelessly plug myself on the first page of this thread I said it was difficult to beat an incumbent who isn't ethically comprised or out of step ideologically with regions voters; this is even more so a case on the democratic side.

I mean off the top of my head the last democratic senator to get primaried was Joe Lieberman right?

[Blair]

Next they just need to send in FDR Jnr....

Jokes aside this race is a fascinating example of the importance that national campaign groups give you over random hill endorsements.

[Blair]

Next they just need to send in FDR Jnr....

Jokes aside this race is a fascinating example of the importance that national campaign groups give you over random hill endorsements.

The Roosevelts at least had the smarts to stick to low-profile lives in banking or law or whatever after Eleanor died. They knew they couldn't match FDR or TR's stature.

Yeah like most members of the Kennedy's generation before this they had short terms in the House & quit- although my post was a snarky reference to when the Kenendy's sent Fdr Jnr to West Virginia to lie about Humphrey's war record.

[Blair]

It's quite funny as for a while the dirty campaign tactic of the 1960 convention was assumed to be John Connally attacking Kennedy for having addisons & being too unwell... which ofc was denied strongly by the Kennedy camp.

[Blair]

The thing I think is missing in this contest is the fact the Kennedy family don't really have that great a track record in actually winning competitive races; 1980 bombed, the Lt-Gov race in Maryland was lost, the 2018 Illinois Primary was even more of a joke than 1980.

Joe Kennedy III won his primary in 2012 I assume because Barney Frank endorsed him & because he didn't face a significant primary challenge.

Besides I think the fact that the polls show he's getting 40-45% show he's popular; it's just not that easy to knock off an incumbent senator who hasn't really done anything to repel voters.

[Blair]

Employing anti-primary messages against Kennedy that you would deride in other races is pretty asinine.

Of course Markey isn't someone even remotely like Lipinski, but neither is this hurting fundraising in other races, nor is it going to cost us a Senate seat or irreparably divide the party. Kennedy was free to mount a campaign against Markey, and did so in part because Markey didn't seem to have a strong foundation of support compared to other incumbents. If this is also, in part, only possible thanks to his last name, then so be it; it's not exactly something Kennedy can help, and any politician is going to use their advantages whatever they may be.

But all the same, you better come prepared if you're going to try and take on an incumbent, especially one who isn't otherwise damaged or plagued with scandal. And if you're going to be challenging an incumbent, especially one you yourself previously spoke favorably towards, you need a reason for why you're better than them. This isn't an open seat where talking about that your vision is enough, you need a clear and believable message for why they should ditch the other guy.

Markey, smartly, hasn't rolled over and given him one. And neither was he just going to ignore Kennedy's single biggest advantage, his name.

I think this generally sums up my view on primaries; you've got every right to mount one, they should be encouraged against long-time serving Senators but you need to find a good compelling reason to beat them & you can't just blame the voters if you lose (in the same way that Crowley & Co can't)

[Blair]

Does this mean that all 55 4th Generation Kennedys should become senators?

[Blair]

There's a great clip of AOC in Knock Down The House where she compared her mailers with Crowley & said you could tell which one was written by an activist & which one was written by a consultant.