MA-SEN Megathread: Senator Markey wins

[Xing]

So are we actually going to hear an argument about why Kennedy would be a better Senator than Markey other than:

“Generational change”
“He’s not in MA as much as I’d like”
“LeFtIeS bAd LmAo”
“KeNnEdY fAmIlY gOoD”

Anything? As others have said, in other primaries, generational change was not at all the only issue, and can anyone counter my claim that this primary is only “ideological” because Kennedy saw a clearer path to challenging Markey from the right than the left.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I don't think there's really much of an argument for Kennedy other than that he seems like a perfectly acceptable politician.  He wasn't anything special in the House, but he wasn't anything bad either, he was just fine.  He's not like Caroline, who is kind of embarrassing and obviously only became Ambassador to Japan because of her name.  You are right that he doesn't differentiate himself much from Markey on policy and doesn't have any real accomplishments to run on (mainly due to the House being in GOP hands for most of his career).

It's more of an anti-Markey campaign, mainly because he's old and ineffective.  The guy was in the House for nearly 40 years and accomplished nothing.  He got the Senate seat based mainly on tenure and name recognition, and continues to do nothing in the Senate.  At least if you put JKIII in the Senate he has the youth, ambition, and political skill to amount to something.  Markey is just going to be six years of nothing.

Although I'd like to say that Markey also deserves to go because he embarrassed himself and his party by introducing the Green New Deal to the Senate, that's probably not why JKIII is running against him.

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th.  And AOC didn't run on him being "out of touch", she ran on him being a corrupt, racist party boss who personally created ICE.  But the point is, the anger at JKIII for trying to upset a do-nothing long-time incumbent seems absurdly hypocritical, and that's because it's all fake anger.  In reality, they hate JKIII because ever since Markey introduced the GND, he's been deemed an "ally" and anyone who opposes him is therefore a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.

[MAPZZ]

When the only people you have left in your corner are the people who reflexively support anything unpopular on Twitter, you know you have a winning campaign lol.

I'd rather have Markey do nothing in the Senate for another 6 years than the awful sh**t Kennedy would support during that same time.

I'm sure Kennedy could turn into a very influential and powerful Senator, and that's exactly why we're snuffing out his flame right here and now. 

[Morning in Atlas]

I don't think there's really much of an argument for Kennedy other than that he seems like a perfectly acceptable politician.  He wasn't anything special in the House, but he wasn't anything bad either, he was just fine.  He's not like Caroline, who is kind of embarrassing and obviously only became Ambassador to Japan because of her name.  You are right that he doesn't differentiate himself much from Markey on policy and doesn't have any real accomplishments to run on (mainly due to the House being in GOP hands for most of his career).

It's more of an anti-Markey campaign, mainly because he's old and ineffective. The guy was in the House for nearly 40 years and accomplished nothing.

Telecommunications Act of 1996? COPPA? Improving access to broadband? Not to mention his tireless advocacy for the environment and Internet issues.

He got the Senate seat based mainly on tenure and name recognition, and continues to do nothing in the Senate.  At least if you put JKIII in the Senate he has the youth, ambition, and political skill to amount to something.  Markey is just going to be six years of nothing.

You're acting like Kennedy's not going to turn around and run for President in 2024. Give me the six years of seniority over four years of backbenching and a Presidential run.

Although I'd like to say that Markey also deserves to go because he embarrassed himself and his party by introducing the Green New Deal to the Senate, that's probably not why JKIII is running against him.

And there it is, folks. The real reason why MacArthur doesn't support him. Anything to trigger The Bros. 

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th. And AOC didn't run on him being "out of touch", she ran on him being a corrupt, racist party boss who personally created ICE.

The man effectively lived in Virginia his entire time.. He spent most of his time there, his kids went to school in Virginia. He couldn't show up to his own debate. Completely incomparable to Markey, really.

  But the point is, the anger at JKIII for trying to upset a do-nothing long-time incumbent seems absurdly hypocritical, and that's because it's all fake anger.  In reality, they hate JKIII because ever since Markey introduced the GND, he's been deemed an "ally" and anyone who opposes him is therefore a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.[/quote]

Let me spell it out for you, since you're apparently too dense to get it:

People supported AOC and Bowman because they could draw an ideological contrast. Namely, one they could agree with.

[Blair]

The thing I think is missing in this contest is the fact the Kennedy family don't really have that great a track record in actually winning competitive races; 1980 bombed, the Lt-Gov race in Maryland was lost, the 2018 Illinois Primary was even more of a joke than 1980.

Joe Kennedy III won his primary in 2012 I assume because Barney Frank endorsed him & because he didn't face a significant primary challenge.

Besides I think the fact that the polls show he's getting 40-45% show he's popular; it's just not that easy to knock off an incumbent senator who hasn't really done anything to repel voters.

[Blair]

Employing anti-primary messages against Kennedy that you would deride in other races is pretty asinine.

Of course Markey isn't someone even remotely like Lipinski, but neither is this hurting fundraising in other races, nor is it going to cost us a Senate seat or irreparably divide the party. Kennedy was free to mount a campaign against Markey, and did so in part because Markey didn't seem to have a strong foundation of support compared to other incumbents. If this is also, in part, only possible thanks to his last name, then so be it; it's not exactly something Kennedy can help, and any politician is going to use their advantages whatever they may be.

But all the same, you better come prepared if you're going to try and take on an incumbent, especially one who isn't otherwise damaged or plagued with scandal. And if you're going to be challenging an incumbent, especially one you yourself previously spoke favorably towards, you need a reason for why you're better than them. This isn't an open seat where talking about that your vision is enough, you need a clear and believable message for why they should ditch the other guy.

Markey, smartly, hasn't rolled over and given him one. And neither was he just going to ignore Kennedy's single biggest advantage, his name.

I think this generally sums up my view on primaries; you've got every right to mount one, they should be encouraged against long-time serving Senators but you need to find a good compelling reason to beat them & you can't just blame the voters if you lose (in the same way that Crowley & Co can't)

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Kennedy is doing a virtual event with Jayapal about how to achieve M4A, which I suppose is a chance to lay out his theory of change and offer some distinctions from Markey's. He actually has Pocan's endorsement and I think he should have been using connections like these more.

[KaiserDave]

The idea that Markey hasn't done anything.....lol

Good job Sawx

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Employing anti-primary messages against Kennedy that you would deride in other races is pretty asinine.

Of course Markey isn't someone even remotely like Lipinski, but neither is this hurting fundraising in other races, nor is it going to cost us a Senate seat or irreparably divide the party. Kennedy was free to mount a campaign against Markey, and did so in part because Markey didn't seem to have a strong foundation of support compared to other incumbents. If this is also, in part, only possible thanks to his last name, then so be it; it's not exactly something Kennedy can help, and any politician is going to use their advantages whatever they may be.

But all the same, you better come prepared if you're going to try and take on an incumbent, especially one who isn't otherwise damaged or plagued with scandal. And if you're going to be challenging an incumbent, especially one you yourself previously spoke favorably towards, you need a reason for why you're better than them. This isn't an open seat where talking about that your vision is enough, you need a clear and believable message for why they should ditch the other guy.

Markey, smartly, hasn't rolled over and given him one. And neither was he just going to ignore Kennedy's single biggest advantage, his name.

I think this generally sums up my view on primaries; you've got every right to mount one, they should be encouraged against long-time serving Senators but you need to find a good compelling reason to beat them & you can't just blame the voters if you lose (in the same way that Crowley & Co can't)

You absolutely can, although it won't do much for your political future. In the words of a losing California Senate candidate on election night, 1966: "The people have spoken, the bastards."

[brucejoel99]

The thing I think is missing in this contest is the fact the Kennedy family don't really have that great a track record in actually winning competitive races; 1980 bombed, the Lt-Gov race in Maryland was lost, the 2018 Illinois Primary was even more of a joke than 1980.

Joe Kennedy III won his primary in 2012 I assume because Barney Frank endorsed him & because he didn't face a significant primary challenge.

Besides I think the fact that the polls show he's getting 40-45% show he's popular; it's just not that easy to knock off an incumbent senator who hasn't really done anything to repel voters.

What's particularly notable about the possibility of JKIII in particular losing, though, is that he'd be the first ever Kennedy to actually lose an election in the state of Massachusetts itself.

[Ancestral Republican]

Kennedy hasn't run a great campaign, but Markey's campaign has been despicable.

He's been turning this race into a referendum on the Kennedy family and allied himself with these absolute assholes on the far-left who act as his shock troops doing everything they can to trash JKIII and the Kennedys as a whole.  Most of them had no idea who Kennedy or Markey were three months ago and now they're turned "Vote for Markey" into a progressive litmus test.

And you want to talk personal attacks?  Markey fired first.  But really, he's been firing throughout this campaign by letting Rose Twitter do the dirty work of oppo and character assassination against JKIII.

Such a shame that JKIII fell into this bear trap.  He was a rising star in the party, and ordinarily, running a primary campaign against a 74-year-old incumbent who's lost touch with his district is something we're cool with.  Right, AOC and Cori Bush fans?

Unfortunately, Markey used this destructive, divisive strategy, and now even if JKIII wins his career is going to be forever kneecapped by the relentless demonization and character assassination he's endured from the progressive left, for nothing other than the crime of challenging The Great Ed Markey, who I repeat, none of these people actually knows anything about other than that he's AOC's buddy.  Imagine if someone told them he voted for the Iraq War.  According to Bernie, that's a disqualifying mistake.

Amen. Finally some one who is awake on this race

I don't know if GMA is the ally you want here. Dude's obsession with AOC borders on unhealthy.

I'm not sure if it's a Ben Shapiro-style "she won't send me feet pics" issue, but hopefully it's resolved soon and we can start to recognize the positive, progressive direction the Democratic Party is taking.

[Interlocutor is just not there yet]

Walks into thread hoping to enjoy another 2 pages of interesting discussion regarding this interesting primary

Sees it's been severely derailed by another batch of GMAs "I'm only against ______ because my entire political beliefs are dictated by triggering AOC/BernieBros/RoseTwitter likes and supporting everything they don't" essays clearly not meant to "turn this thread into an everyone-vs-GMA fight"

Looks at the calendar to find that it's been 4 months since Bernie Sanders dropped out of the primary and when GMA transferred all his hate towards AOC

Searches for programs meant to exorcise the far-left spirits that he's allowed to torment his head rent-free

Debates whether GMA is even real or an outrageous parody of an anti-far left poster

Runs far away as this thread transforms into yet another "Far Left vs Moderate Left" pissing contest

[Morning in Atlas]

Two and a half pages of the forum dragging the ****libs.

You love to see it.

[coloradocowboi]

Even if it weren't true that Markey hasn't "accomplished" anything or is "ineffective," the Green New Deal right now stands the greatest likelihood of all the ideas comprising the current progressive orthodoxy to see passage during the Biden presidency and it will be remembered as a massive accomplishment that saves our economy, saves lives, and saves our planet. Ed Markey is its champion and architect. IMO that's more than any Kennedy past, present, or future has or will done, and even if Markey can't pull through this sham of a primary he will be remembered as an absolute FF by history and future generations.

[MillennialModerate]

When the only people you have left in your corner are the people who reflexively support anything unpopular on Twitter, you know you have a winning campaign lol.

The reason for that is “Twitter” has become synonymous with young, intolerant and vile punks.

I'm sure Kennedy could turn into a very influential and powerful Senator, and that's exactly why we're snuffing out his flame right here and now.  

Uh? That makes sense..... I guess? He will be a good and influential senator so you want to make sure that doesn’t happen and you keep the do nothing Markey? Are you a Republican or something?

[MillennialModerate]

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th.  And AOC didn't run on him being "out of touch", she ran on him being a corrupt, racist party boss who personally created ICE.  But the point is, the anger at JKIII for trying to upset a do-nothing long-time incumbent seems absurdly hypocritical, and that's because it's all fake anger.  In reality, they hate JKIII because ever since Markey introduced the GND, he's been deemed an "ally" and anyone who opposes him is therefore a hated enemy who must be destroyed at all costs.

Thank you. The hypocrisy is hilarious

[Continential]

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th. 

Crowley's family lived in Virginia, and his children attended VA public schools instead of the schools where in the 14th, and AOC campaigned on this as well.

[gerritcole]

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th. 

Crowley's family lived in Virginia, and his children attended VA public schools instead of the schools where in the 14th, and AOC campaigned on this as well.

And what does that have to do with representing his district

[Continential]

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th. 

Crowley's family lived in Virginia, and his children attended VA public schools instead of the schools where in the 14th, and AOC campaigned on this as well.

And what does that have to do with representing his district

It shows that when your own family lives in Virginia and doesn't go to schools from your district that you "represent" that you probably don't represent the district well.

[Dipper Josh]

"All the Senators I don't like don't actually do anything. America has actually completely adopted my entire ideology because all the senators that are different from me, just sit back all day and play candy crush on their phone. I am very smart."

[MillennialModerate]

Debate last night.

The last debate Kennedy crushed Markey and it wasn’t close.

The first 20 minutes of this debate was more of the same and Markey appeared flat footed on the DJ Henry case. But he picked it up and made a decent case for himself as the night went along.

If you were undecided going into the debate you probably remained that way.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

After AOC won, her supporters said it was a good thing, because Joe Crowley was old and out-of-touch and ineffective.  The reality is that Crowley was very in-touch with his district, in fact that was the main thing he did as a Rep was take care of the 14th. 

Crowley's family lived in Virginia, and his children attended VA public schools instead of the schools where in the 14th, and AOC campaigned on this as well.

And what does that have to do with representing his district

It shows that when your own family lives in Virginia and doesn't go to schools from your district that you "represent" that you probably don't represent the district well.

I'm gonna push back on this. I think it's absolutely reasonable for the family of a representative to relocate to the DMV area for the sake of their family's own well-being and I don't think being hundreds of miles from your kids makes you a more effective legislator.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

This is why Markey is tied with Kennedy, he is the Hunert Humphrey of the cycle, and Joe Kennedy is the RFK

[Calthrina950]

The thing I think is missing in this contest is the fact the Kennedy family don't really have that great a track record in actually winning competitive races; 1980 bombed, the Lt-Gov race in Maryland was lost, the 2018 Illinois Primary was even more of a joke than 1980.

Joe Kennedy III won his primary in 2012 I assume because Barney Frank endorsed him & because he didn't face a significant primary challenge.

Besides I think the fact that the polls show he's getting 40-45% show he's popular; it's just not that easy to knock off an incumbent senator who hasn't really done anything to repel voters.

The only truly competitive race I can think of won by the Kennedy family was JFK's own election in 1960, and that was sixty years ago. And of course, we all know of what has been said about the electoral chicanery that took place in Illinois and Texas during that election. RFK of course had his Senate race in New York in 1964, but he was carried into office on President Johnson's coattails. And again, that was many decades ago. There is no member of the family in recent times who has successfully won a competitive race.

[brucejoel99]

The thing I think is missing in this contest is the fact the Kennedy family don't really have that great a track record in actually winning competitive races; 1980 bombed, the Lt-Gov race in Maryland was lost, the 2018 Illinois Primary was even more of a joke than 1980.

Joe Kennedy III won his primary in 2012 I assume because Barney Frank endorsed him & because he didn't face a significant primary challenge.

Besides I think the fact that the polls show he's getting 40-45% show he's popular; it's just not that easy to knock off an incumbent senator who hasn't really done anything to repel voters.

The only truly competitive race I can think of won by the Kennedy family was JFK's own election in 1960, and that was sixty years ago. And of course, we all know of what has been said about the electoral chicanery that took place in Illinois and Texas during that election. RFK of course had his Senate race in New York in 1964, but he was carried into office on President Johnson's coattails. And again, that was many decades ago. There is no member of the family in recent times who has successfully won a competitive race.

JFK's first Massachusetts Senate race in 1952 against incumbent (& future Nixon 1960 running mate) Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. was really close too: 51-48.