Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza

[Daniel Adams]

It's about time Israel responded.

[Daniel Adams]

Horrible and we should impose full sanctions on Tel Aviv.

For defending itself against constant Palestinian attacks?

[Daniel Adams]

Horrible and we should impose full sanctions on Tel Aviv.

For defending itself against constant Palestinian attacks?

And you know what triggered those constant Palestinian attacks against Israel now don't you?

Pray tell. Israel has respected the ceasefire with Hamas. As usual, however, the Palestinians have completely ignored the agreement. What could possibly justify Palestinian attacks against Israeli civilians?

[Daniel Adams]

OK, these Palestinian medical officials who are giving the casualty figures- who are they actually?

Cousins to Saddam's Information Minister?

Why is it your natural inclination to disbelieve anything that Palestinian authroities give?

They've had little qualms about lying in the past. And they're the ones purposely targeting civilians, so they don't appear to be particularly honorable men.

[Daniel Adams]

You know things are serious when the Wall Street Journal prints an editorial accusing the IDF of war crimes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Ever since Paul Gigot became editor-in-chief the WSJ editorial page has featured a variety of different perspectives, although the editorial line remains conservative. The WSJ has printed articles authored by Democrats (e.g. Hillary Clinton), articles supporting drug legalization, and recently an essay by Mark Helprin slamming Bush's foreign policy. There's nothing special about the article you cite. The WSJ editors remain as pro-Israel as ever.

[Daniel Adams]

I have to say Israel deserves all this sh**t that it gets in the world. They were the ones who violated the peace treaty

cite?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Already cited in this thread btw, on page 10. Maybe instead of just asking for citations, you should actually read them.

Perhaps you should avoid blindly placing your trust on a single opinion article.

The Israeli "violation" of the peace treaty was self-defensive. It consisted in destroying a tunnel like the one Hamas has used in the past to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The Palestinian that was killed in the raid happened to be a member of Hamas, a fact the author of the article doesn't see fit to mention.

Israel's explanation seems perfectly valid and I don't see why you can't at least entertain the notion that Israel may have been acted in self-defense. Or do Palestinians have an inalienable right to construct underground tunnels into Israel?

Also, surely you agree that the Palestinian reaction to the Israeli raid was disproportionate? Firing thousands of rockets into Israeli civilian areas, including schools and playgrounds, is hardly the appropriate response to the Israeli destruction of a tunnel.

[Daniel Adams]

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.

I know it's hard for you to fathom, but get this: innocent civilians die during war! It's unfortunate but unavoidable, even more unavoidable when Hamas intentionally puts innocent civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes.

Israel has gone to incredible lengths to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza, even at the detriment of their own soldiers. They temporarily halted their attacks to allow civilians to get aid (as Hamas was stealing aid supplies and reselling them), they have given Gazans access to Israeli hospitals, and they even called homes before bombing them to allow civilians to get out! Of course, Hamas has taken advantage of the latter and sends in human shields. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas hides their weapons among civilian populations. The deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza are the responsibility solely of Hamas.

[Daniel Adams]

And yet they did break the peace agreement didn't they. I am not going to nitpick about it, just pointing it out. The larger point is that you will rarely hear it in the media and we have to hear it from "opinion" pieces. And perhaps Hamas's reaction to this incident was disproportionate, no actually it was. But isn't Israel's reaction even more disproportionate than what Hamas did. The rate at which civilians are being killed in Gaza is just staggering. Israel really has fallen to new lows. I do believe they have a right to self defense but what they are doing now is going above and beyond it. I doubt its actually solving anything anyways, just creating more enemies. Yet that is Israel's only option left isn't it. I think we all have to realize that one day the state of Israel will fall and all Arabs and Jews will have to live under one government, and perhaps Jews won't be the majority. Aww how sad.

I know it's hard for you to fathom, but get this: innocent civilians die during war! It's unfortunate but unavoidable, even more unavoidable when Hamas intentionally puts innocent civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes.

Israel has gone to incredible lengths to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza, even at the detriment of their own soldiers. They temporarily halted their attacks to allow civilians to get aid (as Hamas was stealing aid supplies and reselling them), they have given Gazans access to Israeli hospitals, and they even called homes before bombing them to allow civilians to get out! Of course, Hamas has taken advantage of the latter and sends in human shields. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas hides their weapons among civilian populations. The deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza are the responsibility solely of Hamas.

Yes some civilian casualties are always possible but this time Israel is doing too much, especially bombing UN sanctioned shelters. Hamas is obviously at fault as well but shouldn't Israel be a little more civilized than them. Anyways aren't all the rockets landing in land which Israel gained during war and then kept for "security". It's not as if the rockets are reaching Tel Aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem. Its probably only affecting those dirty settlers, who have as much fault in creating the whole mess as the PLO, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. One third! Despite the fact that it is extremely densely populated and that Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way. Israel has done more than any nation in history to minimize civilian casualties.

As an aside, it appears the author of your beloved WSJ article is an advocate of a "one-state solution", i.e. the elimination of Israel.

[Daniel Adams]

And in the end Israel killed 100x as many people as Hamas did during this time. Now that's certainly a proportional response!

By that logic, the invasion of Afghanistan was a grossly disproportionate response to the 9/11 attacks. Do you oppose it? Also, the Pacific War against Japan was an extremely "disproportionate" response to Pearl Harbor. Again, do you think it was wrong?

[Daniel Adams]

Only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. One third! Despite the fact that it is extremely densely populated and that Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way. Israel has done more than any nation in history to minimize civilian casualties.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from. The only available source for casualty information is the Palestinian Ministry of Health and they have recorded 1010 deaths including 315 children and 76 women (These figures may be old, the BBC is listing over 1300 Palestinian casualties). On the basis of those figures I would find it unlikely that only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. Of course, we can question whether or not the figures are exaggerated, but there are no alternatives forthcoming. Beyond those, all the information we have is that the UN figures for homelessness (50,800) and those without running water (400,000). The UN has also reported that its headquarters in Gaza was hit  by white phosphorus shells. Use of white phosphorus in civilian areas is proscribed by the Geneva Convention so if this is confirmed to be true then it is pretty damning of IDF tactics.

I'm afraid I confused casualties with deaths in my post. According to this article, one Moaiya Hassanain of the Palestinian Health Ministry estimated "estimated that one-third of those killed were non-combatants". Col. Moshe Levi of the IDF, on the other hand, estimates only 25% of deaths in Gaza have been innocent civilians. Given the Palestinians' past record on these things (e.g. the Jenin "massacre"), I trust the Israelis much more. The Palestinian leadership knows that high civilian casualties are good propaganda for their cause and it is extremely likely they inflate the figures, particularly when considering they purposely put civilians in harms' way. Also worth mentioning is the fact that Hamas fighters dress as civilians (a violation of the Geneva Conventions I believe), which probably confuses the civilian casualty counts even further.

White phosphorus is used to create smokescreens and illuminate targets. It is not an illegal incendiary weapon per the CCWC's definition, which states that "incendiary weapons do not include munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems" (Protocol III of Article 1). Of course, it burns at very high temperatures, so it can have very damaging collateral effects. However, its use to create smoke and to illuminate targets is completely legal and the ICRC found Israel has not misused WP.

Incidentally, the UN compound bombed by Israel was being used as a firing station by Hamas fighters. Israel "opened fire after militants inside the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns".

[Daniel Adams]

Hamas is no weaker now than they were before this. Israel didn't accomplish anything but strengthen Hamas support among the populace.

That doesn't make the original invasion illegitimate. It merely shows how spineless the current Israeli government is.

[Daniel Adams]

Human rights groups are still obsessing about Israel's use of WP, even after the Red Cross said it was legal (as any being capable of reason would've already figured out)? Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

[Daniel Adams]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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[Daniel Adams]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

The IDF (unlike the US military in Iraq) constantly updated the body count during the war, which may have inflated their death toll estimate.

In any case, the doctor's statement that "most of them [the dead] are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas" buttresses the Israeli claim that only a third of the dead were civilians.