Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza

[Јas]

What virtue is there in a proportional response? 

Proportional responses don't foster resentment and ire amongst peoples who are, or are perceived to be, oppressed - such that it creates a new generation of potential insurgents and moves everyone that much further from a potential peaceful settlement.

(That and proportionality is generally viewed as a requirement under international law.)

[Sir Coffeebeans]

Israel has been constantly blowing things out of proportion (where better to use that phrase?) since the beginning of this conflict. The only reason they are allowed to do so is because to global hatred of Islam and sympathy toward Jews. Everything in the end boils down to religion, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or others I have failed to mention. This secular violence needs to stop.

[Yamor]

I seriously don't get what people want. Do you think Israel should have only killed 13 Palestinians? Do you seriously think Israel were trying to 'punish' Palestinians, trying to get 'revenge'? If that would be the case, you could claim it was disproportionate.
That was not Israel's aim. Israel were trying to stop rocket attacks, or at least drastically reduce rocket stockpiles, and destroy infrastructure used to send said rockets. In that case, any response they believed necessary, however unfortunate, is legitimate. Proportionate in this case is anything that can achieve these legitimate objectives.

[k-onmmunist]

Israel has been constantly blowing things out of proportion (where better to use that phrase?) since the beginning of this conflict. The only reason they are allowed to do so is because to global hatred of Islam and sympathy toward Jews. Everything in the end boils down to religion, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or others I have failed to mention. This secular violence needs to stop.

So Israel should just sit out and let their people be killed?

[Sir Coffeebeans]

Legitimate objectives? That is the problem. The objectives may have been that at first, but they warped into something that we do not want to see, it any conflict. There is a reason why Israel cannot keep peace with its neighbors, and it is being shown right here. Right now, the new administration needs to stop all this loving Israel business and become neutral in this conflict. There are two trends here: (1) Israel tends to move towards arms before diplomacy and (2) The USA continues to love Israel, promoting their tactics.

[dead0man]

So they should use diplomacy when the halfwits keep firing spit wads?  Would you?

[JohnFKennedy]

Only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. One third! Despite the fact that it is extremely densely populated and that Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way. Israel has done more than any nation in history to minimize civilian casualties.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from. The only available source for casualty information is the Palestinian Ministry of Health and they have recorded 1010 deaths including 315 children and 76 women (These figures may be old, the BBC is listing over 1300 Palestinian casualties). On the basis of those figures I would find it unlikely that only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. Of course, we can question whether or not the figures are exaggerated, but there are no alternatives forthcoming. Beyond those, all the information we have is that the UN figures for homelessness (50,800) and those without running water (400,000). The UN has also reported that its headquarters in Gaza was hit  by white phosphorus shells. Use of white phosphorus in civilian areas is proscribed by the Geneva Convention so if this is confirmed to be true then it is pretty damning of IDF tactics.

This was a particularly tragic case.

You'd think the people that keep dying would wise up and stop firing spit balls at the grizzly bear.

In the same way that Israel might learn that their attacks only serve to further radicalise many Palestinians or turn moderate Palestinians towards Islamic fundamentalism? I don't think either side has learnt much in the last few years and neither are likely to from recent events.

[Purple State]

I have tried to keep away from this thread, but just a quick thought:

If Hamas is hiding among incredibly densely populated civilian areas then how exactly do you propose Israel use white phosphorous in non-civilian areas? There is no neighborhood exclusively for Hamas militants.

[Daniel Adams]

Only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. One third! Despite the fact that it is extremely densely populated and that Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way. Israel has done more than any nation in history to minimize civilian casualties.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from. The only available source for casualty information is the Palestinian Ministry of Health and they have recorded 1010 deaths including 315 children and 76 women (These figures may be old, the BBC is listing over 1300 Palestinian casualties). On the basis of those figures I would find it unlikely that only a third of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. Of course, we can question whether or not the figures are exaggerated, but there are no alternatives forthcoming. Beyond those, all the information we have is that the UN figures for homelessness (50,800) and those without running water (400,000). The UN has also reported that its headquarters in Gaza was hit  by white phosphorus shells. Use of white phosphorus in civilian areas is proscribed by the Geneva Convention so if this is confirmed to be true then it is pretty damning of IDF tactics.

I'm afraid I confused casualties with deaths in my post. According to this article, one Moaiya Hassanain of the Palestinian Health Ministry estimated "estimated that one-third of those killed were non-combatants". Col. Moshe Levi of the IDF, on the other hand, estimates only 25% of deaths in Gaza have been innocent civilians. Given the Palestinians' past record on these things (e.g. the Jenin "massacre"), I trust the Israelis much more. The Palestinian leadership knows that high civilian casualties are good propaganda for their cause and it is extremely likely they inflate the figures, particularly when considering they purposely put civilians in harms' way. Also worth mentioning is the fact that Hamas fighters dress as civilians (a violation of the Geneva Conventions I believe), which probably confuses the civilian casualty counts even further.

White phosphorus is used to create smokescreens and illuminate targets. It is not an illegal incendiary weapon per the CCWC's definition, which states that "incendiary weapons do not include munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems" (Protocol III of Article 1). Of course, it burns at very high temperatures, so it can have very damaging collateral effects. However, its use to create smoke and to illuminate targets is completely legal and the ICRC found Israel has not misused WP.

Incidentally, the UN compound bombed by Israel was being used as a firing station by Hamas fighters. Israel "opened fire after militants inside the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns".

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Hamas is no weaker now than they were before this. Israel didn't accomplish anything but strengthen Hamas support among the populace.

[Purple State]

Hamas is no weaker now than they were before this. Israel didn't accomplish anything but strengthen Hamas support among the populace.

What's new? They did destroy a sizable chunk of the border tunnels though (not that this required an invasion of the scale that took place).

I guess the hope is that, even without a clear victory (what does that even mean?), the rocket attacks will mostly stop the same way Hezbollah has stopped since '06.

[Daniel Adams]

Hamas is no weaker now than they were before this. Israel didn't accomplish anything but strengthen Hamas support among the populace.

That doesn't make the original invasion illegitimate. It merely shows how spineless the current Israeli government is.

[Earth]

A few interesting articles:

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057485.html

[dead0man]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

[danny]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

Their methods have only been stupid if Hamas's goal is the creation of a Palestinian state within the 67 borders. However, this isn't and never was their goal, their goal is the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Islamic one, and their actions are suitable for that.

[Daniel Adams]

Human rights groups are still obsessing about Israel's use of WP, even after the Red Cross said it was legal (as any being capable of reason would've already figured out)? Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

[Sbane]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

Yeah I can't wait till the day the palestinians finally get it. A little slow aren't they?

[Јas]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

[Јas]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

Like it or not, the methods Hamas employ gain them international attention. Getting Israel to engage in blowing stuff up is sometimes exactly what Hamas want. It generates significant sympathy and support for Palestinian extremists when Israel pulls the trigger and hundreds of innocents suffer.

The coincidence of an Israeli Government in need of a poll boost coming up to new elections, the departure of a US President willing to take instruction from Jerusalem, and an incoming US President who remains an unknown quantity, gave Israel a unique opportunity to engage at little immediate cost (though I suspect at the medium-long term cost of increased security concerns and the movement further away from securing a peaceful long-term solution to the wider conflict).

[dead0man]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

So they are exempt from being "obsessed over" by human rights groups?

[Sbane]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

I disagree. A coordinated international effort led by a charismatic leader would definitely be recognized. Some would have said the same thing about the apartheid situation in South Africa in the 70's and 80's but look how that turned out.

[Daniel Adams]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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[Јas]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

So they are exempt from being "obsessed over" by human rights groups?

What is there to obsess over?
No human rights group would deny that Hamas's tactics are plainly unwarranted, indefensible and detestable.

[dead0man]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

Like it or not, the methods Hamas employ gain them international attention. Getting Israel to engage in blowing stuff up is sometimes exactly what Hamas want. It generates significant sympathy and support for Palestinian extremists when Israel pulls the trigger and hundreds of innocents suffer.

Exactly.  Which is why I find it so weird that people actually want them to "win" here and totally ignore the atrocities committed by Hamas.

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Except the last time Israel took action against this kind of thing, the people were very displeased with it.  

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Maybe you're right, maybe not.  We'll never know.

[dead0man]

Have they expressed any concern whatsoever about Hamas violating the Geneva Conventions by dressing and civilians and using human shields?

However unsavoury Hamas's tactics may be, neither they nor Palestine are parties to the Geneva Conventions and by the Conventions own provisions are therefore not subject to the rules therein.

So they are exempt from being "obsessed over" by human rights groups?

What is there to obsess over?
No human rights group would deny that Hamas's tactics are plainly unwarranted, indefensible and detestable.

Yet they only protest Israel/US, odd isn't it?