Does the Jesus Christ Party have an effective monopoly over Atlasian politics?

[Scam of God]

The JCP has held the Presidency for thirteen months now. They have had four Presidents elected out of their ranks, serving a total of five terms (two half-terms included). They have been the majority Party for two Senatorial terms. Atlasia is now effectively a social-democracy. I think the evidence is overwhelming: there is no effective opposition to them. They are the de facto Party of Atlasia.

And why? Surely it is through no quality of their own - they are relatively mediocre, all things considered; the only thing obscuring their factionalism is the utter discord inherent within the ranks of their opponents.

This, of course, must be the answer: they have no real opposition. The RPP is a joke. The DA, noble as it is, can offer no real competition, and largely accepts the existence of the JCP's social-democratic consensus.

Again, I argue this is the inevitable result of the present Party System: the "conservatives" are vague and ill-defined, and contain a motley mixture of clashing interests and ideologies. See how easily Tmthforu94 bolted the RPP, with many followers in tow. And why? Because the RPP did not serve his ideological niche. Likewise the ARC.

I don't offer any answers; you'd inevitably reject the one I do. Still, it's worth pondering.

[Scam of God]

I have advocated a realignment for a while...

A social-democratic party
A conservative party
A "populist" Farmer-Labor-esque party
A party for economic moderate/social libertarians

If I did'nt love my DA brothers so I would personally found this party

I think you ought to. I think you, and Democratic Hawk, and Tmthforu94, and benconstine, all have the makings of a nucleus that could interrupt the system, just as I and PiT and Mecha and Hamilton do.

[Scam of God]

For now? Yes, as did the NLC before it. This is not unusual.

Ah, but the NLC only had three - rather admittedly long - Presidential terms among them, and hadn't close to the lasting impact of the JCP.

[Scam of God]

The DA does well because of the JCP though. The LNF or ARC would do just as well if the JCP picked us. Basically the same success rate of any party that chooses to ride on the JCP's coattails.

Which is essentially true, and what I meant by this:

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The DA, while a fine organization that I once considered joining, is, basically, a me-too Party. And while I like a vast majority of its members on a personal level, I don't know that it, as an entity, can really offer any but token resistance to the JCP.

[Scam of God]

The LNF has offered and does offer genuine opposition: not just to the transitory aspects of the game, to whoever the controversial figure of the day is, but to the system as a whole, to the flawed paradigm that has nonetheless taken root.

Aye, but the LNF is a non-ideological catch-all Party for the disgruntled - good for a protest vote, but hardly a governing Party.

[Scam of God]

Common ideals? You make it seem like the JCP and DA never find anything in common. We find socially liberal positions in common quite often, and JCP and DA Senators often have found agreement on economic matters as well. They're not some abused minority that don't get anything they want passed, for heaven's sake.

Which is precisely the point and the problem, methinks - you agree too much, to the ultimate effect that makes it seem as if a vote for the DA is a vote for the JCP by proxy.

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Sure, I don't deny this. But you have compounded the problem by automatically labeling all right-leaning newcomers to the game 'zombies'. PiT never invited me; I came.

[Scam of God]

The DA is not just the moderate liberal/moderate libertarian party,

Nor should they be, as that is what the JCP (ostensibly) is. In order for the game to function properly and come close to accurately reflecting real-life Party politics, there has to be enough room for some ideological light to shine through.

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Sure, but competency alone doesn't win elections, as we've so often seen IRL. I like the DA, honestly, and I fear that it will always have also-ran status because of its inability to distance itself from you. It is possible to be both competent and ideologically opposed to the JCP.

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Alright. The thing to do then, it seems to me, would be to evaluate these instances on a case-by-case basis - a hegemony of long-term players would probably get old very fast, which is what the current policies on the subject are going to rapidly lead to.

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That was entirely the point.

[Scam of God]

I'm not sure if so many parties can coexist.

I certainly think they could. The total vote threshold to win an election would be lowered, but at the same time you'd have something more representative, which I'd consider to be more truly democratic. It would certainly equalize the disparity between social and economic-issue voters.

[Scam of God]

I think we'd be subject to parties cannibalizing each other.

Which is all part of the democratic practice - it would actually force politicians to be more flexible, to court the bases of the other Parties, hence implicitly forcing them to take a less ideological stance. Which may be bad for you if you're presently the majority Party, but fine for you when you aren't.

[Scam of God]

I think we'd be subject to parties cannibalizing each other.

Which is all part of the democratic practice - it would actually force politicians to be more flexible, to court the bases of the other Parties, hence implicitly forcing them to take a less ideological stance. Which may be bad for you if you're presently the majority Party, but fine for you when you aren't.

Yes, but the process would, I fear, lead eventually to a dominant-party system. It appears to be the norm in Atlasia.

Sure, probably it would. But such periods would probably be shorter than they are presently (seriously, thirteen months, when the length of the average Presidential term is three?). Moreover, it'd probably make the game more interesting, at any rate.

[Scam of God]

What people often forget is that the SDP joined the JCP for a damn good reason. The party structure at that time was grossly unfair and weighted against left-wingers. When I won my election to the Senate in June, there were no Social Democrats in the Senate. The RPP at one point controlled five Seats, didn't they? It was an unfair system that ultimately led to what we have now.

The problem is not the parties, the problem is the people on the right not getting their sh** together.

Ideally we would have four parties, representing the four quadrants of the political axis: center-right, center-left, center-horizontal, center-vertical (in real life I'd prefer these latter two to the former if we were to retain a two-party structure). And each would be forced to build temporary coalitions with the others, thus minimizing the risk of the scenario that used to exist here.

[Scam of God]

What people often forget is that the SDP joined the JCP for a damn good reason. The party structure at that time was grossly unfair and weighted against left-wingers. When I won my election to the Senate in June, there were no Social Democrats in the Senate. The RPP at one point controlled five Seats, didn't they? It was an unfair system that ultimately led to what we have now.

The problem is not the parties, the problem is the people on the right not getting their sh** together.

Ideally we would have four parties, representing the four quadrants of the political axis: center-right, center-left, center-horizontal, center-vertical (in real life I'd prefer these latter two to the former if we were to retain a two-party structure). And each would be forced to build temporary coalitions with the others, thus minimizing the risk of the scenario that used to exist here.

Einzige, Atlasia is so heavily tilted toward the left on social issues that social conservatism will never truly prevail. The real divide is merely between social liberalism and social libertarianism, two inherently different ideological perspectives.

Largely because of the fact of the JCP's dominance, I think. There is a sizable minority of populist/New Dealer JCPers who would probably bolt to a hypothetical populist Party, thus giving social conservatism a stronger voice - something I'm more than open to, given the current situation.

[Scam of God]

Bah, I don't know why I'm bothering. These threads inevitably become some sort of Einzige-Hamilton echo chamber where Hamilton goes on trying to remodel his image for the umpteenth time.

As opposed to what - the JCP echo chamber that is presently Atlas Fantasy Elections?

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I'm sure that's what the RPPers said when you joined and they had five Senate seats.

[Scam of God]

Newsflash: That was precisely the problem. The left was needlessly split. The SDP joined the JCP, and we moved forward in a unified fashion. It was because of silly rivalries and antsy-pants people jumping around all the time that the left-wing couldn't form a powerful voting bloc.

Same situation here, except on the right. You need to settle down, regroup, and work out your silly issues and image problems.

That's just the thing: I'm not interested in breaking up the JCP hegemony just so the RPP can swoop in and establish their own. Too much of that thing is unhealthy for competitive Party politics and democracy. I want to stop hegemonic rule from ever being established again, by re-orienting the Party structure so as to make it more ideologically balanced, and more competitive. I'm not saying you people should roll over next election - I'm saying you should split willingly along ideological lines, as should the RPP.

[Scam of God]

And now you just sound like Xahar in the SDP vs. JCP days. You maintain a split in the right and then blame the left for the current political system. Simply stunning.

Where the Hell do you get off saying this is some sort of Secret Rightist Conspiracy to deprive the JCP its rightful place in the sun? If you hadn't noticed, I squabble far more with the RPP than I do with your Party's members, and my suggestion would give rise to a populist/authoritarian Party, which is politically my opposite. It's not the forum's leftist hegemony that bothers me, it's the fact that this hegemony is asserted by essentially one Party, which cheapens the game.

[Scam of God]

I agree with Xahar, ftr. The SDP filled a hole in the spectrum at the time, as the ARC has now.

No no, you're the inverse of the LNF, the right-wing "anti-RPP" party.

Except we're not right-wing.

[Scam of God]

We - or, at least, I - am not even economically right-wing. Would an economic right-winger support investment in three-dimensional printing and rapid fabricating technology, so as to hurry up the democratization of the means of production and accomplish a Marxian goal without the revolution? Would an economic right-winger specifically target those industries the real right-wingers like to support with subsidies (agribusiness and the defense industry)?

Moreover, what you just said -

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- is, imo, part of the problem, and part of the reason for our recent stagnation.

[Scam of God]

So "the left" may be unified, but the center is screwed, and the right is just a train wreck. Unless this is fixed soon, this game is in serious danger.

Moreover, "the left" is not really unified - coalitions never are. The Social-Democrats dominate; the Populists are left in the lurch; the Left-Libertarians have no voice at all.

[Scam of God]

I don't understand the hate- the Jesus Christ Party is a progressive organization dedicated to good government. If the party has had some success, this is because many Atlasians like what they see.

Sincerely,

Former Senator Rob (JCP-OR)

Political hegemonies have a way of distorting debate and stifling innovation, even in the ideological areas they profess to champion. I argue that my programme of vastly reducing State subsidization in Big Business and promoting the use of desktop manufacturing would go a long way in reducing poverty and providing full employment, yet the JCP insists on indirectly redistributing wealth (and not real power - real, manufacturing power) through the State. It is clear we want the same goal; I simply want it more directly than you do. And the present power structure shuts me, and many others like me, totally out.

[Scam of God]

I don't understand the hate- the Jesus Christ Party is a progressive organization dedicated to good government. If the party has had some success, this is because many Atlasians like what they see. Why would you want to fight that?

Sincerely,

Former Senator Rob (JCP-OR)

What's baffling is how the blame is somehow placed on the JCP.

The LNF comes to form after the merging of the SDP and JCP, because they, for the most part, don't like Bgwah.

The DA doesn't want to associate with the right-wing and people like Hamilton because they've acted like utter fools for months, so they have friendly relationships with mature JCP members they're close to.

The ARC forms in a split from the RPP and right-wing in general, despite having almost identical positions.

And all of this, the result of it, is our fault? That has to be the single dumbest conclusion I've ever seen anyone reach here in Atlasia. It's utterly mind boggling.

Why don't you talk about issues, Marokai? I don't care about personalities. I don't give a good Goddamn about personalities. My concern is totally in-game, and totally political: you stifle ideological discourse, and shoot yourself in the head every time you do so.

[Scam of God]

It is clear we want the same goal; I simply want it more directly than you do. And the present power structure shuts me, and many others like me, totally out.

You could join the JCP. We're a big tent.

Absolutely not, because I consider what you do to be totally counter-productive. I don't want to raise taxes and increase the scope of the State; I want to slash taxes and give workingmen the ability to own their own businesses through technological innovation and ending subsidization. That's the same goal, but funneled through an entirely alternate paradigm from what the JCP offers.

[Scam of God]

This thread was started due to a disconnect in ideological alignment. You are correct in criticizing Marokai's flawed analysis, as is Xahar.

BTW, Rob, you need to be more active.

How would you have the atlasian political world align?

Essentially by reviving the old NLC base... consisting of economic centrists and social liberals/libertarians. A party for people like you & I, and Mr. Moderate & AndrewCT, Einzige and Mechaman, Franzl, etc. We could all work together in one party with our common ideology.

A social democratic party for people like Ebowed, Marokai, MaxQue, Barnes, etc.

A conservative party for DWTL, officepark, NC Yankee.

A "populist" party for benconstine, HW, Tmth, MJ, Dave Hawk.

Concurred and endorsed.

[Scam of God]

It reminds me a little of Zimbabwe... there is an opposition, there are elections, but realistically, only one party is going to win. The difference is that Zimbabwe's elections aren't free and fair, but the result is still the same.

That's kind of a major difference. Actually, it ruins the entire analogy.

Aye. It reminds me of Singapore, actually.

Or Japan before the last election: one Party rule owing to mass apathy.

[Scam of God]

I juist hope that Hamilton, in his clever analysis on Atlasia, will now concentrate on JCP (and DA), after having essentially piled on the PCP-RPP in the last weeks.

You people have it coming, because you people offer nothing better. I speak for a goodly amount of the forum libertarians when I say that the time for alliance is done. Fusionism is dead, and we largely want nothing more to do with you.

[Scam of God]

This thread was started due to a disconnect in ideological alignment. You are correct in criticizing Marokai's flawed analysis, as is Xahar.

BTW, Rob, you need to be more active.

How would you have the atlasian political world align?

Essentially by reviving the old NLC base... consisting of economic centrists and social liberals/libertarians. A party for people like you & I, and Mr. Moderate & AndrewCT, Einzige and Mechaman, Franzl, etc. We could all work together in one party with our common ideology.

A social democratic party for people like Ebowed, Marokai, MaxQue, Barnes, etc.

A conservative party for DWTL, officepark, NC Yankee.

A "populist" party for benconstine, HW, Tmth, MJ, Dave Hawk.

Yes, this would make sense - basically a party for each of the four quadrants, although the left/left social democrat party would still be strongest.

But tremendously weakened, certainly.