Catholic bishops this week will discuss if Biden qualifies for Communion.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion  is not actually religious.

I do not believe in God. Should I be able to "take part" in the Catholic faith?

I don't need to because the Anglicans will accept me

That’s a reasonable answer if you take the question literally but not as it was intended to be taken.

Why not? As I understand it, opposition to abortion and supporting the "sanctity of human life" is a very important part of Catholicism.

[Person Man]

https://mobile.twitter.com/johngramlich/status/1406231954584965130

The fact that 44% of Republican Catholics are OK with Biden receiving the Eucharist is actually kind of surprising, and goes to show how poorly this will be viewed in public opinion (not that the Bishops care, of course).

This really shouldn’t matter. The Church doesn’t give a heck about what anyone thinks except for God. (In Theory).

Why this is important is whether something like this can be just jammed down people’s throats or whether there will be a backlash.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

https://twitter.com/Kerry_McGuire/status/1405999604760399872?s=19

Absolutely not.

If one wants to join a tolerant high church Christian denomination, there are far better choices than the theologically challenged Episcopal Church.

I may be biased, but personally I'd recommend the ELCA.

http://metrodcelca.org

The Episcopal Church is very diverse. I am on the more theologically conservative end as an Anglo-Catholic (and am currently attending virtual worship at an American Apostolic Old Catholic Church), but how is the ELCA any less "theologically challenged" than the Episcopal Church?

[Person Man]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion  is not actually religious.

I do not believe in God. Should I be able to "take part" in the Catholic faith?

I don't need to because the Anglicans will accept me

That’s a reasonable answer if you take the question literally but not as it was intended to be taken.

Why not? As I understand it, opposition to abortion and supporting the "sanctity of human life" is a very important part of Catholicism.

It was established in a different thread by a good student of this subject that though opposing making abortion illegal made you “heterodox”, it didn’t make you a “heretic” or a non-believer.

Again, I want someone to clear this up for me. I was Christened Catholic and went to mass off and on growing up and for a while when I was  to marry into a Catholic family. They were very upset with mass sometimes with church teachings even though they were otherwise slightly conservative. I didn’t know why they still identified as Catholic.

[Alben Barkley]

As I understood it last time I read about it, this wouldn’t actually forbid priests from giving communion to Biden or anyone else, but would simply be more advisory. And the archbishop of DC supports Biden, opposes this, and said he would still allow him to take it.

Has that changed?

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

As I understood it last time I read about it, this wouldn’t actually forbid priests from giving communion to Biden or anyone else, but would simply be more advisory. And the archbishop of DC supports Biden, opposes this, and said he would still allow him to take it.

Has that changed?

No. This is purely cancel culture virtue signaling.

[7,052,770]

Considering how the abortion rate very noticeably decreased under Clinton and Obama, unlike Trump and the Bushes, someone who believes that really needs to be voting for Democratic presidents.

It is a near certainty that there will be fewer abortions in America between 2021 and 2024 than there would have been had Trump been reelected.

Maybe because Republicans took control of a lot of state legislatures and passed abortion restrictions?

LOL. It's OK to admit that Democrats have done something good.

[7,052,770]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States#CDC_surveillance_reports


Anyone who votes Republican because they want to end abortion is a total dupe.

(Note: there are other charts on that page from other organizations with the same general shape if you don't believe this one.)

[The Free North]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States#CDC_surveillance_reports


Anyone who votes Republican because they want to end abortion is a total dupe.

(Note: there are other charts on that page from other organizations with the same general shape if you don't believe this one.)

The statistical malpractice here is astounding.

[7,052,770]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States#CDC_surveillance_reports


Anyone who votes Republican because they want to end abortion is a total dupe.

(Note: there are other charts on that page from other organizations with the same general shape if you don't believe this one.)

The statistical malpractice here is astounding.

Not as astounding as the malpractice of crediting the entirety to "Republican legislatures passing restrictions," that's for sure.

This seems to be on a more consistent basis if that suits you more, but it comes from Guttmacher.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion is not actually religious.

     This is a severe misunderstanding of the Catholic position. They are not excluding Biden, but calling him to repent for his own good. Unfortunately Americans have an entirely alien dialectic concerning communion, so the Catholic rationale is lost on the people.

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

I'm not religious, but an interesting argument I've seen against this is that in the Last Supper narrative from the Bible - which serves as the basis for communion - even Judas is allowed to participate, despite the fact that he goes on to betray Jesus to Pilate, and despite Jesus being aware of Judas's coming betrayal in at least some of the Gospel narratives. If Jesus wanted even the man who would betray him to receive communion, it's hard to argue he would want it restricted for any other of his followers.

[Benjamin Frank]

This is all politics from a political organization: the U.S Catholic Church.  Organized religions generally have far more to do with politics than with religion/theology or God.

[7,052,770]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion is not actually religious.

     This is a severe misunderstanding of the Catholic position. They are not excluding Biden, but calling him to repent for his own good. Unfortunately Americans have an entirely alien dialectic concerning communion, so the Catholic rationale is lost on the people.

Biden is pushing for policies that will lower the abortion rate. He is a pro-life Catholic hero, unlike that pro-abortionist Trump who would have caused more abortions.

You are the one who needs to repent from your sins of supporting pro-abortion Republican policies.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion is not actually religious.

     This is a severe misunderstanding of the Catholic position. They are not excluding Biden, but calling him to repent for his own good. Unfortunately Americans have an entirely alien dialectic concerning communion, so the Catholic rationale is lost on the people.

Biden is pushing for policies that will lower the abortion rate. He is a pro-life Catholic hero, unlike that pro-abortionist Trump who would have caused more abortions.

You are the one who needs to repent from your sins of supporting pro-abortion Republican policies.

     Catholic (and also Orthodox) moral theology is not utilitarian, so the argument that Biden has reduced the number of abortions carries little to no weight within that paradigm so long as he supports them being legal.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

As I understood it last time I read about it, this wouldn’t actually forbid priests from giving communion to Biden or anyone else, but would simply be more advisory. And the archbishop of DC supports Biden, opposes this, and said he would still allow him to take it.

Has that changed?

No. This is purely cancel culture virtue signaling.

If anything it's less likely now than it was a week ago that the final document will mention any particular issue or even occupation at all. Gomez and Rhoades are both on the record now as wanting more general/vaguer language.

But that really doesn't matter because the bishops have lost control of the narrative, as they should have seen coming for months now.

[Person Man]

As I understood it last time I read about it, this wouldn’t actually forbid priests from giving communion to Biden or anyone else, but would simply be more advisory. And the archbishop of DC supports Biden, opposes this, and said he would still allow him to take it.

Has that changed?

No. This is purely cancel culture virtue signaling.

If anything it's less likely now than it was a week ago that the final document will mention any particular issue or even occupation at all. Gomez and Rhoades are both on the record now as wanting more general/vaguer language.

But that really doesn't matter because the bishops have lost control of the narrative, as they should have seen coming for months now.

It definitely seems like a new opportunity in identity politics where a major religion wants to make a political stance a condition of membership or at least has inadvertently given that appearance.

[Person Man]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion is not actually religious.

     This is a severe misunderstanding of the Catholic position. They are not excluding Biden, but calling him to repent for his own good. Unfortunately Americans have an entirely alien dialectic concerning communion, so the Catholic rationale is lost on the people.

Biden is pushing for policies that will lower the abortion rate. He is a pro-life Catholic hero, unlike that pro-abortionist Trump who would have caused more abortions.

You are the one who needs to repent from your sins of supporting pro-abortion Republican policies.

     Catholic (and also Orthodox) moral theology is not utilitarian, so the argument that Biden has reduced the number of abortions carries little to no weight within that paradigm so long as he supports them being legal.

That argument does weaken the entire narrative of opposing anti-poverty measures because there a possibly  more effective libertarian alternatives.

[Kingpoleon]

Not as astounding as the malpractice of crediting the entirety to "Republican legislatures passing restrictions," that's for sure.

This seems to be on a more consistent basis if that suits you more, but it comes from Guttmacher.

This is rather meaningless in the absence of variables to demonstrate why this would be the case and ignores the fact that the rates would go down even further if the Supreme Court overturned Roe, something that is less likely to happen if you vote Democratic.

[TJ in Oregon]

A few things to note here.... these are discussions of drafts of a document and as far as I can tell no one is quite sure what the final document is going to say. Also, the USCCB, strangely enough, is not an authoritative body.* So presumably liberal priests and bishops will just do whatever they want anyways. That being said, the establishment of some kind of uniform standards for when a politician should be denied communion should probably be established. If one is, most priests and bishops will probably follow it instead of making arbitrary decisions seemingly at random. I suspect when this is all done it will also include more things than just abortion. It's clear that where things are now is not very healthy and both sides of the aisle are simply planning to engage in relentless whataboutism to pwn their ideological opponents rather than to accept the Church's teachings with humility. No doubt it will be a bumpy ride and lots of people are going to insult each other on the internet, but I think in the end it will help somewhat to break the current race to the bottom.

*In the Catholic Church, authority is held in a particular diocese by a particular bishop and not to any national bishops' conference. For many years traditionalists often held that bishops' should not even exist. Also before anyone accuses them of hypocrisy, traditionalist is not a synonym for either conservative or Republican in any serious ideological sense. One of the structural things Pope Francis has tried to do is give more control to national bishops' conferences, which is somewhat controversial in certain circumstances but it unknown and irrelevant to > 99% of the people discussing this.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

A few things to note here.... these are discussions of drafts of a document and as far as I can tell no one is quite sure what the final document is going to say. Also, the USCCB, strangely enough, is not an authoritative body.* So presumably liberal priests and bishops will just do whatever they want anyways. That being said, the establishment of some kind of uniform standards for when a politician should be denied communion should probably be established. If one is, most priests and bishops will probably follow it instead of making arbitrary decisions seemingly at random. I suspect when this is all done it will also include more things than just abortion. It's clear that where things are now is not very healthy and both sides of the aisle are simply planning to engage in relentless whataboutism to pwn their ideological opponents rather than to accept the Church's teachings with humility. No doubt it will be a bumpy ride and lots of people are going to insult each other on the internet, but I think in the end it will help somewhat to break the current race to the bottom.

*In the Catholic Church, authority is held in a particular diocese by a particular bishop and not to any national bishops' conference. For many years traditionalists often held that bishops' should not even exist. Also before anyone accuses them of hypocrisy, traditionalist is not a synonym for either conservative or Republican in any serious ideological sense. One of the structural things Pope Francis has tried to do is give more control to national bishops' conferences, which is somewhat controversial in certain circumstances but it unknown and irrelevant to > 99% of the people discussing this.

Thanks for the nuanced, sensitive take, TJ.

[7,052,770]

Not as astounding as the malpractice of crediting the entirety to "Republican legislatures passing restrictions," that's for sure.

This seems to be on a more consistent basis if that suits you more, but it comes from Guttmacher.

This is rather meaningless in the absence of variables to demonstrate why this would be the case and ignores the fact that the rates would go down even further if the Supreme Court overturned Roe, something that is less likely to happen if you vote Democratic.

Spin all you want. You can't change the fact that Republicans are the "more abortion" party and Democrats are the "less abortion" party.

[7,052,770]

A few things to note here.... these are discussions of drafts of a document and as far as I can tell no one is quite sure what the final document is going to say. Also, the USCCB, strangely enough, is not an authoritative body.* So presumably liberal priests and bishops will just do whatever they want anyways. That being said, the establishment of some kind of uniform standards for when a politician should be denied communion should probably be established. If one is, most priests and bishops will probably follow it instead of making arbitrary decisions seemingly at random. I suspect when this is all done it will also include more things than just abortion. It's clear that where things are now is not very healthy and both sides of the aisle are simply planning to engage in relentless whataboutism to pwn their ideological opponents rather than to accept the Church's teachings with humility. No doubt it will be a bumpy ride and lots of people are going to insult each other on the internet, but I think in the end it will help somewhat to break the current race to the bottom.

There's no way this is going to end well, unless you think anyone who isn't a Far Right Trumpist leaving the church, leaving the remnant ideologically pure to be a good outcome. Any denial of the Eucharist because of political issues as an outrageous and unprecedented attack on people's free thought.

And we all know that Biden personally opposes abortion - it would be one thing if he were encouraging more abortions or performing them himself. But when Biden is pursuing policies that will reduce abortions, attempting to follow his morals in a way that works even though it doesn't meet the approval of narrow-minded partisan out-of-touch know-it-alls with an axe to grind, this becomes an ENTIRELY POLITICAL attack on him that reasonable Catholics who aren't far right aren't going to forgive. If the "deny Democratz the Eucharist!!!" movement ever goes beyond a couple of rogue bishops, it's the end of Catholicism in America.

[Badger]

I don't see the issue with Bishops being Catholic and following Catholic doctrine.

Because The Bishop's enforcement and definition of so-called Catholic Doctrine is selective as hell.

I mean, IIRC abortion is seen as considerably worse than what Republicans are doing.  There's also the issue that the Catholic Church used to support the death penalty, but never supported abortion.

Unfortunately that's simply empirically incorrect. I can tell you both first-hand following the church's progression both when I was Catholic and has a formula that the church has always always always always whispered its opposition towards miserly anti-christian government policy set screw the poor and contract efforts of social justice of peace, while bellowing from megaphone conservative partisan issues like abortion, gay marriage, and euthanasia. If they were truly even handed or even close to it such subjects, I could respect the church a heck of a lot more at night I can I can well, no, four Bears theological issues still wouldn't - - be a member of the church. But they really have been absolutely happy with this double standard which is according to the preachings of Jesus himself, theologically unsound as hell for the last 40 years. Frankly, when we use the church's doctrinal history goes back Centuries with only brief periods of Reform. But that's another subject.

Also, more fundamentally when one looks at the current makeup of regular churchgoers and its primary donors, if the American Bishops or anywhere near as even-handed in their condemnation of policies that defy Jesus's teachings about the poor and the outcast situations like a portion of homosexuality, the pews on Sunday and, even more importantly, American churches bank accounts, would be markedly diminished.

But if the Catholic Church is right about abortion, then it's the most evil thing happening in America today.  How could anything else come close to it?

     Nothing could, of course. The people drawing an equivalence don't follow Catholic priorities, so their complaints of alleged hypocrisy merely amount to a difference in moral compasses. The bishops don't prioritize their opinions, nor should they.

The absolute hell they don't. One could argue that the prioritization of their opinions is Justified on such and such grounds. But to argue that they don't prioritize their opinions on certain issues more than others it is flat-out two plus two equals five factually incorrect.

[Badger]

Any religious person who would deny someone else a part in their religion  is not actually religious.

I do not believe in God. Should I be able to "take part" in the Catholic faith?

I don't need to because the Anglicans will accept me

That’s a reasonable answer if you take the question literally but not as it was intended to be taken.

Why not? As I understand it, opposition to abortion and supporting the "sanctity of human life" is a very important part of Catholicism.

Because it is by no means the soul or arguably the most important part of Catholic Doctrine, even though the American Bishops and hierarchy treat abortion as such, with homosexuality and euthanasia close seconds and thirds.

Simply put, there's a pretty damned obvious gap between teachings of Jesus versus the priorities of the hierarchy. One can argue about the importance of abortion, but the absolute pre-eminent litmus test been made by the hierarchy is rather devoid of biblical or even historical basis when one looks in the early Church's position on abortion. This is simply put a heavily conservative patriarchy instituting what at the end of the day is their own personal views of what is most important in Catholicism. Granted, that's not an entirely unrelated do their jobs as Bishops of the church, but let's not pretend that there isn't more than a little hypocrisy and cherry-picking on the hierarchies part.

Cafeteria Catholics the right wing parishioners and clergy like to complain about are very much present on the politically and theologically conservative end of the spectrum, just as they are on the left. It's simply that Conservative Catholics don't see the distinction when their choice of what dishes they prefer and don't is nevertheless just as Stark